Thinking of a new all purpose bolt gun.

[Eugene]

Hi all,

After reading many reviews and looking at net stuff, I have decided a Ruger scout is NOT for me, we get them in Aus with no flash hider and 18" barrel, but no top up of mag, non standard mags (they should have used M14 or FN mags) has turned me off it, they look great, like an M14, I do like, but too many features I dont like.

We cant have semi's here without too much hassel, so a bolt gun it is.

I have been tossing up over cal, I have a 308 with 20" barrel, noisy.
I have a 25-06 that shoots 1/2 moa all day, 24" tube, but too much gun for 90% of what I hunt.
I also have a Remington 7615 .223 pump action, fitted with a Trijicon 3.5 acog (TA11F with 223 balistic plex) bought this for the son to use, it shoots great for a pumpy, super fast and AR mags.

I am thinking a 223, 20" barrel, heavy profile, syn stock, rem 700 action, Trijicon accupoint 2.5-10 scope, on weaver rail.

I would like to set up a box mag, so I can use AR mags, can this be done?
Will the rem bolt profile suit an AR mag?
I can machine an adaptor if required as long as there is enough width in the rem mag well wo take an AR mag?

Since I will only be using the action I see no point it buying a whole gun, so where do I get an action, or do rem, or savage make a starter gun I could use as a abase with a decent stock.

I had a look at a Rem 700 "tactical", short ( 18-20" ??)heavy barrel, black finish, syn stock, it was nice, but over $2100 aus, (about $2400 US) with no mount or scope, bag etc. just a bare ass gun, I think I can build one better for alot less $$$.

Point me to a Heavy barrel 223 which I can fit with AR mag, or a good starting point please.

[chutesnreloads]

I don't understand the need for the big magazine.Without that limitation you have lots of choices.

[Catfish]

Just went into my vault and did a little checking with a Stevens moled 200. It uses the Savage action and it looked like it would take very little to fit an AR mag. to it. The Stevens is a cheap rifle with the old style Savage trigger, but the one I have has a trigger pleanty good enough for a hunting gun. With the barrel nuts on the Savages it is very easy to head space them also. The only Savage actions I have seen for sale have been target tuned actions and sell for more than the basic over the counter rifle. Hence the Stevens which is the Savage action at a little lower price. I have acouple of Savage guns that are switch barrel guns, and I can use and of the barrels I have on any of the actions I have and simply head space with the barrel nut.  As you might have guessed I`m a Savage fan.

[Eugene]

I don't understand the need for the big magazine.Without that limitation you have lots of choices.

The mag thing is just a desire I have, not really required, but something I would like, also being able to use the same mag as my sons 7615 ( I have many 10, 20 and 30 round AR mags) would be nice, like I said, just something I would like in the rifle.

If the savage is easy to "headspace" with the external barrel nut, would a barrel change be just as easy, as a 300/221 (whisper) is also one on the short list, as I am about to have a metalic silouette handgun built in whixpser, so ammo etc no issues, being able to swap from 223 to whisper, same mags and optics etc, may be worth looking at the savage/stevens.

[chutesnreloads]

Savage barrel changes are a snap.The only complications are possibly needing to change bolt faces which is also very easy especially if you stay with same rim diameter as the .308 think that is .473? or the .223 family.You can get special order bolt faces but those two are standard and readily available.The other hitch is possibly needing to change your magazine.

[Eugene]

Savage barrel changes are a snap.The only complications are possibly needing to change bolt faces which is also very easy especially if you stay with same rim diameter as the .308 think that is .473? or the .223 family.You can get special order bolt faces but those two are standard and readily available.The other hitch is possibly needing to change your magazine.

Roger that,

Thats why I'm thinking .223 and 300 whisper, same mags, same bolt face etc, just a thought.

WOW those stevens are cheap, even out here, under $400 new with a syn stock, a base rem 700 is $1000.

[chutesnreloads]

Get one...even if you leave it the way it comes you won't regret it

[BRL]

http://www.6mmbr.com/actions.html

Scroll down to the Savage. Although the rest is interesting to read too.

[mannyrock]

    A couple of comments:
 
     1.   A .223 in a 20 inch barrel is danged loud!  Certainly as offensive as the .308.

     2.   I believe that you can still buy aftermarket kits, for the Remington 700 bdl, that convert it to a a magazine rifle.  These kits, and the mags that go with them, are fairly expensive, but will be no more expensive than the "rebuild a rifle" project that you have in mind.  Check with Brownell's and Midway.  Both are huge gun catalogue companies, that you can access on line.  Brownell's has well trained people standing by, that can help you locate the product.  My recollection is that you use to be able to buy 8 to 10 round magazines.

      3.  Since you are looking for an all around rifle, and you feel the 25-06 is too powerful, I would suggest that a .243 Winchester would be much more versatile and powerful than the .223.    A .223 is not an all around rifle caliber.

      4.  It sounds as if  you are about to start a "re-invent the wheel" project, that will soak up lots and lots of money for no good reason.  You can simply buy a Savage or a Tikka in .223 or .243,  both of which are magazine fed bolt rifles with great reputations.  Simply shorten the barrels to 20 inches, a very simple gunsmithing project. 

[Eugene]

    A couple of comments:
 
     1.   A .223 in a 20 inch barrel is danged loud!  Certainly as offensive as the .308.

     2.   I believe that you can still buy aftermarket kits, for the Remington 700 bdl, that convert it to a a magazine rifle.  These kits, and the mags that go with them, are fairly expensive, but will be no more expensive than the "rebuild a rifle" project that you have in mind.  Check with Brownell's and Midway.  Both are huge gun catalogue companies, that you can access on line.  Brownell's has well trained people standing by, that can help you locate the product.  My recollection is that you use to be able to buy 8 to 10 round magazines.

      3.  Since you are looking for an all around rifle, and you feel the 25-06 is too powerful, I would suggest that a .243 Winchester would be much more versatile and powerful than the .223.    A .223 is not an all around rifle caliber.

      4.  It sounds as if  you are about to start a "re-invent the wheel" project, that will soak up lots and lots of money for no good reason.  You can simply buy a Savage or a Tikka in .223 or .243,  both of which are magazine fed bolt rifles with great reputations.  Simply shorten the barrels to 20 inches, a very simple gunsmithing project.

Hi all,

I am very aware of how load a 223 is, I have a 20" barrel and a 16" barreled 223. and yes, noisy but a different noise to a 308, (to me anyway).

Where we hunt is very very steep country, most shots are taken across a gully or up or down the mountain you are climbing, the ranges are short, with a max of 200-230 yards, but most being the 80-100 mark.

I had used my 25-06 for years there, but have found that after only 2 or 3 shots that there is no game to be seen for the next few miles of walking, it is a 24" barrel CMC (howa), when I use the 20 or even the 16" 223 the noise just doesnt travel as far and finding the game after is easier, the two young boys, 10 and 11 years old, both use single shot bolt action .22rf with open sights, they head shoot, they have to, at up to 65 yards, if they are the only ones who shoot, you can walk only 300-400 yards and see more game, not miles like I am with the 25-06.

I am really starting to like the idea of a 300 whisper bolt gun, minimum barrel to stay legal is 16", shooting subsonic loads, super quite, we cant have supressors here, but this is about as close as it goes.

I could buy a Stevens, or savage in .223, build a new barrel and have a switch cal rifle, mmm, are there any comercial manufactures of 300 whisper brass? or do I set my dillon up and go to it with some of my once fired .223 brass?

[dks7895]

I have a Stevens 200 in .223 Rem and love it.  Great all around cartridge, and will kill almost anything with proper shot placement.  It does not have the Accu-trigger, but you can tweak them pretty easily.

[Swampman]

A Remington Model 700 SPS would be an excellent choice.

[mannyrock]

    When you talk about the .300 Whisper, you really have to distinguish what type of round you are talking about.  There are the subsonic whisper rounds, and the regular (supersonic? rounds).  Most people who hunt game of any size are using the regular supersonic round.  My brother used one for deer hunting for a few years, and killed three deer, but he used the regular round and did not shoot beyond about 80 yards.  Even that close, it was not authoritative on deer.

    The subsonic round is indeed quiet, but it is very weak, and you are not going to be killing much out to 100 yards with that round.   You didn't mention what you were hunting.  I guess if you are talking rabbits and groundhog sized game, then maybe it will be OK, though accuracy can be a real problem with this round.  (It takes alot of tuning).

Best Regards,

[243dave]

Eugene, A rifle firing a pistol cartridge such as a 357, 44, or 45 colt is fine medicine out to 150 yards.  The power will surprise you especially with the 44 and up calibers, a 300gr bullet at 800fps-1000fps not only hits hard but is not nearly as loud as a 223 from a short barrel.  With my 45 colt rifle, loads using cast bullets can be loaded to be no louder than a 22 rimfire or can be stoutly loaded for some true power, the little trapper can hold 10 rounds and spit them out at a quick rate.  For a 5.5lb gun it is a joy to carry and its loads can be taylored from very mild to really wild.  10 years ago I never dreamed I would even own a rifle that fires a pistol cartridge but for the last 5 years its all I want to hunt with.  My little lever gun is more fun than my AR-15 and kills big game as well as a 300 magnum when firing stout loads(300gr bullets at 1600fps) out to 150 yds but for deer sized game a 250gr class bullet(44 or 45)at 800-1000 fps is quite and will be much more dependable than a 223 out to your average ranges.  I know, I know you were asking about opinions on bolt guns but a levergun in a pistol caliber is a wonderful hunting tool that holds lots of rounds and can be powerful and quite at the same time.  Just a thought.     

[Eugene]

Eugene, A rifle firing a pistol cartridge such as a 357, 44, or 45 colt is fine medicine out to 150 yards.  The power will surprise you especially with the 44 and up calibers, a 300gr bullet at 800fps-1000fps not only hits hard but is not nearly as loud as a 223 from a short barrel.  With my 45 colt rifle, loads using cast bullets can be loaded to be no louder than a 22 rimfire or can be stoutly loaded for some true power, the little trapper can hold 10 rounds and spit them out at a quick rate.  For a 5.5lb gun it is a joy to carry and its loads can be taylored from very mild to really wild.  10 years ago I never dreamed I would even own a rifle that fires a pistol cartridge but for the last 5 years its all I want to hunt with.  My little lever gun is more fun than my AR-15 and kills big game as well as a 300 magnum when firing stout loads(300gr bullets at 1600fps) out to 150 yds but for deer sized game a 250gr class bullet(44 or 45)at 800-1000 fps is quite and will be much more dependable than a 223 out to your average ranges.  I know, I know you were asking about opinions on bolt guns but a levergun in a pistol caliber is a wonderful hunting tool that holds lots of rounds and can be powerful and quite at the same time.  Just a thought.   

Hi all, again.

I am hearing you regarding the lever gun, I had a .44mag winchester, old thing, open sights etc, it was a great companion for the Ruger Super blackhawk hunter I had, both ran the same ammo, home rolled 240gr Kieth hard cast with gaschecks, over a very stout load of win296. both were very efective on pigs, goats and dogs out to well over 110 yards, but failing eyes saw the need for a scope, so the blackhawk got a 2x loepold and the lever gun got retired. I would like to get another, but I really do want a whisper.

I can get a new Rem 700, varmit with syn stock, heavy 26" barrel for under $1000. the barrel can be used on another project, and fit a tobler stainless barrel in 300 whisper.

I mainly shoot goats and pigs, from 10 to 150 yards, the .223 remington pump gun has never failed, I am sure the .300w with the right projectile will do the job, they are not tough to put down, the .357 in a 6.5" ruger drops them easy out to 70 yards.

I was going to use both sub and supersonic rounds, with the subs being as heavy as practical, the supers I will go light, as light as the 1 in 8 twist will allow anyway.

I hope to get decent accuracy, sub 1 moa would be a minimum, my 20 year old 25-06 sporter with factory winchester does under 1.moa all day, so I would want that as a minimum.

I have a local gunsmith who has done lots of work for me over the past 20 years who has built a few whispers in both bolt rifle and TC handgun for MS, he is happy to help and provide his opinions, experiences and skills. I would not take a project like this on by myself, but with his help, I know I can get it to work.

So many guns, so little time, I keep telling myself to just keep shooting the 25-06 and Rem pumpy, but I cant get past this desire to has a 300 whisper, I feel the only solution will be to build one.

[Gaz-52]

            I would like a bolt action in 7.62x39 . Does it have the same rim dimensions as the .308 win ? i am thinking a Savage 200 in .308W could be "set back"& rechambered  to the Russian calibre fairly cheaply if no changes are needed to the bolt .
           Has anyone been down this road , is it do able ?

[Freezer]

  If you reload and want a great 200 yard round that is quiet, have you considered the 7 TCU? I have a 20 in custom barrel on a Rem Model 7 that makes one ragged hole at 100 yards. I push a 140 grain bullet at 2400fps and it's very quiet. The case is fire formed from a .223. It's a great lite rifle with plenty of power for deer and bear out to 200 yards. Being formed from a .223 the bolt face and mag from the original action work and the rifle with a scope weights about 6lbs.  You can use lighter bullets for faster velocity and flater trajectory but that's what I load for hunting Blacktail deer in similar terrain as yours.

The cartridge was developed for the Thompson Contender as a silhouette cartridge and does very well in a 10 & 12 in barrel.

There is also a 6.5 TCU

[pastorp]

I have thought about building a bolt carbine in 7tcu. I think it would make a great gun for these little blacktails here in southeast alaska. 

Regards,

[WSM264]

221 Fireball brass will keep you from trimming and turning 223 brass for the 300 Whisper.  150gr Supersonic loads work good on Pronghorn (antelope) out to 180 yds with proper shot placement.
I would use the Stevens 200 for any build project.  After your 300 Whisper is done, you may consider a 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC

[jlchucker]

    A couple of comments:
 
     1.   A .223 in a 20 inch barrel is danged loud!  Certainly as offensive as the .308.

     2.   I believe that you can still buy aftermarket kits, for the Remington 700 bdl, that convert it to a a magazine rifle.  These kits, and the mags that go with them, are fairly expensive, but will be no more expensive than the "rebuild a rifle" project that you have in mind.  Check with Brownell's and Midway.  Both are huge gun catalogue companies, that you can access on line.  Brownell's has well trained people standing by, that can help you locate the product.  My recollection is that you use to be able to buy 8 to 10 round magazines.

      3.  Since you are looking for an all around rifle, and you feel the 25-06 is too powerful, I would suggest that a .243 Winchester would be much more versatile and powerful than the .223.    A .223 is not an all around rifle caliber.

      4.  It sounds as if  you are about to start a "re-invent the wheel" project, that will soak up lots and lots of money for no good reason.  You can simply buy a Savage or a Tikka in .223 or .243,  both of which are magazine fed bolt rifles with great reputations.  Simply shorten the barrels to 20 inches, a very simple gunsmithing project.

How about a 7mm-08 with a 20 inch barrel?  Just a thought. 

[quasne.inc]

Mossberg just came out with a bolt action that takes AR mags.  Called the MVP.  Looks pretty decent.

[45-70.gov]

why don't you just get another remington pump?


like the one your son  uses you seem to like it so much


should  be easier to re-barrel to 300 whisper
than  to modify another gun  for the  AR clips


does the whisper  use the same clips  as  223?


or just keep it a 223


or  a scoped handi rifle in  357  or 44 mag.....with a scope or red=dot??
if you  need optics  and quietness.....they  can't be beat
leave the barrel  at  22 inches and the lead  heavy.......... if you want real quiet....
 at  22 inches they are still short .....and  ''handi''.....................cheap   too

[Empty Quiver]

SMLE and a pocket full of stripper clips ought to do the trick although not a .223.

[45-70.gov]

SMLE and a pocket full of stripper clips ought to do the trick although not a .223.

those  303  loaded to  300  ballistics.......... heavy cast even

[Freezer]

221 fireball is a great effecent cartridge! Fast quiet and ver effecent. It was chambered in the Remington XP100. Not a bad choice but I'd still build a 7-TCU.

[Brithunter]

Hi all,

After reading many reviews and looking at net stuff, I have decided a Ruger scout is NOT for me, we get them in Aus with no flash hider and 18" barrel, but no top up of mag, non standard mags (they should have used M14 or FN mags) has turned me off it, they look great, like an M14, I do like, but too many features I dont like.

We cant have semi's here without too much hassel, so a bolt gun it is.

I have been tossing up over cal, I have a 308 with 20" barrel, noisy.
I have a 25-06 that shoots 1/2 moa all day, 24" tube, but too much gun for 90% of what I hunt.
I also have a Remington 7615 .223 pump action, fitted with a Trijicon 3.5 acog (TA11F with 223 balistic plex) bought this for the son to use, it shoots great for a pumpy, super fast and AR mags.

I am thinking a 223, 20" barrel, heavy profile, syn stock, rem 700 action, Trijicon accupoint 2.5-10 scope, on weaver rail.

I would like to set up a box mag, so I can use AR mags, can this be done?
Will the rem bolt profile suit an AR mag?
I can machine an adaptor if required as long as there is enough width in the rem mag well wo take an AR mag?

Since I will only be using the action I see no point it buying a whole gun, so where do I get an action, or do rem, or savage make a starter gun I could use as a abase with a decent stock.

I had a look at a Rem 700 "tactical", short ( 18-20" ??)heavy barrel, black finish, syn stock, it was nice, but over $2100 aus, (about $2400 US) with no mount or scope, bag etc. just a bare ass gun, I think I can build one better for alot less $$$.

Point me to a Heavy barrel 223 which I can fit with AR mag, or a good starting point please.

Without reading through all the replies, sorry folks, but Armalon in the UK builds PR rifles on the Rem700 action and I beleive uses AR type magazines so yes it can be done and adaptors are available. here you go from their website:-


http://www.armalon.com/public/products/item/1/


hope that helps.

[Lloyd Smale]

hey hey hey Swampy is right!!!! I beleive they made the sps with a heavy 20 inch barrel to boot. As to noise theres not that much differnce between a 20 and a 22 in 223 or even a 223 and a 221 or 22 hornet. If you dont have ear plugs in any of them will make your ears ring. With earplugs in there all fine.

A Remington Model 700 SPS would be an excellent choice.

[mannyrock]

 
   According to their website, Armalon uses "remodeled AR type mags."   So, they aren't using regular AR mags and they won't fit.  I'm betting that the re-modeled ones cost about $100 each.

[Brithunter]

Don't know as they never appealed to me plus of course it's based upon the rem 700.. The is another company here that also does this sort of thing and are even the preferred Remington repairer.. official and do the warrenty work so i am told but I think they are pretty shabby. Read lost of complaints and when I spoke to them on the phone about a re-chamber was left very ............................. very unimpressed and very sceptical about their skill base.