Author Topic: Philly police threaten to shoot legal gun carrier. (Read 2475 times)

Lost Farmboy · « **Reply #30 on:** May 17, 2011, 03:21:35 PM »

Quote from: Spirithawk on May 17, 2011, 02:24:12 PM

I've found it best to just cooperate with an officer. Even when I think he's wrong. Best to let your attorney do the arguing for you later. Argue or don't cooperate with them and you just give them more ammo to nail you with. Not much sense in that. A false arrest or harassment suit will get you farther than your digging a hole that previously didn't exist and which definitely turns the tide making you look the bad guy.

Wisdom!

When I was in Private Investigation school the instructor said, “ if you ever think about arresting somebody just think 33.3 % of every thing you make for the rest of your life.”

S.S. · « **Reply #31 on:** May 17, 2011, 04:41:47 PM »

This kind of crap is why I live in a small town in Georgia.
The police know that every body has a gun. And they also know
that just about all of us would be behind them if some scumbags
came looking for trouble. I know all of the police here by name.
The places mentioned above have Anti-Gun Politicians and
the police enforce their agenda. that does not happen here.
Especially with the fact that the Mayor and my wife went to
school together. Small communities are great places to live.

williamlayton · « **Reply #32 on:** May 17, 2011, 11:15:31 PM »

There is real delima here.
There is no tape, only audio, We really don't know if he provoked the situation or not.
We do know that he was trolling. Sometimes you get more than you ask for.
I am not suggesting the cops acted correctly, I am suggesting that he was prepared and was trolling.
Blessings

Old Fart · « **Reply #33 on:** May 18, 2011, 04:09:20 AM »

Quote from: Spirithawk on May 17, 2011, 02:24:12 PM

I've found it best to just cooperate with an officer. Even when I think he's wrong. Best to let your attorney do the arguing for you later.

Hey this makes too much sense.

Where's the fun in that?

beerbelly · « **Reply #34 on:** May 18, 2011, 05:35:25 AM »

I've found it best to just cooperate with an officer.

Yep, you should give up your constructional rights with out a word!

nw_hunter · « **Reply #35 on:** May 18, 2011, 06:51:17 AM »

Quote from: powderman on May 16, 2011, 04:47:10 PM

Quote
http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stossel/blog/2011/05/16/philly-police-harass-threaten-shoot-man-legally-carrying-gun?test=latestnews

Although he was legally licensed to carry openly the police tormented and humiliated him. After finding out they were wrong they turned him loose. POWDERMAN.

I see wrongs on both sides of the picture.
The guy was clearly trolling........How many people walk around with recorders in their pockets turned on while shopping in a auto parts store? The cop handled the situation badly, and the guy baited him! And before someone asks..... NO! I don't believe in the law baiting either.

yellowtail3 · « **Reply #36 on:** May 18, 2011, 06:57:28 AM »

Quote from: nw_hunter on May 18, 2011, 06:51:17 AM

I see wrongs on both sides of the picture.
The guy was clearly trolling........How many people walk around with recorders in their pockets turned on while shopping in a auto parts store? The cop handled the situation badly, and the guy baited him! And before someone asks..... NO! I don't believe in the law baiting either.

Neither do I - I've children, I don't need to get shot - but here's a problem: how else do you document that standard LEO behavior? There's lots out there who'll dismiss complaints of bad LEO behavior by saying, "that's not true! Yer a cop hater!" or somesuch. So, some go out and get proof. Cameras and the web have not been kind to LEO's rep - who's fault is that?

Spirithawk · « **Reply #37 on:** May 18, 2011, 08:10:22 AM »

Quote from: beerbelly on May 18, 2011, 05:35:25 AM

I've found it best to just cooperate with an officer.

Yep, you should give up your constructional rights with out a word!

Where did I say you should give them up? It's just that a wise man choses where and when he fights. Arguing with an officer loses the fight for you before you can even get started. Better to not give him any more excuse than he already imagines and take it up later when you actually have a chance of winning. I don't fight to lose. If you can't see the wisdom in that I hope you have someone to visit you in jail. One thing I do since I have a CCW Permit, and that I highly recomend, is that I always carry a Highway Patrol booklet on Conceal Cary Laws with me. It can save any argument by clearly stating what the laws are. Any copy of laws on conceal or open carry is wise to have handy. Might not always save a conflict but it sure helps.

As to the man in question, I agree he was trolling. Kinda obvious. How many of us walk around with a tape recorder in our pocket? I've no sympathy for him. He looked for trouble and found it! Maybe he was just trying to prove a point. Who knows but him? More likely he just wanted his name in the news. He just seemed to take it a bit far to be just trying to prove a point. Any way you look at it it was handled poorly on both ends.

beerbelly · « **Reply #38 on:** May 18, 2011, 09:01:57 AM »

As to the man in question, I agree he was trolling. Kinda obvious. How many of us walk around with a tape recorder in our pocket? I've no sympathy for him. He looked for trouble and found it!

And when a cop grabs you up and beats the hell out of you for no reason or possibly kills you. I will have no sympathy for you. Remember if they can do it to him, they can do it to you!

Spirithawk · « **Reply #39 on:** May 18, 2011, 11:25:54 AM »

Quote from: beerbelly on May 18, 2011, 09:01:57 AM

As to the man in question, I agree he was trolling. Kinda obvious. How many of us walk around with a tape recorder in our pocket? I've no sympathy for him. He looked for trouble and found it!

And when a cop grabs you up and beats the hell out of you for no reason or possibly kills you. I will have no sympathy for you. Remember if they can do it to him, they can do it to you!

First, I don't recall asking for your sympathy. Secondly, I'm 57 years old and it hasn't ever happened yet. An airplane might fall out of the sky and hit me too but I'm not going to spend my life worrying about it just to please you. If it ever does happen you can gloat then but untill it does you're simply blowing smoke. I've had cops give me unecesary grief but I sure didn't walk away unharmed by shooting my mouth off! I got my payback by using my brain not my mouth. I supose the wisdom that it's better to avoid trouble than to purposely cause it and then have to deal with it is lost on you.

wreckhog · « **Reply #40 on:** May 18, 2011, 11:32:07 AM »

The guy was trolling. If I had to guess, he has been doing it for some time and gotten all sorts of feedback from the public, the cops, etc. Then he ran into the right cop on the right day, and now he gets his 2A test case, and maybe a lawsuit payout. Kinda like Rosa Parks going to the front of the bus.

wreckhog · « **Reply #41 on:** May 18, 2011, 11:42:14 AM »

It did not take a lot of searching. His internet name is ViperGTS19801 and there is a LOT out there from/about him. For years. Anyway, open carry and confrontations with cops seem to be his life. He thrives on stirring up things.

http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/110571-another-lovely-interaction.html#post1325949

DDZ · « **Reply #42 on:** May 18, 2011, 01:17:58 PM »

In Pa you are legally able to carry open without a license. Philly decided to make their own law, and their law says you can carry open, but you need a license to do so. The guy was breaking no law and minding his own business. The problem was the cops did not know the law, and their actions and words proved it. I don't care if he was trolling or not. The cops had no right to pull a gun on him and hand cuff him. He was doing nothing wrong, nor had he broke any law. If he thinks he can protect himself better carrying open, it is his RIGHT to do so.
Shame on the cops for not even knowing their own cities laws, and acting like thugs.

Spirithawk · « **Reply #43 on:** May 18, 2011, 01:50:33 PM »

Quote from: DDZ on May 18, 2011, 01:17:58 PM

In Pa you are legally able to carry open without a license. Philly decided to make their own law, and their law says you can carry open, but you need a license to do so. The guy was breaking no law and minding his own business. The problem was the cops did not know the law, and their actions and words proved it. I don't care if he was trolling or not. The cops had no right to pull a gun on him and hand cuff him. He was doing nothing wrong, nor had he broke any law. If he thinks he can protect himself better carrying open, it is his RIGHT to do so.
Shame on the cops for not even knowing their own cities laws, and acting like thugs.

Yes, but just because he said he had a liscense doesn't mean a thing. Just how was the officer supose to know if he was telling the truth or not? After all, the officer's life could have very much been in jepordy. If the man had simply complied at the begining the matter could have easily been cleared up and likely things wouldn't have gotten farther out of hand. Just as he had the right to carry openly, so did the officer have the right to check his liscense. But, as you note yourself, the guy had a habit of pushing the issue. By not complying right off the bat and obviously deliberately antagonizing the officer he was a major cause of the whole thing. Both could have handled it better. However the cop probably should not have pulled his gun from the start. Then to, if he hadn't, and the guy was a criminal, I'm not sure the officer would have wanted a quick draw contest. I imagine he wanted to go home after his shift.

jimster · « **Reply #44 on:** May 18, 2011, 02:54:11 PM »

Quote

It's just that a wise man choses where and when he fights.

Got to agree with Spirithawk on this one. Sure cops are supposed to know the laws. But it works out best if you let them arrest you, maybe they will even tackle you and rough you up some, but just go along with it and don't say a thing or argue. Any lawyer worth his salt will take a fair fee and go for the gold. You don't need a camera...they got those most times on their cars. Once you extract a wad of money from the city or county or state, you will have some new guns if you want. After it's over, you and others will be able to carry openly at least in THAT area, so you not only won the fight...you made a big change in a small area. I would not recommend winking at the same cop when you pass him by carrying your piece after all that is over...but it would be tempting...

Hooker · « **Reply #45 on:** May 18, 2011, 02:55:36 PM »

Spirithawk I'm with you on not agitating police officers I always treat them with respect until they prove they don't deserve it.
But let me clear something up these are the words from the news article (Fiorino wheeled and saw Sgt. Michael Dougherty aiming a handgun at him.)
No quick draw needed he already had the drop on the man. It's a shame he didn't follow that up with some professionalism.

Pat

Spirithawk · « **Reply #46 on:** May 18, 2011, 03:14:15 PM »

My main point is that if you fight with the officer, verbaly or physicly, you are going to lose. Right or wrong you will lose. Use your brain and pick the time and place such as in a courtroom.

Lost Farmboy · « **Reply #47 on:** May 18, 2011, 03:27:05 PM »

Quote from: jimster on May 18, 2011, 02:54:11 PM

Quote
It's just that a wise man choses where and when he fights.

Got to agree with Spirithawk on this one. Sure cops are supposed to know the laws. But it works out best if you let them arrest you, maybe they will even tackle you and rough you up some, but just go along with it and don't say a thing or argue. Any lawyer worth his salt will take a fair fee and go for the gold. You don't need a camera...they got those most times on their cars. Once you extract a wad of money from the city or county or state, you will have some new guns if you want. After it's over, you and others will be able to carry openly at least in THAT area, so you not only won the fight...you made a big change in a small area. I would not recommend winking at the same cop when you pass him by carrying your piece after all that is over...but it would be tempting...

+1

beerbelly · « **Reply #48 on:** May 19, 2011, 06:54:01 AM »

Most places have laws that will not allow you to sue government or it's employees. others that don't have laws restricting the amount of compensation you may receive. Here in Jefferson county Alabama the max is $100,000. You are not going to get a top notch lawyer where the max is that low!
They have the cards stacked against you!

DDZ · « **Reply #49 on:** May 19, 2011, 11:41:29 AM »

Yes I agree also that Fiorino should have, by all means did exactly what the cop ordered him to do. My point is he should have never been harassed like he was in the first place. Why did the cops pull a gun on him before he even said anything? At the onset of the altercation Fiorino politely offered to show the officer his license. If the officer was doing it professionally, most likely nothing else would have happened. Oh yeah, I forgot the bone heads didn't know the cities laws, which is no excuse.
I wonder what percentage of criminals carry their piece open? I'm guessing there are not any, but the cops tried to make Fiorino a criminal because he was carrying open. The police were at fault in this case. Yes Fiorino was also, but that was after the fact.

I guess this kind of thing has become the SOP for Philly police.
http://www.usacarry.com/philadelphia-man-carrying-gun-at-home-shot-by-off-duty-cop/
Taylor may not get a chance to fight his case in the courts.

Spirithawk · « **Reply #50 on:** May 19, 2011, 12:02:27 PM »

Crap can certainly happen and no cops aren't always right. Years back my wife and I were sitting at home around 9pm watching tv. She glanced out the window and said someone was snooping around with a flashlight. I went to the door, opened it and stepped out to see who was there. Not particularly a wise thing to do. We lived 23 miles out in the sticks and normaly I'd have stepped out with a pistol or shotgun under the circumstances. I was confronted by two men, cammo pants, black t-shirts, both holding a flashlight in one hand and a pistol in the other. They demanded to know my name and aparently didn't believe me when I told them. They allowed me to reach for my wallet and show them my driver's license. Then they asked for a guy I'd never heard of. Told them as much. Turns out they had the wrong address! I suspected they were LE but they could just as easily been anyone at all. Then they gave me crap because THEY were at the wrong address. Said the numbers on my mailbox should be bigger though they were plainly readable. My problem with the situation was magnified because they never once identified themselves nor did they ever apologise for coming onto my property with guns drawn. It wasn't untill they turned to leave that I saw Sheriff Dept. stenciled on the back of their shirts. Now, had I acted normally? Stepped out with a gun? At least one of them and probably me would have gotten shot! No ifs, ands, nor maybes about it. I'm not sure if it would have even been wise to stay inside and dial 911. They had pistols drawn and cocked from the start and for some odd reason didn't wish to identify themselve's. They'd have probably kicked in the door and a shootout resulted then. I called the Sheriff's Office and registered a complaint but nothing ever came of it. I did paint my address big enough a blind man could read it though!

45-70.gov · « **Reply #51 on:** May 19, 2011, 12:07:33 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFhZ-G1Pb1Q

not even safe to carry in your home

with the rambo cops ... saving us from the evil drug dealers

Spirithawk · « **Reply #52 on:** May 19, 2011, 12:18:06 PM »

Quote from: 45-70.gov on May 19, 2011, 12:07:33 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFhZ-G1Pb1Q

not even safe to carry in your home

with the rambo cops ... saving us from the evil drug dealers

That's exactly what I mean. That could have easily been me!

45-70.gov · « **Reply #53 on:** May 19, 2011, 12:37:23 PM »

4th ammendment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCpzbHdPQQc&feature=related
[ some profanity....make minors leave the room...play later..or don't play]

DDZ · « **Reply #54 on:** May 19, 2011, 12:41:39 PM »

Spirithawk, that could have had a very bad ending. Thank God it ended peacefully. I would think the police were not very smart walking into someones property, with flashlights and guns drawn, unannounced. I figure if they make a habit of that, they themselves may end up getting shot. I know the majority of police officers do use good judgement, and have a very tough job in today's world, but the ones that don't, need to be reprimanded for their bad decisions. The only time that happens though is if their actions are on video, or a witness is present. Other than that, its a he did this, and I did that type thing, and the police will always win when it comes to that.

DDZ · « **Reply #55 on:** May 19, 2011, 01:06:09 PM »

When the police harass you, break down your door, for no reason what so ever, just submit to them, then fight your battle in a court against corrupt liberal judges that are all for a police state. That is after you spend a bunch of money hiring a lawyer. We will be a full blown police state one day, because America continues to elect people that are turning it into one. Stuff happens like this slowly so as not to enrage the masses. Then one day it will become the norm. Especially if we continue to blame law abiding citizens for not doing the right thing when they are wrongly harassed or shot by police that think they can do as they please. Our Constitution is slowly becoming just a wad of paper.

williamlayton · « **Reply #56 on:** May 19, 2011, 02:57:26 PM »

Same thing happened to me one night.
Luckily I looked thru the peephole and then put the shotgun against the wall.
Wrong address--not even the right street.
I will give the a e-minus for effort though, the street they were looking for did begin with an A as did mine.
Blessings

jimster · « **Reply #57 on:** May 19, 2011, 03:11:24 PM »

Quote

Most places have laws that will not allow you to sue government or it's employees. others that don't have laws restricting the amount of compensation you may receive. Here in Jefferson county Alabama the max is $100,000. You are not going to get a top notch lawyer where the max is that low!

For one thing, you won't need a very good lawyer...open carry is legal or it is not. For another thing...100K is more than enough...most people in the Detriot area that were doing this was more than satified with several thousand...or even less...it was more than enough, and the Detroit police got the message from what we heard around here. And more people hit the street with open carry in those area's. Even if hardly no money is involved and they just pay for your trouble and lawyer...you still win. You can open carry in that place without more arrests.

Heck...you may not even need a lawyer...open carry is legal or it's not. How hard is that? You can't lose...unless you fight with the officers and mess up something else.

beerbelly · « **Reply #58 on:** May 19, 2011, 05:52:06 PM »

You live in a dream world. I have seen the cops sued several times and never saw them lose. The judge is on their team!

tallyho · « **Reply #59 on:** May 19, 2011, 06:45:29 PM »

Here's another one:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/05/18/eighty-four-year-old-man-allegedly-beaten-by-police-officer-after-calling-911/