Thoughts on .454 Casull Loads

[Blackhawker]

The Lymann 49th edition loading manual shows loads for a Speer 225g JHP (for a revolver) yet I cannot find any bullets in this weight range with cannelures on them.  With that, I have considered the following:  Buy a box of Hornady 230 grain XTP JHP bullets and put cannelures on them with my cannelure tool, load and test at various velocities. 

What do some of you .454 loaders think of this idea?  According to the Hornady website, it is recommended to use these bullets (XTP's) up to only 1,500 fps yet there are many people here (including myself) that load the 250 grain XTP beyond that velocity with no problems. 

What I am mostly concerned about is if by putting a cannelure in the jacket of the 230 grain bullet, I wonder if this will weaken the jacketing and cause it to tear off upon firing.  Somewhere I had read (I believe it was a Freedom Arms loading site) that some shooters have had bullets with lighter jacketing on them have the jacket tear off upon firing in the .454 Casull and leave jacketing particles in the force cone of the barrel...which can be very dangerous upon firing the second round.  With that in mind, I wonder if what I am considering is worth trying???
Anyone ever try this?  Any thoughts?

[yooper77]

Do Not use in 454 casull!! The jacket will come apart in the forcing cone.

yooper77

[cwlongshot]

Al tho I have never seen it, I have read about it a number of times.

I agree with Yopper...I  would air on the side of safety... 45 ACP bullets are thin jacketed and soft cored. Pushing them at over twice the designed velocity could prove dangerous...

CW

[Blackhawker]

Al tho I have never seen it, I have read about it a number of times.

I agree with Yopper...I  would air on the side of safety... 45 ACP bullets are thin jacketed and soft cored. Pushing them at over twice the designed velocity could prove dangerous...

CW

Both of your expressed feelings are exactly why I posted this thread.  The area in which I had any doubt is the fact that Hornady states that their XTP bullets are supposed to be good for up to 1500 fps.  If I keep the loads down to that velocity I figured I'd be OK, especially since the 250 grain XTP's carry the same designation yet most loaders shoot them over the 1500 fps mark. 

I seriously have my doubts that I'll do this as I tend to stick with the side of safey when I shoot and load.  However, I wonder what the folks at Hornady would say if I had asked them?  For liability, the'd probably say the same as we're all thinking, so I probably won't bother calling. 
Oh well, it was worth a thought anyway. 

The problem here is that those 240 grain XTP Mags are getting EXPENSIVE!!! and I thought I'd try an alternative.  I guess my eyes, face, and hands (and other shooters standing nearby) are probably worth spending the few extra bucks on those XTP Mags though.

Thanks for your input guys. 

[Catfish]

If your looking for a bullet that will take more velocity than you can get from a .454 try thr Lead Head hard cast gas checked bullets. I have pushed their .411 dia. bullets to abt 2,700 fps. with no leading and excellant accuracy. Only problem, they ain`t cheap, cost as much as a good jacketed bullet.

[Grumulkin]

Do Not use in 454 casull!! The jacket will come apart in the forcing cone.

yooper77

Have you actually seen this happen or is this legend?

For what it's worth, I've used similar bullets and even lighter in both a 454 Casull and in a 460 S&W Magnum revolver with no problems at all and they weren't light loads.

As for needing a cannelure, one isn't needed if you use a Lee Factory Crimp Die.

[tacklebury]

I recommend using the 300 gr. XTP Magnums or 240 gr. XTP magnums instead.  They have a much higher capability and still work as well as lead solids at lower velocities.  I have had the 250 gr. XTP's dejacket at less than 1500, so I have stopped using them now that they are used up.  I don't even load to the .454 capabilites, but load them in Ruger level .45 Colt loads.  The hardest I've pushed the Magnums, using RL7 for my 20" barreled colt carbine, still doesn't show any issues with the magnums losing their jackets or desintegrating.  The regular 250's should be kept more around 1200 from my findings. 

Just my 2 cp 

[Blackhawker]

I guess I opened up a real can of worms here.
Here is the main reason why I asked my original question:
I have a Ruger Super Redhawk chambered in .454 and when I fire my heavy sided 45 Colt loads through it with cast 255g SWC, I end up with some very decent accuracy.  I have tested three powders in the .454 ammo using 325g RNFP GC's, 250g XTP's and 240g XTP Mags.  The 325 grain bullets place about five inches high and to the left by comparison to the 45 Colt ammo.  The 250 XTP's place very nice groups about 1 to 2 inches high at 25 yards and the 240's place nice groups right dead on with the 45 Colts at 25 yards. 
If you exprapolate the deviation out to 100 yards, an inch high at 25 yards could be 4 inches high at 100 yards, assuming all things are constant over the longer distance.  So, I'd rather use the 240 grain bullet in the case I would like to interchange ammo in the revolver and not have to worry about adjusting the sights every time I change ammo, or forgetting to adjust the sights, etc.  (I think you get the idea)

I target shoot, plink, and rarely get the chance to shoot prairie dogs once a year so it's not as if I'm going out and hunting large game or dangerous game where it would be well worth the added expense of buying "top notch" and relatively expensive bullets.  I'm toying around here!  Do I need 1880 fps?  HECK NO!  OK, yes, it's a lot of fun to shoot loads like that but what I'm really after is something to do a bit more than my 45 Colt loads and place in the same general area on a target as the 45 Colt loads as well.  Since I'm basicaly plinkiing and target shooting, I don't really need the extra expense of the bullets and if lightening up the velocity is all I need to do in order to use standard XTP bullets, then that's what I'll do.  Typically what I do with other calibers that are somewhat expensive (45-70, 38-55, etc) is I move to cast bullets instead of paying high prices for the jacketed counterparts.  It appears, however, that I'll need a lighter bullet than the 325 grain bullet I have tested in order to stay within POI with my 45 Colt loads.
 
So basically, I'm just trying to see if I can save a few $$$, but if it's gonna cost me the revolver, my hand and more to do that, then it's certainly not worth trying to cut corners.
Any advice with regard to this is much appreciated but I think I already know my answer; either pay the price or just shoot 45 Colts from the revolver and leave it at that.

[Blackhawker]

OK, I did a lot of reading tonight and here is what I discovered: 
Like anything; if you wanna play, you've gotta pay!

It appears that there aren't too many jacketed bullets to select from for the 454 as far as bullets that can withstand full house, high pressure loads that the 454 Casull can deliver.  Yes, one can load lighter loads with softer composite jacketed bullets but why really bother?  Why not just buy a .44 mag then?
The Freedom Arms site does a good job of giving all of the details of the .454 and it's nuances for loading and shooting it; the goods, the bad, and the ugly's. 
In a nutshell, the bad's and the ugly's are that not only can a jacket seperate and become knowingly or unknowingly lodged in the barrel, softer jacketed bullets can bash up and tear up the force cone rapidly and prematurely, hence, destroying the revolver.  Additionally, if one fires full house loads as those developed by the use of H-100 or W296 powders when also shooting the shorter 45 Colts in the chambers, ringing can develop in the chambers if the lead or powder residues are not completely cleaned out.  I guess there is enough pressure developed by this round that it can actually press the residues into the chambers and leave an expanded ring in them. 

So, in essence, I guess I'll shoot the expensive bullets from my SRH and just not shoot it as often as I'd like for the sake of limited funds.  Oh well......

[cwlongshot]

To my thinking this is your best choice.

Just a couple points;

Firing light bullets from single shots or any firearm other than a revolver will not have the forcing cone. While it's still possible to leave a jacket in a barrel with such a potent caliber. The lack of the forcing cons greatly reduces that risk.

My worries are using 45 ACP bullets. The 250 XTP is NOTone of them!  It's still lightly constructed when compared to real 454 bullets.

Firing 45 colts in a 454 chamber are a hot bed of opinions. My own is if you do what you should. You will never have a problem.(Clean it after you shoot it!) But in this day and age where people shirk responsibility. Companies must do things like this in a attempt to protect themselves.

Good luck with your 454!!

CW

[Grumulkin]

Firing 45 colts in a 454 chamber are a hot bed of opinions. My own is if you do what you should. You will never have a problem.(Clean it after you shoot it!) But in this day and age where people shirk responsibility. Companies must do things like this in a attempt to protect themselves.

Both the 454 Casull and 460 S&W Magnum have SAMI maximum pressures of 65,000 psi but, because of difficult ejection in some guns at those pressures, most factory loads are kept to about 55,000 psi.  The 454 Casull originated by Freedom Arms was designed with maximum pressures in mind in a relatively light revolver.  The way the revolver handles the pressure while still getting reliable ejection of cases is with very tight tolerances and highly polished chambers.  It doesn't take very much residue or erosion at all for ejection problems to start when shooting high pressure loads.  In fact, since ALL throats or, in the case of a revolver being shot with shorter cases than it was designed for, the chambers, erode with time, I would say that shooting loads with 45 Colt cases will, with time, inevitably with time cause enough chamber erosion to make ejection difficult with full length 454 Casull cases even with proper and prompt cleaning.

If you ever compare revolvers other than the Freedom Arms revolvers chambered for the 454 Casull cartridge, you'll see they're larger and heavier than the Freedom arms revolvers and the tolerances aren't quite as tight.  For this reason, ejection problems after firing 45 Colt cartridges won't start as soon.  For single shots like an Encore where you're only extracting one case at a time with good mechanical advantage it would probably be a LONG time before any ejection problems started after shooting 45 Colt cartridges.

[yooper77]

OK, I did a lot of reading tonight and here is what I discovered: 
Like anything; if you wanna play, you've gotta pay!

It appears that there aren't too many jacketed bullets to select from for the 454 as far as bullets that can withstand full house, high pressure loads that the 454 Casull can deliver.  Yes, one can load lighter loads with softer composite jacketed bullets but why really bother?  Why not just buy a .44 mag then?
The Freedom Arms site does a good job of giving all of the details of the .454 and it's nuances for loading and shooting it; the goods, the bad, and the ugly's. 
In a nutshell, the bad's and the ugly's are that not only can a jacket seperate and become knowingly or unknowingly lodged in the barrel, softer jacketed bullets can bash up and tear up the force cone rapidly and prematurely, hence, destroying the revolver.  Additionally, if one fires full house loads as those developed by the use of H-100 or W296 powders when also shooting the shorter 45 Colts in the chambers, ringing can develop in the chambers if the lead or powder residues are not completely cleaned out.  I guess there is enough pressure developed by this round that it can actually press the residues into the chambers and leave an expanded ring in them. 

So, in essence, I guess I'll shoot the expensive bullets from my SRH and just not shoot it as often as I'd like for the sake of limited funds.  Oh well......

You are on the right way of thinking now.

yooper77

[cwlongshot]

Grumulkin,
 I have herd it all before.....  I have fired Thousands upon thousands of hi lo and in-between pressure rounds. I have done it with a couple different firearms. Know what?  Whanna guess what problems I have had??  Come on you know the answer... NONE!!  And I never will!!!

I have a number of people I shoot with doing the exact same thing.... Wanna guess what problems they have had ?  Yup same as me!!

Now I am NOT at all corrosion it's a probable issue. It is! What I am saying is if you properly clean the firearm you will not have problems. No one is gonna prove to me it's anything more that lawyer CYA bull!

Barrel eroosion is a real thing. But it's accumulative. And although greatly accelerated with hi pressures such as therein the 454 & 460. The powder volumes in a 45/454/460 simply are not there for them to be compared to CF rifle over bore calibers with a documented history of erosion problems.

One thing is for certain, I will likely never fire your 454 (s). And you won't likely fire mine. So we can agree to disagree again. No harm no foul.

CW

[Blackhawker]

CW, I completely agree that a lot of the problems are erased by shooting a single shot.  There is no cylinder gap, cylinder throat issues, and no force cone.  There really is a LOT going on when firing a round from a revolver as opposed to any other chambering and with that, there is a lot that can go wrong too. 

I think you are correct when you say that a lot of people neglect their guns when it comes to cleaning them.  I will certainly be sure to clean this one with a lot of care and attention to detail  Let's face it, this round is one of the Indy 500 cars of automobiles and we all know Indy cars need (high performance cars) need extra special attention in order to keep them running correctly and to keep them safe.
That's the best analogy I can come up with. 

After looking over the net last night and all of the loads listed in loading tables, I wonder how many shooters of this caliber and the other high performance calibers really ever think of this stuff?  There's probably a million accidents just waiting to happen out there now that I think of it.  Although the likelyhood is slim, when it happens, you can be sure that the lawyers and anti gunners will be there.

[irold]

Blackhawker

Last summer I started out on the same quest.  Just for the record , I'm not looking at my reloading notes..these are from memory....I ended up with a 454 load of 240 gr Horn XTP/Mag over 28 grains of 2400  and a 45 Colt load of 250 XTP over 20 grains of 2400.  I believe these to be accurate , but if you want my data I'd be glad to PM it to you.  They shoot very close to same POA at 35 yards....I sight in at 50 yds.  I shoot a Ruger SBH in  454. I went through a lot of powder and bullets  , but this is what I finally settled on.  I believe I have the chrony data also.  Seems to me , the 454 load is significanty better than a 44 Mag.....the 45 Colt is a Heavy colt load.

regards , irold

[Blackhawker]

Blackhawker

Last summer I started out on the same quest.  Just for the record , I'm not looking at my reloading notes..these are from memory....I ended up with a 454 load of 240 gr Horn XTP/Mag over 28 grains of 2400  and a 45 Colt load of 250 XTP over 20 grains of 2400.  I believe these to be accurate , but if you want my data I'd be glad to PM it to you.  They shoot very close to same POA at 35 yards....I sight in at 50 yds.  I shoot a Ruger SBH in  454. I went through a lot of powder and bullets  , but this is what I finally settled on.  I believe I have the chrony data also.  Seems to me , the 454 load is significanty better than a 44 Mag.....the 45 Colt is a Heavy colt load.

regards , irold

Hi Irold,
I'll have to go look at my books to see what load I've decided upon for the 240 grain XTP in 454 but I'm using a similar load in the 45 Colt.  I use either of the following loads in my 45 Colt Blackhawk; 19.5 g 2400 or 13.5g HS-6 under a 255g SWC or 250g RNFP.  (NOTE: These are Ruger or Thompson Contender loads ONLY!)  Either of these loads work very well in my Blackhawk and the 2400 load works very well in my SRH.  I have found several 454 loads using the 240 grain XTP to hit POA with the Colt load in the SRH.  The 454 loads use either 2400 or H-110...I just can't recall the loads at the moment.