Cannon wheel book review

[Zulu]

Cat Whisperer was gracious enough to let me check his copy of Wheels, Wheels, Wagons & More out of his library.
The book has sections of buggy wheels, wagon wheels, wooden spoke auto wheels, wagons, and harnesses.
While it was an interesting read, and I certainly know more than I did before I read it, I'm sure it will take more direction for me to learn the spoke process.
The section on wagon wheels was only six pages long and did not touch on spoke fabrication.  The buggy wheel section talked about spoke fab but not the kind of spokes one would need in a wagon wheel.
It does look like whatever you do, you will need a jig for almost every step for almost every size wheel you try to make.
None of that is insurmountable.  I think I need better instruction on the spoke process.  I understand hubs, felloes, and the heating process to set tire irons. 
I cannot possibly forsee making wheels for anywhere near the price they are already available for.
I'd still like to try it again with a proper "dish" this time.
Thanks Cat!

Gunsonwheels is also letting me check out his copy of Morrison's book on wheel making.  I have not received it yet.  Another report will follow.
Zulu

[gunsonwheels]

I understand both Twigg (MCC) and Hansen buy most of their their spokes from the Amish (whatever that means).  I know Twigg dries them in an oven to reduce their moisture content to the climate the wheel will live in.  I've talked to both of them and they say it's cheaper to at least start with a premade spoke if not live with their available geometries altogether.

[Cannoneer]

Zulu,

Member 'gary michie' who has been involved with making full size wheels once recommended this book: 'Wheelmaking, Wooden Wheel Design and Construction' from the 'Carriage Museum of America'.   
http://www.carriagemuseumlibrary.org/books-for-sale#book10

[GGaskill]

This last book, Wheelmaking, Wooden Wheel Design and Construction, is a collection of articles from period (1850-1900) trade magazines and mostly deals with carriages.  The book's index gives you some idea of what subjects are covered.

[Double D]

I understand both Twigg (MCC) and Hansen buy most of their their spokes from the Amish (whatever that means).  I know Twigg dries them in an oven to reduce their moisture content to the climate the wheel will live in.  I've talked to both of them and they say it's cheaper to at least start with a premade spoke if not live with their available geometries altogether.

For Standard wheels, Hansen says he does buy from from a supplier.  He is fully set up to make spokes  and in fact showed me the tooling he used to make spokes and to machine the tenon at an angle on the end of the spoke for dish.

[guardsgunner]

The Amish guy we got our last wheels from had an electrified spoke carving machine from before the turn of the last century. It would carve several at a time off a trace patern. Very interesting machine.

Bob

[gunsonwheels]

For Standard wheels, Hansen says he does buy from from a supplier.  He is fully set up to make spokes  and in fact showed me the tooling he used to make spokes and to machine the tenon at an angle on the end of the spoke for dish.

Yeh... observing from sketches and repro photos... needing those "plankish" looking spokes on the butterfly and grasshopper I figure someone is going to have to do those custom. 

I have both Twigg and Customwagon wheels... Anyone out there have Hansen's and can comment on their quality vs. cost??  Tire and bands good and tight?  Any small gaps between felloes and/or  between felloes and tire??

Sounds like the Morrison book may speak more directly to wagon and ordnance wheels than the other two.  Hope "media rate" gets it there okay and soon Zulu... 

[Zulu]

I have the Morrison book "Wheelwrighting A Modern Introduction", loaned to me by gunsonwheels.
It has a chapter totally dedicated to making cannon wheels.
I have just started to look at this chapter.  On the second page it says "At the same time you are ordering your lumber, contact your supplier to order spokes".
It looks like spoke manufacture is still to remain a mystery.  I will continue to read the chapter but I may be on my own to figure out how someone makes a spoke without having to carve it by hand.
If the premier wheelwrights are ordering spokes from someone else, they must be hard to make with power tools.
Zulu

[Double D]

It may mean  one less piece of equipment the shop has to have and it may be more economical top buy a standard from a supplier and spend your real time on the custom makes.

I know Hansen was making spokes for the wheels there were working on while I was in there shop.

FWIW.  Hansen said he could make us 1/6 scale wheels, but he would have to completely retool to do it and wheels would be in the $300 each catagory for a 30 wheel minimum but.

[gunsonwheels]

Zulu,
Give Bill Twigg a call and kick the spoke thing around with him.  He'll help with the spoke dilema I am sure.  Working with AOP's #12 I at one time had a procedure all worked out for doing the wheel's spokes but cannon spokes are close enough to what is available premade that they can usually be used as is or with minor modifications.  And I believe it was Bill that told me that.  However that may not apply to the scale sizes you are trying to do.  Give Bill a call and go from there.

GOW

[GGaskill]

I guess it kinda depends on how close to exact you want to make the spokes.  While setting up for the cannon making class that I taught at Lassen College a few years ago, I designed a number of jigs and tools for making spokes for a half scale mountain howitzer.  No one ever reached the spoke making stage so they weren't tested but I still have the various plans (someone else has the jigs that we made.) 

Since one needs to make so many duplicate pieces (24 spokes for a mountain howitzer), it is worth the time to make the jigs first.  And it helps to make all the pieces the same.  The plan was to do all the work on either a table saw or a drill press.

[Cat Whisperer]

It may mean  one less piece of equipment the shop has to have and it may be more economical top buy a standard from a supplier and spend your real time on the custom makes.
...

One of the standard rules in manufacturing is that if someone else makes a part, you should buy it not try to make it.  They're already setup for mass production, it will cost you LESS and you'll have better quality.

[keith44]

So the hard part is the spokes?  Wouldn't a gun stock duplicator work?

[Zulu]

So the hard part is the spokes?  Wouldn't a gun stock duplicator work?

keith44,
I am not familiar with a gun stock duplicator or how it works.
Zulu

[Max Caliber]

Spokes for US Civil War era gun carriage wheels are the easiest to make that I know of. They can be fabricated from plain flat board stock. All fabrication steps can be done with appropriate jigs using just a table saw and a router or wood shaper, except for the round tenon on one end. Spokes made earlier and later than this period usually are more complex and can incorporate cross sections that can run from rectangular to oval to round in the same spoke. Some have dogleg looking shapes . These spokes can be made in a home workshop but require a lot of hand work. If you decide to make your own spokes, remember to make some extra because you probably will need them because of mistakes, and it it easier to make extras while you are at it than going back later and setting up the jigs again. Wheel making is not as tough as it looks. Just study your plans, go slow. and concentrate on one step at a time.

[Max Caliber]

Zulu, Stock duplicators, also known as a multi spindle carving machines are used to produce several copies of an object at one time. The pattern, sometimes made of metal, is loaded into the pattern station and wood blanks to be carved are loaded into the carving stations. (can be up to 20-30 or so carving stations according to the size of the objects being produced). The pattern station and carving stations are geared together so everything rotates precisely at the same rate. A guide pin operates against the pattern and cutters at each carving station operates against the wood to be carved. Everything is rotated slowly and as the guide pin moves along the pattern from end to end the cutters carve an exact copy of the pattern at each carving station. Maybe someone will come by and explain this better.

[gunsonwheels]

Spokes for US Civil War era gun carriage wheels are the easiest to make that I know of. They can be fabricated from plain flat board stock. All fabrication steps can be done with appropriate jigs using just a table saw and a router or wood shaper, except for the round tenon on one end.

A router mounted in a router table works great for this and if you have a vertical belt sander, you can cut slightly oversize the tenon extending into the hub and then sand the 5 degree side until it just fits.  Mounting the hub to the drill press with spokes extended and the hub held at a 5 degree angle to the drill press spindle is required to get accurate and consistent tenons at the felly end of the spoke.  The Morrison book has several illustrations showing this process.     

And a round tenon auger is shown/available at the bottom of the following page.  Cheaper ones are available but don't usually have the adjustable length (depth of cut) stop but the depth stop on the drill press can serve as well.

http://www.palouse.net/mcctwigg/equiphot.htm

[Zulu]

Max Caliber,
Thanks for chipping in here.  I think you are very knowledgeable about wheel making and appreciate your input.
Zulu

[Zulu]

So the hard part is the spokes?  Wouldn't a gun stock duplicator work?

keith44,
Now that I know what a duplicator is, I looked it up.
Here is one that actually shows a picture of duplicating a spoke.  This is pretty neat.
Zulu
http://www.radarcarve.net/index.php?p=gallery

[gunsonwheels]

Mounting the hub to the drill press with spokes extended and the hub held at a 5 degree angle to the drill press spindle is required to get accurate and consistent tenons at the felly end of the spoke.

This is all wrong... the hub needs to be held at the angle while doing the hub mortising.  While tenoning the stub axle is 90 degrees to the press column.  (I sent the book to Zulu so hey...  )

[Max Caliber]

gunsonwheels, you are right. With the center line of the hub at 90 degrees to the column, the spokes are at 5 degrees. Only need to be sure to start the tenon so when it terminates it is at the center of the spoke.

[gunsonwheels]

For my first set of wheels I set up a spindle in front of the stationary belt sander and rotated the hub w/spokes against it to assure all the spoke ends were the same length and concentric.  After mortising and setting the felloes did it again with the outer periphery of the felloes against it.  After the tires were shrunk on there were no gaps and the wheels were truly round.  No gaps at the felloe butts or between the felloes and the tire is a measure of mine for a good wheel.  I hope to learn all the finer points that make a good wheel...  some day.   

[Double D]

What you guys are saying seems  contrary to what Hansen's showed me when I stopped in a few weeks ago.

Here is a wheel they were working on.



Notice the angle of the tenon of the spoke in the background.  As was explained, the hole in the hub and fello is square. The spoke is put in a fixture set at the desired angle and the tenon forming cutter is feed into the end of the spoke cutting the tenon in proper form and  angle.

Here is one those tenon forming tools for cutting round tenons.

[gunsonwheels]

I don't know about other wheels but the fitting together of #1 and #2 Ordnance wheels is quite clear from the drawings in AOP's #12 book on Artillery of the US Land Service (page 4-4).  The hub's mortised holes are a constant width and are perpendicular to the hub's bore on one side (or closest to one of the hubs faces) and are slanted at a 5 degree angle to the hub's axis on the opposite side.  Corresponding widths and angle are cut into the spoke end and after inserting them into the hub they extend out from the hub at the 5 degree angle of the dish.  So now... the tenon at the end of the spoke slants back to perpendicular as measure from the axis of the hub to insert into the felloes which are drilled to be also perp to the hub axis...  again sanding the sloped end of the spoke until it just fits into the mortise can give a good tight fit.  But notice the angles and realize the spokes are actually 14 wedges trying to spit the hub when driven into it by shrinking the tire... hence the four hub bands and they are shrunk on or pressed on before either shrinking the tire or pressing the nave box.  ...otherwise kindling 

[Double D]

Yes correct the rectangular hole is square to the axis with the outer side of the hub hole at 6 degrees.  The hub end of the rectangular spoke is square to the axis on the outside and cut inat 6 degrees on the inside.





The round tenon on the end of the spoke that goes into the fello is cut at 6 deegrees.  The hole in the fello is square to the axis,  The tenon is angled to the spoke. 



The side of the fello on the inside of the wheel is angled.

[gunsonwheels]

It all has a real funtional beauty when done correctly and well...      And it does look better with a full 6 degree dish.  Customwagons uses 5 degree.

[Max Caliber]

The way Hansen's cuts tenons (the factory way) and the drill press method yields the same results, just different ways of doing the same job. From what I have read, wheelwrights would fit up a wheel with one degree less dish than the finished wheel required and the tightening up of the wheel when the tire was put on added additional dish. A wheel fitted up at 6 degrees would finish out at 7 degrees or so. I have found that to be exactly what happens. You can tell if the spokes have moved more in the direction of dish by looking at where the back side of the spokes enter the hub. It there's a gap there, it means the spokes have moved away from their original position, increasing the dish.. 

[Cannoneer]

Max,

I've got a question for you, or to be more precise, I'm asking for your opinion on this: For the wheels that DD and myself are concerned with (meaning a smaller scale wheel, something under 20-inches), is it really necessary to attempt to achieve the tight fits and close tolerances that are a must for real working wooden compression wheels? Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying to make them sloppily, what I mean is if the wheels are made to look good cosmetically, and all the joins of the spokes to the hubs and the felloes are secured with a quality wood glue, then wouldn't the wheels be sturdy enough to serve their intended purpose? After all, it's not like they're going to have to withstand even a tiny fraction of the abuse a real artillery carriage wheel had to endure.

[Double D]

Max,

I've got a question for you, or to be more precise, I'm asking for your opinion on this: For the wheels that DD and myself are concerned with, (meaning a smaller scale wheel, something under 20-inches) is it really necessary to attain the tight fits and close tolerances that are a must for real working wooden compression wheels? Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying to make them sloppily, what I mean is if the wheels are made to look good cosmetically, and all the joins of the spokes to the hubs and the felloes are secured with a quality wood glue, then wouldn't the wheels be sturdy enough to serve their intended purpose? After all, it's not like they're going to have to withstand even a tiny fraction of the abuse a real artillery carriage wheel had to endure.

Hear, Hear John and it is the message that the wheel makers and others don't get. 

They have been making real correct working wheels for so long that they can't figure out how to make a small model wheel.   

The wheel we want does not have to be detail scale correct. If corners have to be cut and construction techniques changed to make the wheel we are okay with that.

All we want is a small scale wheel that looks good and is strong enough to stand light firing a few times a year..   

[Max Caliber]

John, we are talking replica construction here to be used for any size wheel. If you don't need to replicate a certain wheel type, then you can construct them with any method and material that fits your needs. The only requirement is to construct them strong enough to stand up to heaviest use you would put them through.