Encore frame vs. complete rifle?

[SC hog hunter]

I would like to purchase an Encore muzzleloader.  My question is, should I purchase the Encore frame (with pistol forend and butt) then purchase a .50 cal muzzleloader rifle barrel etc. to build my rifle or should I just go ahead and buy the 209 X .50 complete rifle?  I've heard that there is a law making it illegal to convert a rifle to a pistol but not a pistol to a rifle. Is there any truth to that?  I would like to be able to convert back and forth from pistol to rifle.  Thanks for your input.

[444encore]

SC,
  There are such laws. There are also many previous posts on this subject.
There is nothing on a Encore frame that identifies it as a pistol or a rifle frame.
If an official of the law really had it out for you he might be able to research and find out through records or sales reciepts that your rifle was bought as a pistol or vice versa. But in my opinion this would be frivolous.
Ofcourse it is best to obey the laws to best extent of your knowledge, but unless you've really given someone reason to investigate you thoroughly
I don't foresee a problem.

[Possum]

No worries here in SC mate.  I don't think we have anything on the books in this state concerning the conversion-or it will not be a problem with the contender/Encore setup if we do.  As much as I have talked with people about my Contender and Encore I would have heard about it by now.  I have worked with a major law enforcement agency with about 1000 officers and know about 50-60 more from other agencies that hunt and no one has ever challenged anything about my TC setup in SC.    

PM me and tell me where you are from in SC.  Just went on a hog hunt myself a couple of weeks ago.

[Quadzillabill]

If you are going to use it as a pistol, register it as a pistol and you'll be safe.

[longwinters]

If you buy it as a muzzleloader, I do not think it will convert to a pistol will it? At the very least the muzzleloader frame does not have the switch to convert from rim fire to center fire so you would have to shoot center fire only.  But I was under the impression that the muzzleloader frame was only for long guns.  Correct me if I am wrong.

long

[dakotashooter2]

Long... All Encore frames are the same. Some STATE laws dictate that only a frame registered as a pistol can be converted to a pistol, though as mentioned unless you did something illegal it is unlikely to come up. Encore frames are from the factory centerfire only. The rimfire conversion is an aftermarket option. Hog Hunter....Just check your state regs to see what is allowed. Building your own may end up costing a few bucks more if you buy NIB.

[Lone Hunter]

Putting a pistol barrel on a encore carbine is no different than cutting the barrel off your favorite rifle and making a pistol out of it.  If you get the Feds permission and pay the money[$200]both can be done legaly.
 

  This is not a State law.

  It is a Fedaral Felony to make the change with out the proper paper work.

  The chances of you being caught is slim but is the risk worth it?  

  Buy your Encore as a pistol and then purchase the rifle barrel.  You then can legaly switch back and forth with no problems.

  Jeff

[helobill]

This topic comes up every couple months, always causes lots of knashing of teeth, but it's fun to watch...kinda like a freight train wreck.

The only folks that can tell you how your frame was manufactured is the T/C Factory. Their list is NOT provided as a matter of course to any federal or state agency. If the ATF calls them, they'll tell them how a certain serial number was manufactured and registered when built. Key here is T/C pays different taxes to the feds based on what they manufacture so they keep good records vice just calling everything a handgun frame, which would be best for us because the NFA doesn't put an upper limit the length of barrel on a pistol.

So if you're buying a new complete gun and it's coming from the factory (not changed by the local dealer) it will be assembled how it was manufactured and in the appropriate box so labeled. If you're buying a used frame, you can call T/C and they'll tell you how it was manufactured. By the letter of the law, what Lone Hunter said is absolutely correct. If it was manufactured as a rifle frame, if you put a barrel less than 16" on it, you have "made" a short-barreled rifle and it is subject to the National Firearms Act (doesn't matter what stock is on it). To be legal you must advise ATF of your intentions to "make" a NFA regulated firearm, pay a $200 fee and wait for their permission before you 'make' it. (all this is on their web site, not TC specific because they were thinking rifles with cut off barrels and stocks when they wrote the law. You know the kind the gangsters use, and they weren't going to follow the law anyway).

Now like 444encore said, why are they going to ask? An agent looking at a T/C assembled properly as a pistol or a rifle has no reason to suspect the frame on that pistol is really a rifle frame...can you say no probable cause? Now if an ATF agent sees you with a carbine stock and a less than 16" barrel he can and WILL stop you and you WILL be sorry because the NFA regulated firearm is in plain sight (so unless you registered your short barreled rifle he's gonna put the hurt on ya!). But barring that, you'd really have to make the ATF mad to have them take your serial number, get permission and then call T/C to find out how your frame was manufactured. Sounds like a frustrated investigation that they couldn't get you on what they wanted to and started looking for any way to get you. I'd read the ATF website if you really want the straight skinny. It's boring, but it's informative...kinda like directions that come with electronic gizmos, I don't read them until I can't figure out how to make this @#$% thing work. Guess that's why the clock still flashes on my VCR and I can't make the blasted Emoticons work today!
Bill

[SC hog hunter]

Thanks for all the suggestions.  I would like to break into hog hunting with a pistol so I think I'll be safe and purchase an Encore pistol in .308 then get the muzzleloader barrel later.  Crawling around in the swamp is not fun with a rifle in your hands.  Interestingly, I called Thompson Center Arms yesterday and asked them about the legality of converting a gun manufactured as a rifle to a pistol and they told me not to worry, that I could do it either way without reprisals.  You would think that they would be reluctant to say that without fearing some liability.  SC hog hunter

[RonF]

The reason they can say that is because they have lawyers who've been there and done that, all the way to the supreme court.  Most of us on this board, certainly including myself, are not legal professionals and don't necessarily know all the rules - we only have opinions.

RonF

[helobill]

If they know something we don't, sure wish they'd put it out. I've done a search of the legal battles TC has been involved in and can only find the US vs TC, No. 91-164 (had my JAG run it too through his high speed low drag legal beagle software and that's all he found too). You can read the Supreme Court decision at http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/91-0164.ZO.html but it didn't deal with all aspects of converting, only whether owning a carbine stock and a pistol length barrel constituted owning a "short-barreled rifle" as defined in the NFA and subjected TC to paying the $200 tax. Brought out because of the 'carbine conversion kit' offered by TC with the Contender pistol (they made one, paid the $200 tax and then filed a lawsuit in claims court under the Tucker Act. If there's been a decision that covers the rifle to pistol conversion I couldn't find it. Sure would like to know if there has been.
Bill

[dakotashooter2]

As long as you don't put a barrel under 16" on a frame that has the carbine stock attached everthing else is pretty much kosher with federal regs. As mentioned some states have more restrictive regs. Many dealers sell frames only and none that I have ever seen advertized are done so with any specific designation. I have never heard of these coming to the dealer designated as rifle or pistol. Registration of naked frames at the time of sale is the appears to be the determining factor.

[Graybeard]

DO NOT assume any information provided here is legally accurate. The folks here are not lawyers who have properly researched this subject and if they were they wouldn't be giving you free legal advice.

Not even BATF can give a straight answer on this. To the best of my knowledge no case has as of yet been settled on the subject of taking a frame that was purchased as a rifle and listed as such on the federal yellow sheet and then used in conjunction with a less than 16" barrel and handgun grip.

Like the others I have my opinions but that's all they are OPINIONS.

But to answer the question originally asked. If it were me I'd buy it as a handgun initially. Most everyone seems to agree that it will then be legal to use as both. There is a lot of disagreement and uncertainty doing it the other way.

GB

[helobill]

Yeah, what Graybeard said!
Bill

[Bug]

And that's what it would be, is an opinion. It would, at least, be your own. Here are some legal references to read:

http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/91-0164.ZO.html

http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/tc.html

http://www.healylaw.com/cases/thompson.htm

[Possum]

Bug, shouldn't you be saying some legal OPINIONS to read?  Those are good reading.

[Smiley]

I went through the same problem. Well I talked to the top dog at TC. It is as stated Tc ships all frames as either rifle or pistol. No frames are just shipped blank, they have a pistol grip or stock, period. So you can not make a pistol out of rifle leagally with out paying the 200.00 and reregestering it. My problem I wanted to take mine out of state hunting, problem. If you ever had a problem or accident it could cost dearly. The law also is if you have a rifle frame and only pistol pieces then it is a pistol, so keep the rifle pieces too. If you have an FFL or CR and get checked , you could have a problem.. Do what you want its your rifle/pistol, its only the law, people break it all the time.  <

[Tad Houston]

I would like to buy a pistol and covert it to a rife so i could use it as both, but i live in California and can not buy a TC pistol because of the drop law here. If i converted a rife to a pistol and got stopped by law enforcment, they would run the serial numbers for the pistol and i guess nothing would come up on it. that would probably not be good as hand guns must be registered to their owners, right? I figure the least they would do is take it away.  So, the way for me to get a pistol to convert is to buy it used. I just can not find one sombody will part with. :?