Author Topic: Confederate Cannon  (Read 2490 times)

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Offline bluelake

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Confederate Cannon
« on: May 16, 2011, 06:20:22 PM »
Several years ago, an old confederate cannon was found buried in my hometown in northern lower Michigan.  The muzzle was gone, but the cannon was mostly there.  The fellow who was in charge of having it restored, Fred Knoodle, invited me to see it in his garage; sadly, shortly after the cannon was dedicated in 2008, Fred was killed by a car while he was riding his bike.  Here are stories on the cannon that ran in my hometown newspaper: http://articles.petoskeynews.com/2008-06-16/cannon_24028444  http://articles.petoskeynews.com/2008-06-24/union-veterans_24028414

A few pics I took when I visited Fred's place in 2004:
















Offline keith44

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Re: Confederate Cannon
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2011, 08:20:33 PM »
Wow, what a find.  Looks like the barrel burst when fired the last time.  Do you have any pics of the "restored" cannon?  I'd be curious to see close ups of the fractured and new metal areas.  I've seen cast iron plate welded and braised but never a tube.
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Offline RocklockI

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Re: Confederate Cannon
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2011, 08:48:24 PM »
Wow is the word ! It looks like a shell exploded while being fired .
Darn Parrot guns ;D

Thanks for those photos  bluelake 8)

Gary
eta I see some faint lettering on a trunion ,were there any other markings ?

I sure hope they didn't 'weld anything to that tube ! yikes !!! :'(
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline bluelake

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Re: Confederate Cannon
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2011, 08:52:43 PM »
I have pics of the restored cannon somewhere, but I can't find them right off.  I'll post them after I find 'em.  I think the markings you see in the one pic are the only ones, IIRC.





Offline keith44

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Re: Confederate Cannon
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2011, 08:58:38 PM »

Gary
eta I see some faint lettering on a trunion ,were there any other markings ?

looks like it says ... machine works or something close to that, the letters "c h i n  w o r k" are easily visible
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Offline RocklockI

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Re: Confederate Cannon
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2011, 09:08:00 PM »
kieth44 I think you nailed it ! 8) I would like to see what sort of rifling is in it .

Maybe a closer study could reveal just what happened to cause the burst .
I think that the walls of a shell collapsed on firing and the shell exploded in the tube .
Gary
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline keith44

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Re: Confederate Cannon
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2011, 09:19:05 PM »
Gary, hard to say for sure, but with 200% zoom on the top pic it looks like it has either very wide lands, and a very slow twist, or it is a smoothbore.  Again can't tell for sure, at 200% the pic pixilates too much to be certain.  It really does look like a rupture from either an exploding shell or possibly an obstruction.
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Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Confederate Cannon
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2011, 09:45:17 PM »
     Before we quit tonight at about 8 o'clock, I asked Mike to take a look at those letters on the trunnion face.  He agrees with me that they spell TREDEGAR MACHINE WORKS, the largest wartime foundry producing ordnance for the Confederate States of America in Richmond, Virginia.

     To see it more clearly, you can copy the image and SAVE AS to a convenient file and then bump it up in size until it fuzzes out, then back off one magnification.  As for cause, we will go with an obstruction although faulty ammunition was a major problem for southern gunners.  Never heard of one of this type being rifled, but it's not impossible.  12 Pdr. Simple Shell was a pretty sturdy type of munition and not likely to crack or collapse in the bore.  Most likely an obstruction or maybe a shrunken powder train in a wooden fuse from repeated wetting and re-drying.  This type of defect in a fuse can have cracks that propagate through the powder train matrix and allow the flame to travel quickly along them much like the hollow spaces in quick match do.

Tracy & Mike

Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline bluelake

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Re: Confederate Cannon
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2011, 10:36:20 PM »
As mentioned in both articles,
Quote
Research by Robert Finch Camp No. 14 revealed that the artillery piece had been cast at the Augusta, Ga., arsenal. Until the howitzer was found in Petoskey, the Tredegar Foundry in Richmond, Va., was thought to be the south's only source of such cannons.

Also, I found the pics after the restoration.


Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Confederate Cannon
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2011, 12:27:05 AM »
Thanks for opening an interesting topic, bluelake. I think some of the folks who belong to Robert Finch Camp 14 did some fine research work on this cannon. What I saw when I saved the pic of the trunnion face is 'FOUNDRY' (barely), then a space which may contain the word 'and' (which I can't make out at all), then definitely 'MACHINE WORKS' all in capitals, and horizontally bisecting the trunnion face; I think there is also print above these markings, but I can't make it out. I believe that they're right about this cannon being manufactured by the Augusta (GA) Arsenal, also known as the 'Augusta Foundry and Machine Works' which was commanded by Col. George Washington Rains. This foundry manufactured cannon, projectiles, and black powder. I think this gun is a Confederate banded smoothbore.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline bluelake

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Re: Confederate Cannon
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2011, 01:23:33 AM »
I seem to remember hearing (I think from Fred Knoodle) that the city of Augusta, Georgia had asked that the city of Petoskey give them the cannon, but the request was refused. 



Offline dominick

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Re: Confederate Cannon
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2011, 03:08:40 AM »
Nice restoration.  Is that one of those metal carriages that Paulson or Steen sells?

Offline bluelake

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Re: Confederate Cannon
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2011, 03:43:34 AM »
I'm not sure where they got the carriage from; all it says in the article is
Quote
The cannon barrel has been placed on a replica Civil War Period No. 2 field artillery carriage.



Offline Artilleryman

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Re: Confederate Cannon
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2011, 06:26:22 AM »
From the article this is identified as a Iron Napoleon and that it was restored to a number two carriage.  This would make it a 12 pdr smoothbore.  The stories I heard about this gun was that it was a Parrott and that it burst during a celebration sometime during the 1900s.
Norm Gibson, 1st SC Vol., ACWSA

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Confederate Cannon
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2011, 08:00:14 AM »
'Confederate iron Napoleon' made by 'Tredegar Iron Works' in 1865.

http://markerhunter.wordpress.com/2009/01/05/cs-iron-napoleon/

Photos taken at 'Petersburg National Battlefield' by Craig Swain




RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline keith44

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Re: Confederate Cannon
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2011, 02:02:22 PM »
From my reference in the back of the DGW catalogue, there were no "major" foundries using machine works in their name between apr 1861 and 1865.  There were two who used the word Iron in their names.  On the confederate side was Tredegar Iron Works listed in Richmond, Va.  On the Union side was Phoenix Iron Co, listed in Phoenixville, Pa.  Total production for Phoenix Iron was 857 for the time period listed.  While Tredegar produced 1,043.  However, the award for greatest number produced must go to West Point Foundry with 1,545 total cannons produced.

Assuming DGW has accurate information I am betting this particular cannon that is at the top of this thread is from a minor foundry or was comissioned from a forgien supplier.
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Offline bluelake

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Re: Confederate Cannon
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2011, 03:24:14 PM »
The cannon was evidently made at the arsenal at Augusta, Georgia, which had been a U.S. arsenal until it was turned over to the Confederacy at the outbreak of the war.


Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Confederate Cannon
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2011, 07:02:32 PM »
I was away from home, so didn't have access to my copy of the 'National Registry of Known Surviving CW Artillery' till this evening. 

Type & Model - 12-pdr Confederate iron Napoleon
Foundry - Augusta
Reg# - blank
Insp - blank
Fdy # - blank
YR - blank
Weight - blank
MTL - I
City - Petoskey
St - MI
Comments - muzzle off/ Harbor Springs
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline keith44

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Re: Confederate Cannon
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2011, 08:21:28 PM »
Any ideas about what appears to be the stamped letters that seem to say ...machine works...?
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Offline GGaskill

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Re: Confederate Cannon
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2011, 08:56:57 PM »
I would agree with FOUNDRY AND MACHINE WORKS as above but it requires some imagination to be satisfied.  Are there any pix of known Augusta production that would show these markings more clearly so we could compare the eroded version with something more clearly marked?
GG
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Offline keith44

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Re: Confederate Cannon
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2011, 09:14:39 PM »
I guess the real problem I have with the markings is there were no machines (per se) that would require a machine works.  Since this is a smooth bore a rifling machine cannot even be atributed.  I wonder if it passed through a machine shop some where, some time and was ruptured by a more contemporary would be cannoneer.  (or should I say wanna be cannoneer

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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Confederate Cannon
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2011, 09:41:24 PM »
I would agree with FOUNDRY AND MACHINE WORKS as above but it requires some imagination to be satisfied.  Are there any pix of known Augusta production that would show these markings more clearly so we could compare the eroded version with something more clearly marked?

There are 11 known 'Confederate iron Napoleons' extant, and 10 of those were manufactured by Tredegar Foundry/Iron Works in Richmond, VA, so we're limited to studying this one example (at least so far). 
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Confederate Cannon
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2011, 10:08:57 PM »
Augusta must have produced other barrels and likely marked them with the same marking device or procedure.  Do we have any examples of any Augusta production or is this their only product?

Regarding machines, there must have been lathes to drill the bore and something to machine the trunnions so it seems unreasonable to think there were no machines present.  Unless that work was subcontracted out to some other factory.
GG
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Offline bluelake

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Re: Confederate Cannon
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2011, 10:59:55 PM »
I wonder if it passed through a machine shop some where, some time and was ruptured by a more contemporary would be cannoneer.  (or should I say wanna be cannoneer)

The supposition I heard was it was fired for some holiday event (as shown on the plaque, it might have been fired for an event in 1899) and ruptured.  I suppose it's possible if one went through the newspaper archives of the time it might have been written about.  I know there are rolls and rolls of microfiche at the Petoskey Public Library, but it's all un-indexed as far as I know, so it would not be an easy task.



Offline bluelake

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Re: Confederate Cannon
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2011, 11:17:55 PM »
I found this info on foundries in the South:

Quote
While Tredegar is the most famous of all the Confederate foundries, there were a great many others. There were over fifty different foundries that existed, some of which are known today only from the name engraved on surviving guns. Others have no surviving guns, or produced only ammunition (Daniel 85-90). At least nineteen of these existed before the war, although not all were producing cannons (Ibid. 3-70).

In addition to the various private foundries, the Confederate government owned five different cannon foundries. The principal foundry in the west were the ones at Augusta, Macon, and Columbus, Georgia. Part of the reason for this was the need for suppliers closer to the armies, as by 1862 most of the private western foundries had been captured by the Union (Daniel 61-62). Tredegar could have been a sixth, as the owner offered it to the Confederate government shortly after the fall of Fort Sumpter. The government, however, declined the offer and Tredegar remained in private hands throughout the war (Hazlett 4).

The Charleston Arsenal was one of the first Federal foundries to be taken by the Confederacy. While it produced very few actual cannons, it issued 16,000 rounds of ammunition for the heavy artillery and made three million small arms cartridges. It also repaired small arms and heavy cannons. While it was possible that the cannons produced in Charleston were sub-contracted to a local foundry, it is more likely that they were produced at the Arsenal itself (Daniel 66).

The Columbus Arsenal was originally in Baton Rouge. When New Orleans fell in April 1862, it was moved to Columbus, Georgia. It produced Napoleons and 9-Pounder smoothbores for the Confederate army, at least eighty different guns (Daniel 68-69). The Macon Arsenal was originally the Findlay Iron Works until it was bought by the Confederate government. Until then it had produced railroad components, including car wheels and steam engines. By 1862, it was producing 6-Pounders and 12-Pounder Howitzers. After November 1862 it was producing Napoleons and Parrotts (Ibid. 70).

The last government foundry had very little to do with field artillery. The Selma Naval Gun Foundry was built in Selma, Alabama. It began casting artillery in 1863, concentrating on the Brooke gun. It also produced nineteen mortars, twenty 6-Pounders and at least twelve 30-Pounder Parrotts. Of the Brooke gun, no less than 102 were produced, in much the same manner as the Parrott. The primary difference was that the Brooke had a second breech band over the first, although it had the same habit of bursting. In one incident, a Brooke burst at Mobile on its 55th shot. To help ascertain the strength of the iron that was used at the foundry, the 6-Pounders were all burst on purpose (Daniel 75-80).

http://www.iusb.edu/~journal/static/volumes/2001/stanage.html

There was also another mention I found of Augusta:

Quote
Confederate Napoleon rimbase juncture. Confederate Napoleons produced at Augusta Arsenal and by Leeds & Co. utilized cylindrical rimbases that joined the barrel with a sharp corner as illustrated above for Federal bronze Napoleons. All other Confederate Napoleons utilized faired rimbases with the smooth barrel juncture illustrated here.

http://robinsonsbattery.org/67215.html





Offline bluelake

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Re: Confederate Cannon
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2011, 11:29:11 PM »
Augusta must have produced other barrels and likely marked them with the same marking device or procedure.  Do we have any examples of any Augusta production or is this their only product?

Regarding machines, there must have been lathes to drill the bore and something to machine the trunnions so it seems unreasonable to think there were no machines present.  Unless that work was subcontracted out to some other factory.

This is from the Augusta State University site:

Quote
In 1860, during "Nullification Troubles", the U.S. government re-enforced the arsenal with 22,000 muskets and rifles along with an artillery unit commanded by Captain Arnold Elzey. When Georgia seceded from the Union on January 19, 1861, Governor Joseph E. Brown called for the arsenal's surrender, a demand backed by a thousand local militiamen.

Confederate President Jefferson Davis charged Col. George Washington with establishing a powder works which would supply all of the Confederate ground forces. He chose Augusta and built the Confederate Powder Works, alongside the Augusta Canal and the Savannah River. It became the second largest powder manufactory in the world, turning out about 30,000 pounds of powder in a single day. Col. Rains commanded the powder works, the arsenal, and other city works, which contributed to the war effort. The arsenal also produced cavalry equipment, field gear, bayonet scabbards, and cartridge boxes.


Fanning Hall during arsenal days.
About 30 companies of soldiers from our area trained at the arsenal, and more than 2,000 men were sent into active duty. A hospital was constructed on the site, and wounded Confederate solders were treated here. (The Academy of Richmond County was closed during the war, and their building was also used as a hospital.)

In early spring of 1865, the South surrendered, and in May, the arsenal was surrendered to the United States government.

http://www.aug.edu/public_relations/history/surrend.html




Offline bluelake

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Re: Confederate Cannon
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2011, 11:30:35 PM »
This summer, when I visit back to my hometown, I'll take more pictures of the cannon.



Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Confederate Cannon
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2011, 12:18:04 AM »
I would agree with FOUNDRY AND MACHINE WORKS as above but it requires some imagination to be satisfied.  Are there any pix of known Augusta production that would show these markings more clearly so we could compare the eroded version with something more clearly marked?
Augusta must have produced other barrels and likely marked them with the same marking device or procedure.  Do we have any examples of any Augusta production or is this their only product?

Regarding machines, there must have been lathes to drill the bore and something to machine the trunnions so it seems unreasonable to think there were no machines present.  Unless that work was subcontracted out to some other factory.

I misunderstood your first post, I thought you were asking if there was any photo documentation of marked trunnions on any other 'Confederate iron Napoleons' that might have been made in a production run by the 'Augusta Foundry' (I doubt if they made many of these iron cannon). If there were a number of these cannon made there, then I'd say the chances would be likely that the trunnions would be marked the same way, but concerning the marks on other artillery this foundry manufactured, I think it might be more reasonable to change that 'likely' to 'possibly'.

I bookmarked this from the late lamented "cwartillery.org" website which contained a lot of good stuff, and had some worthy contributors like Wayne Stark, Warren Ripley, Chuck Ten Brink, etc.

Confederate Cannon
"No known Confederate army or navy regulation specified the marking of cannon. Therefore, Confederate foundry marking practices were inconsistent. Registry numbers were not always assigned or required. Bronze Napoleons cast by Augusta, Columbus, and Macon Arsenals have nearly all markings on muzzle faces, including Registry numbers, much like the U.S. Army during and after the Civil War. Cannon made by Leeds, Reading, Tredegar, and some others generally reflect pre-Civil War Army marking practice. Other than the three arsenals mentioned, however, none consistently assigned Registry numbers differing from its own internal foundry numbers. With the exception of some Brooke rifles bearing their own series of Registry numbers, a four digit foundry number on the upper muzzle face served as the identification number of cannon cast by Tredegar. Many surviving cannon tubes, considered to be authentic and of Confederate origin, bear no markings."

"Field artillery weapons of the Civil War" By James C. Hazlett, Edwin Olmstead, M. Hume Parks
See p. 107, Table 7.1, the first foundry listed.
http://books.google.com/books?id=twcQGSi1F7QC&pg=PA107&dq=production+of+confederate+napoleons+1861-1865&hl=en&ei=_qzUTdjdHIqCtge4y_CBCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=production%20of%20confederate%20napoleons%201861-1865&f=false

Now mind you, these are numbers on 'Confederate bronze Napoleons' which this foundry manufactured; in fact other than the one iron Napoleon, these are the only other artillery pieces that I can find that they did make during the war. Evidently a few more of these cannon have been discovered since the writing of this book, because the "Registry" now lists 49 known examples. The majority of these 49 pieces are marked (somewhere) with a CSA registry number followed by AF for Augusta Foundry. 

Well George, the question now is: How big is your curiosity for wanting to know if any of these bronze cannon have the same markings on a trunnion face as the iron Napoleon? Because the only thing I can think of is a road trip (with camera of course). :D   Let me know if you decide to go, and I'll provide you with their locations; there's a bunch at Gettysburg NMP, sounds like it could be a great adventure. ;)

RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Confederate Cannon
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2011, 12:03:24 PM »
Unfortunately, Gettysburg is on the opposite side of the country from me and my long road trip of the year is planned for CBC2 II in Montana (close to 3000 miles round trip.)  I guess we'll have to wait for someone else to examine the Augusta guns.  Too bad.   :-\
GG
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Confederate Cannon
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2011, 12:11:12 PM »
Very interesting post!
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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