Author Topic: Verbruggen "grasshopper" and "butterfly" carriage expertise??  (Read 2694 times)

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Offline gunsonwheels

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In surfing the web for pictures of the subect carriages I see some with wheels with four band hubs and some with two band hubs... anyone know for sure which they used back then or if they used both?

Also the cap squares show up in two different versions: 1) an eye bolt serving as a pivot and keeper as well as securing one wing of the square with the other wing secured by a key bolt (i.e. one eye bolt and one key bolt) and 2) the eyebolt again on the end of one wing but then an eyebolt securing that same wing with a second eyebolt securing the other wing(i.e. one eyebolt and two key bolts).  Again anyone know which may be more historically accurate and/or if maybe both configurations were used?

A link to some pictures of the pieces at Yorktown.  There's three fairly good photos

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wdwbarber/2679716977/in/photostream/

Offline Zulu

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Re: Verbruggen "grasshopper" and "butterfly" carriage expertise??
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2011, 03:46:37 AM »
gunsonwheels.
As one who has made a number of carriages, I will put forth my opinion. 
The craftsmen who made artillery carriages throughout the years had a very wide range of skills and tools at their disposal.  If they were lucky enough to have a drawing, they would then produce their rendition of that carriage.  The final product would be the result of their own personal circumstances.  I would be willing to bet that in the early years, not many had a drawing.
With the carriages I have made, some have been done with drawings, some have been done with pictures, and some have been concocted out of my imagination.  As a woodworker, I cannot see why any other woodworker would do it any different.  I make allowances for some things.  I have the use of power tools and readily admit that I rarely use a tool that won't plug in.
I think "historical accuracy" is over rated.  If a carriage has most of the traits of an original model, and is built to the skill set of the woodworker, I think it would then be the best interpretation of "historical accuracy".
That's how they were built.  With hammers, chisels, and imagination.  I don't think a different thread on a screw, or a slightly different hub size, or the color of the paint (or stain ;D) makes much of a difference.
Zulu
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Offline dan610324

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Re: Verbruggen "grasshopper" and "butterfly" carriage expertise??
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2011, 04:26:37 AM »
I cant find any grasshopper there , just ordinary split trail carriages
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline Zulu

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Re: Verbruggen "grasshopper" and "butterfly" carriage expertise??
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2011, 05:30:33 AM »
Dan,
A grasshopper carriage is basically a split trail design with a pair of metal brackets on each side of the rear of the trail that accept long wood levers that angle upward.  It kind of gives the carriage a grasshopper leg look.
The front of the carriage also has a pair of brackets on each side to accept the same kind of wood levers that stick forward of the gun in line with the carriage side rails.
For anyone that has them, you can see pictures of this carriage in a Cannon Limited catalog on page 83.  Mine is a catalog from around 1998.  It can also be seen in the South Bend catalog (1992 - 1996) on page 59.
Don't confuse this type of carriage with a galloper.
Zulu
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Offline dan610324

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Re: Verbruggen "grasshopper" and "butterfly" carriage expertise??
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2011, 08:29:01 AM »
that was what I did :-[
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline gunsonwheels

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Re: Verbruggen "grasshopper" and "butterfly" carriage expertise??
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2011, 09:56:07 AM »
Just want to know what will fly as a "replica" but then whoever heard of a rifled Verbruggen?  (Guess I should relieve the lands a bit so it's not so obvious  :) ).    I just want to know more about the originals before finalizing my peculiar design and starting the build.

Mr. Lutz (AOP) answered my request and has some full size drawings.  Guess I'll send for those.

Offline threepdr

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Re: Verbruggen "grasshopper" and "butterfly" carriage expertise??
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2011, 11:51:58 AM »
Are those Verbruggen Light 3 Pounders in the photos or standard Congrieve Three Pounders? 

Your best bet is to get a copy of "Grasshoppers and Butterflys" by Adrean Caruna.  It spells out the differences in the different Light Three Pounder carriages.
See my history and archaeology blog at:  http://erasgone.blogspot.com/

Offline threepdr

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Re: Verbruggen "grasshopper" and "butterfly" carriage expertise??
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2011, 11:54:08 AM »
Actually, on closer look.  The gun in Yorktown pic appears to be a Light 6 Pounder.
See my history and archaeology blog at:  http://erasgone.blogspot.com/

Offline gunsonwheels

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Re: Verbruggen "grasshopper" and "butterfly" carriage expertise??
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2011, 01:41:44 PM »
I'm afraid I wouldn't know one from the other... the title said three pounder... so...??

There's unpublished paper out there by Stephen G. Strauch on the Verbruggen (280 pages with sketches, drawings and pictures).  Can't download it directly but can file it and then open it.  There were three guns made in that period by the Verbruggens: 1)the Pattison (37" long), 2)the Townsend (38" long) and 3) the Congreve (40 1/2" long).  They were all just over 3" in bore (or 3# ball).  They're referred to as Type I, II, and III as well.  SBR's copy is a type one for length but a type II and III as far as the breech molding is concerned.  I wish they'd done a Congreve (longer barrel) but... oh well.

Offline dan610324

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Re: Verbruggen "grasshopper" and "butterfly" carriage expertise??
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2011, 02:18:16 PM »
did any member of the verbruggen family cast anything from cast iron ??
wasnt they only working with bronze ??
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline gunsonwheels

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Re: Verbruggen "grasshopper" and "butterfly" carriage expertise??
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2011, 02:26:23 PM »
AS you probably know Peter and his son Jan were "displaced persons" from dutch, holland, netherlands decent.  I don't know if they ever did any out of iron but all I've read says just bronze after they overhauled the foundry after coming to England.  They mixed up a concoction of pine tar and other goop (note the scientific terms... just what you'd expect from a retired Boeing engineer  :) ) that rendered the barrel black kind of like SBR finishes them today (an Elizabeth Browning tells of this finish in one of the treatises).

Offline gunsonwheels

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Re: Verbruggen "grasshopper" and "butterfly" carriage expertise??
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2011, 04:58:04 PM »
For anyone interested in the Verbruggen, I now have Caruana's "Butterfiles and Grasshoppers" as well as a few other of his works on the Verbruggens of that period.  The paper Stephen Strach did for the NPS on the Verbruggen guns is also on the web but a little tricky to download... It's 280 pages and occupies 100Mb of space but is very complete except it omitted two pieces that were previously mentioned on our board that used to be in front of a mansion and are now in the Watervliet Museum.  I will receive shortly some full scale, undimensioned drawings from Don Lutz at AOP also. And "exlimey" is also trying to track down some drawings he did for the NPS.
So here's the link for the Strach treatise:

http://lib.jrshelby.com/verbruggen-online.htm

And J. Gooding at Museum Restoration Service is still sending out material on this gun.  He sounds like an afficiondo (sp?) of the gun as well and has been a good guide for what is found where.

If anyone is looking for info, PM me or e-mail and I'll try to help from my own learning curve... (gee... I hope it's been up... :o)

George/GOW

Offline brass cannon

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Re: Verbruggen "grasshopper" and "butterfly" carriage expertise??
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2011, 07:23:44 PM »
The Verbruggens, father and son, were in charge of the Royal Brass Foundry from 1775 to 1786, when they both had died. Jan died 10/1781 and Peter died about 2/1786.  Being the brass foundry, they didn't make iron guns.  There are a few sources of information on their 3 pound cannons but each is confused.  Steve Strauch discusses the 3 pounders and provides photos of many of them.  Unfortunately, some of the photos are not too helpful.  Adrienne Caruana wrote the book "Butterflies and Grasshoppers", but got some of it mixed up.  David McConnell's book about British Muzzleloading Artillery adds some details but ... (Incidentally, I am looking for a copy of that one)   Carel de Beers book on the Art of Gun Founding is a dandy, if you can find the edition with the color prints which he did alone. The earlier addition with the black and white drawings, which he co-authored with Melvin Jackson, is OK.  However, the full story is this.  In February, 1775 the Verbruggens got a contract to make 6 three pound cannons which had been designed by Pattison.  It had been shown to the King with success and it could be carried on the shoulders of the crew in an emergency.  While completing that contract they were given another contract to make 4 three pounders which had been designed by a Mr Ward who was from Ireland.  The Pattison was 36" from breech ring to muzzle and weighed about 190 pounds.  There is an original of that gun today in Perth, Ontario Canada.  I have photos of that gun.  The other 1775 gun was 32" long and was sponsored by Mr Townsend.  Which gun belongs to Townsend has been the subject of most of the confusion surrounding the Verbruggen 3 pounders.  A letter written in 1775 specifies that the Pattison and the Townsend are two different guns and the Townsend is 32" long.  I make a copy of that model with a elevation ring under the neck.  There are two originals of that gun today.  One is mounted in a wall at West Point and the other is on display at the Smithsonian. The weight is 207 pounds.  The two 1775 guns were sometimes referred to as grasshoppers as they could be carried on carriages equipped with shafts to move them in a manner similar to that of a modern deer carrier with wheels in the middle and handles fore and aft.  Throw your deer or cannon on the top and run around the field with it.  The Pattisons and Townsends were shipped to the colonies in late 1775.  Caruana's book shows a drawing of the procedure with a Townsend on it.  It shows the ogives and fillets each side of the trunnions which are missing on the Congreve and it is missing the ogive and fillet on the rear of the chase, which is different from the Pattison.  The third gun of the 3 was ordered from the Verbruggens in late January, 1776 and they cast a couple of dozen of them for the Canadian campaign of General Burgoyne. It and its carriage were designed by Congreve.  It was called a butterfly because of the 2 boxes which were mounted on the axles on each side of the gun. It, like the Pattison, is 36" long and weighs about 218 pounds.  "Butterflies and Grasshoppers" shows this carriage with canister in one side box and ball in the other side box.  Powder charges of varying weights were carried in the trail box and could be dismounted behind the gun for safety.  The balls and cannister stayed mounted with the gun.  There are several of these available in historic locations.  This is the usual cannon utilized by most artillery units re-enacting currently.  It is characterized by a clean, lower cost appearance, without the ogives and fillets that are found on the two guns of 1775. A drawing of it along with that of the Pattison are in Caruana's book.  There is no drawing of the Townsend.  The names of Congreve and Townsend are frequently used incorrectly which has been the source of the confusion surrounding the Verbruggen 3 pounders.   Both the butterfly and the grasshopper were used with a limber to carry additional ammunition as well as a wall gun  This setup is pictured in Caruana's book.  Early drawings and models show that there were 3 bands on the wheels, an inner washer band, a central band next to the outside of the spokes and a linch band on the outside.  Mueller and Rudyerd both show this configuration.  The original models are at Woolich.

Offline gunsonwheels

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Re: Verbruggen "grasshopper" and "butterfly" carriage expertise??
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2011, 04:21:18 AM »
Very, very nice summary and it clarifies why there is confusion,  Thanks!!

brass cannon,

And the wheels... they were as shown and described in Caruana's book as 10 spokes with five felloes??

And was the Congreve 41 1/2" long overall as Strach says... and has anyone done a dimensioned drawing of that Congreve model barrel?

Offline brass cannon

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Re: Verbruggen "grasshopper" and "butterfly" carriage expertise??
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2011, 08:59:28 AM »
Bill Meuse who lives in NY ST made a pattern from an original Congreve 3 pdr for the bicentennial and most cannon groups have Congreve models made from that pattern.  I have 2 of them.  It is 41.5" tip to tip or 36" from muzzle face to the rear of the breach ring, which is the correct way to measure a cannons length.  Bill also made a pattern of the Townsend at the Smithsonian, which I copied.  I now make that gun in bronze as well as a 1781 Spanish 4. There are no copies of the Pattison other than the original in Canada.  The wheels in Caruanas book are 10 spoke, 42" wheels.  They are well made by Witmer coach in PA.

Offline gunsonwheels

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Re: Verbruggen "grasshopper" and "butterfly" carriage expertise??
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2011, 10:37:09 AM »
brass cannon

I sent you a PM a few days ago with a couple more questions... are you still tracking this thread??

George/GOW

Offline gunsonwheels

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Re: Verbruggen "grasshopper" and "butterfly" carriage expertise??
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2011, 03:32:45 PM »
I have received AOP's approximately full scale drawings of the barrels and very detailed drawing of the carriage and ammo chests/boxes.  It's a little overwhelming how many parts and pieces are there.  The drawings are copyrighted by AOP but appartently were originally drawn by "Harrison's Artillery"  drawn 3/19/82 (according to the parts explosion title block).  I would like to try and verify the drawing's level of authenticity or accuracy to the originals in the 1700's.

I also have the Art of Gunfounding coming and a couple other treatises...  but...

Anyone out there ever heard of Harrisons Artillery circa 1982??

Offline gunsonwheels

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Re: Verbruggen "grasshopper" and "butterfly" carriage expertise??
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2011, 04:45:17 AM »
I received the follwing this "early" morning:

Quote
Dear George Neilson,

Thank you for your enquiry regarding the Grasshopper model.  We do have the model here and I can get it out of the case for your friend to macro photograph, but we do charge for this sort of research which would cost £10 sterling.  I would need to know your acquaintances names and what day they would wish to visit the museum.  I look forward to hearing from you.

Mr. Les Smith MA AMA
Collections Manager
Royal  Artillery Museum
 

Please PM me and let me know where to send the Money and when you know ... when you will be visiting and the name you will be using.

Thnx,
GOW

Offline rampa room artillery

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Re: Verbruggen "grasshopper" and "butterfly" carriage expertise??
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2011, 06:28:02 AM »
I should have looked at this one sooner,  i know the carriage you are talking about and there is one a yorktown  in downtown.  i will take a pic or to and put them up as soon as i can.

rick bryan

Offline keoweechristopher

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Re: Verbruggen "grasshopper" and "butterfly" carriage expertise??
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2011, 11:33:53 AM »
I fire the gun at Cowpens National Battlefield in SC, which is a Col. Patteson's model light 3 pdr on a Grasshopper (single trail) carriage.  This is one of two guns which were a gift to the US from Great Britain on our 200th birthday, so I expect that the barrel and carriage are as authentic as they come, having been made in the country of origin.  Perhaps they were made from the drawings referenced in one of the earlier posts by the British firm  If you still need pictures, I'd be happy to send some.  Let me know if you'd like any particular details on the gun.

Offline Zulu

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Re: Verbruggen "grasshopper" and "butterfly" carriage expertise??
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2011, 12:09:55 PM »
I fire the gun at Cowpens National Battlefield in SC, which is a Col. Patteson's model light 3 pdr on a Grasshopper (single trail) carriage.  This is one of two guns which were a gift to the US from Great Britain on our 200th birthday, so I expect that the barrel and carriage are as authentic as they come, having been made in the country of origin.  Perhaps they were made from the drawings referenced in one of the earlier posts by the British firm  If you still need pictures, I'd be happy to send some.  Let me know if you'd like any particular details on the gun.

keoweechristopher, (wow, that's a mouthful) ;D
Welcome to the board.
I think all of us are interested in pictures of this carriage.  Especially if it is a single trail.  Could you post pictures here?
I have been to Cowpens but it has been a long time ago.
Zulu
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Offline gunsonwheels

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Re: Verbruggen "grasshopper" and "butterfly" carriage expertise??
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2011, 02:41:50 PM »
rotunda tokk about 130 pictures of the model and sent them to me via a CD ROM disk.  Between the disk and the drawings I received from AOP I'm a little overwhelmed with data.  There is a ton of individual pieces making up the carriage and wheels and with Tony's pictures there appears to be no lack of information for doing the build.  I suspect only as each piece and sub-assembly is fabricated and assembled will one know if there is anything lacking. 
 
I do thank all who have added to the info collected.  And also offer to share whatever I have with any fellow "gunners" who want to do the Verbruggen/Grasshopper combo.

Offline Zulu

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Re: Verbruggen "grasshopper" and "butterfly" carriage expertise??
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2011, 04:17:13 PM »
gunsonwheels,
Is it a single trail or a double trail carriage?
Zulu
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Offline gunsonwheels

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Re: Verbruggen "grasshopper" and "butterfly" carriage expertise??
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2011, 07:54:39 PM »
Zulu:
It is a split trail very similar to the one in Peterson's Round Shot and Rammers and thus very similar to yours... There appears to be more than twice as many "irons" making up the carriage and wheels from say a #1 CW ordnance carriage also like yours... you made both and can better comment on the work effort to do one versus the other.  In the next few days I'll post some of Tony's pictures of details and maybe take a few of the drawings just to to show the enormity of it all.  And yes I'm not sure but what I am considering something different for an ordnance project.  Either that or modifying some aspects of it to save time and piece parts built to preserve overall authenticity of appearance.
 
GOW

Offline Indygunworks

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Re: Verbruggen "grasshopper" and "butterfly" carriage expertise??
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2013, 08:42:03 AM »
Ill resurrect this thread....
 
Gunsonwheels, do you still have the cd w/ all the pictures?

Offline Double D

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Re: Verbruggen "grasshopper" and "butterfly" carriage expertise??
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2013, 03:30:11 PM »
Indy, you are talking to a post made almost 2 years ago...GoW hasn't been on here for a while....last visit was a month ago...send him a PM...tell him he is missed.

Offline Indygunworks

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Re: Verbruggen "grasshopper" and "butterfly" carriage expertise??
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2013, 03:33:45 PM »
I realized it was old.  I have already sent a PM to him.  Maybe he will get an email alert and check in!

Offline brass cannon

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Re: Verbruggen "grasshopper" and "butterfly" carriage expertise??
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2013, 07:16:18 PM »
I have over 200 photos of the details of an 18th century gunner's model of a grasshopper carriage which is currently at Woolwich.  The tube has the Irish harp and a cast loop under the neck of the cascabel making it a Townsend.  It also shows the brackets which support the trail box and the shafts used for the Irish carry.  I will post some of them tomorrow when I am at my computer.  BC