Author Topic: KABOOM and other things. (Read 1781 times)

petemi · « **on:** May 22, 2011, 01:35:47 AM »

My Handis, for the most part are on black synthetic or BC stocks. Patty and I were dusting jugs yesterday. I was shooting my Maxi shortie and Patty her .270 and her .22 Mag Sportster. The Sportster wears a red dot and she did some very serious jug killing with it. I decided to get my .223 and went to the "Ready Service Locker" by the back door, meaning they are loaded all the time, and grabbed the rifle. At the bench, I lined up on a jug about 75 yards out and let it go. The jug vaporized. A rude awakening. I had grabbed the .500 S&W

We're going to a shoot this summer where we shoot for two days. Patty was concerned about developing a flinch with the .270 with standard loads. I scrounged around and came up with 130 gr. Hornady SP over 14 gr. Trail Boss for 1300 and change fps. I rolled 10 of them for her to try, and she loved them. Very mild and accurate inside 100 yards. I'll load 200 of them for her to take to the shoot, plus some stiffer loads with H4198 for the 275 yard gongs. I'm hoping to put together a Handi .357 for her before the shoot. She's not going to hunt with it so it doesn't need to go to Max and it is a good way to use up a SB1 frame I have.

I have 3 red dots, 3 stock sets, 3 frames and a 3-9x50 collecting dust as well as a 4x32 Scout. I'm going to take the 3-9x50 off the shortie Maxi and replace it with the Scout. I think it is more in keeping with the compactness if the little rifle.

Sorry for rambling.

Pete

bikerbeans · « **Reply #1 on:** May 22, 2011, 06:43:51 AM »

Pete,

IF I can make the shoot this summer I will bring some of the 45-70 subsonic loads I worked up with 700X. These are very low recoil and not that bad of accuracy out to about 100 yards. Patty would enjoy shooting these. I may load up some other slow poke rounds for one my other handis.

Are you telling me a 500 S&W has a little more recoil than a 223 Rem?

Good think you didn't hand the "223" to the Missus to shoot that jug.

BB

Shu · « **Reply #2 on:** May 22, 2011, 07:04:42 AM »

Pete,
I am a firm believer in using light loads for plinking and for general shooting. I use the GMDR data link form this forum alot. When I am going hunting I step things up a bit and go for more velocity. I can load about 700 rounds of 45-70 from a pound of bullseye or 700x. If I am going to hunt large game I can easily step up to more velocity and practice with those before hunting. Trigger time is much more fun this way.

I did kind of the same thing you did with your 500. I was shooting a 458 off hand and was getting tired. I switched to the 223 and the first shot hit about 15 feet in front of me. Maybe just maybe I developed a flinch.

Spanky · « **Reply #3 on:** May 22, 2011, 04:42:39 PM »

Those 500's will sure pop the top of a jug won't they Pete.

Those 270 loads with TB sound pretty good too. I like using TB in my 500 and my nephew likes it in his 44 mag. The only problem is I can't reload 'em as fast as he shoots 'em up.

I don't mind... he's a great kid and I'm happy to spend the time with him.

Spanky

Dinny · « **Reply #4 on:** May 22, 2011, 08:34:06 PM »

Pete,
I think you found a good cure for the average flinch. Make all your Handi barrels the same length, with the same stock sets and scope or sights. Load them. Have Patti mix them all up and lean them against your shooting bench. Shoot away, never knowing which is which, until you pull the trigger....

Repeat until it's time for dinner.

Thanks, Dinny

briannmilewis · « **Reply #5 on:** May 23, 2011, 10:47:35 AM »

Quote from: Shu on May 22, 2011, 07:04:42 AM

Pete,
I can load about 700 rounds of 45-70 from a pound of bullseye or 700x.

Shu, now you have my attention. 700 rounds from a pound of powder is like 22 Hornet loads! I am impressed, and would like to know other loads for other calibers that use so little powder for plinking and range use. I am cheap, and 30g of powder is a lot of powder when working with small cases. Are Bullseye and 700x low density powders? (I have no idea if "low density" is even the right word.)

Shu · « **Reply #6 on:** May 23, 2011, 01:49:04 PM »

If you google "GMDR lever data" or use the link in the FAQ section you can find the load data.
10 grains of Bullseye or 700x behind a 405 grain cast bullet is about 1000fps. It is pleasant and fun to shoot. 10 grains per round, 7000 grains per pound is how I did the math. By the way 9 grains of either will be 777. I use a large rifle magnum primer to light things off.
The Lyman Manual suggests 12-17 grains of Unique for a 405 grain cast.

CAUTION- these are fast burning pistol powders. Without careful loading techniques you can very easily double charge or worse.
I size and prime all my cases, put powder in one and seat a bullet. This is my slow way of keeping myself from a double charge. Powder in only one case at a time.

mechanic · « **Reply #7 on:** May 23, 2011, 06:16:43 PM »

Quote from: Shu on May 23, 2011, 01:49:04 PM

If you google "GMDR lever data" or use the link in the FAQ section you can find the load data.
10 grains of Bullseye or 700x behind a 405 grain cast bullet is about 1000fps. It is pleasant and fun to shoot. 10 grains per round, 7000 grains per pound is how I did the math. By the way 9 grains of either will be 777. I use a large rifle magnum primer to light things off.
The Lyman Manual suggests 12-17 grains of Unique for a 405 grain cast.

CAUTION- these are fast burning pistol powders. Without careful loading techniques you can very easily double charge or worse.
I size and prime all my cases, put powder in one and seat a bullet. This is my slow way of keeping myself from a double charge. Powder in only one case at a time.

I use 3 loading trays, and do one step at a time. A mistake with Bullseye could be permanent!!!

Old Fart · « **Reply #8 on:** May 24, 2011, 05:00:08 AM »

1+ Mechanic. One of the failing of us old reloaders is forgetting not everyone has the experience to do reduced loads. I'm not talking about everyone or anyone here so don't get your feathers ruffled fellows. Back when I first started reloading it was to extend my shooting dollars and I experimented with lots of fast burning powders. I was lucky and never had a double charge because I always take care to double check a ensure single charges. Over the years I have been guilty of sharing reduced loads without the disclaimer. I'm working on that.

petemi · « **Reply #9 on:** May 24, 2011, 05:15:14 AM »

Quote from: Shu on May 23, 2011, 01:49:04 PM

CAUTION- these are fast burning pistol powders. Without careful loading techniques you can very easily double charge or worse.
I size and prime all my cases, put powder in one and seat a bullet. This is my slow way of keeping myself from a double charge. Powder in only one case at a time.

Shu, that's exaclty what I do, charge one case at a time, seat the bullet and go on to the next one. I've got lots of time and am in no rush. Better safe than sorry.

Pete

Shu · « **Reply #10 on:** May 24, 2011, 11:51:26 AM »

Safety is important and since many of us only chat through these forums, you can only guess at anothers experience level. A safety warning or caution is probably not needed but I would rather try to be thorough in an answer when it comes to reloading. With contoversy around light loads using fast pistol powders I just try to add them in. A double charge can easily cause catastrophic disassembly of the gun and shooter. Powders and primers can be dangerous just like the 97,000 other things around the house we use daily.
Saftey does not need an apology.

Besides I like to hear how others reload also. Maybe I can pick up something new from another reloader.

wreckhog · « **Reply #11 on:** May 24, 2011, 06:20:54 PM »

I am guessing that Bullseye has been responsible for more KABOOMS than all other powder combined. Trail Boss is good to learn on. Bullseye is for the more precise and practiced reloaders IMHO.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #12 on:** May 25, 2011, 12:44:03 AM »

Quote from: wreckhog on May 24, 2011, 06:20:54 PM

I am guessing that Bullseye has been responsible for more KABOOMS than all other powder combined. Trail Boss is good to learn on. Bullseye is for the more precise and practiced re-loaders IMHO.

EXCELLENT post!

Bullseye is COMPLETELY SAFE when used in cases and calibers its designed for...

Using fast pistol powders like this, in an attempt to make large bullets go slow from big cases can cause a bog KABOOM. VERY appropriate title Pete!!!

Guys PLEASE BE CAREFUL with such loadings!!! If your not experienced DO NOT TRY THIS. Any time a case is charged with powder they will not at least half fill the case problems could occur. Specifically if the powder is below the flash hole, when the case is on its side, detonation can occur. Detonation can utterly destroy a firearm. May times taking body parts with it! In a rifle, your face is MIGHTY close to the explosion.... Just saying.

$:-\$

Trail boss and XMP 5744 are MUCH BETTER choices than powders like Bullseye.... Just my 2 cents.

CW

bikerbeans · « **Reply #13 on:** May 25, 2011, 02:44:51 AM »

The rifle cartridge data using pistol powders (link posted earlier in this thread) is based on firing over 80,000 rounds. No detonations reported.

Bullseye and 700X are using in 1911 45ACPs for BULLSEYE Competitions every week in this country. All of these loadings are well below 50% case capacity. Every month, I personnally load 500 to 1000 Bullseye rounds ( 700 x powder) for the 45ACP at a charge weight well below the minimum posted by Hodgdon. I am not alone, most of the shooters that I know of use similar light charges. No Detonations that I am aware of with these rounds.

I have seen detonation reported as a real fact but I have yet to read a documented report that it is a real occurance. Can somebody please give me a link that will show me detonation has been proved to be real?

IMHO, the second shots after a squib load (bullet stuck in the bore) are a real issue with light loads. Double & Triple charges of pistol powders are a VERY REAL issue and can definitely unglue a firearm.

BB

wreckhog · « **Reply #14 on:** May 25, 2011, 04:48:05 AM »

How about a double charge of Bullseye? It is probably impossible to double charge Trail Boss.

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/bullseye-v-21.html

bikerbeans · « **Reply #15 on:** May 25, 2011, 05:53:26 AM »

Quote from: wreckhog on May 25, 2011, 04:48:05 AM

How about a double charge of Bullseye? It is probably impossible to double charge Trail Boss.

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/bullseye-v-21.html

wreck,

I agree with you on the problem of double charging with Bullseye or any of the fast pistol powders. I suspect that detonation is actually a double or over charge of fast powder. I guess if you blow your handgun up it saves face to claim detonation rather than admit you might have made a loading error. Problem is if you only overloaded one cartridge you just destroyed the evidence by pulling the trigger.

As you & others have pointed out using TB powder for low velocity rounds pretty much elimates the Kaboom problem. I also think that proper handloading technique with the pistol powders (fill one case, seat one bullet, repeat) will prevent a Kaboom.

BB

Shu · « **Reply #16 on:** May 25, 2011, 01:11:27 PM »

Detonation by using fast burning propellants in large cases hasn't been proven and certainly hasn't been duplicated in any lab. I have fired several hundred of these rounds.
Bulleye, 700x and Unique always get the blame for being bad actors but I just have never seen a case of actual detonation as desribed.

The faster powders require more attention to detail. More inspection is required when using them. This includes pistol cartriges also.

I appreciate CW's cautions. He has found a safe way to deal with this. Use a bulkier powder. I read previously CW has about 30 +years reloading experience. Thats 30 +years of good safety. Not to be taken lightly
Pete uses the same technique I do and the Mechanic uses a 3rd block. I also have 30 + years of reloding experience. I have never blown up a gun either.
Bottom line whichever you decide to do, it is your choice and always be safe.

Matt3357 · « **Reply #17 on:** May 25, 2011, 01:36:15 PM »

You know what would be nice? If someone would come up with a reduced load manual. Doubt any company would want to deal with the liability from the safety issues above, but it would be nice for those reloaders that have enough experience to load safely.

Thanks,
Matt

cwlongshot · « **Reply #18 on:** May 25, 2011, 04:39:58 PM »

Quote from: bikerbeans on May 25, 2011, 02:44:51 AM

The rifle cartridge data using pistol powders (link posted earlier in this thread) is based on firing over 80,000 rounds. No detonations reported.

Bullseye and 700X are using in 1911 45ACPs for BULLSEYE Competitions every week in this country. All of these loadings are well below 50% case capacity. Every month, I personally load 500 to 1000 Bullseye rounds ( 700 x powder) for the 45ACP at a charge weight well below the minimum posted by Hodgdon. I am not alone, most of the shooters that I know of use similar light charges. No Detonations that I am aware of with these rounds.

I have seen detonation reported as a real fact but I have yet to read a documented report that it is a real occurrence. Can somebody please give me a link that will show me detonation has been proved to be real?

IMHO, the second shots after a squib load (bullet stuck in the bore) are a real issue with light loads. Double & Triple charges of pistol powders are a VERY REAL issue and can definitely unglued a firearm.

BB

BB,
I too have loaded countless thousands of Bullseye loaded 45 ACP and 38 SPL loadings. With out issue.

Detonation is a problem with light charges of fast burning powder trying to move light bullets in large cases. While the 45 ACP is large compared to a 380 or a 32 ACP its not considered a large case... I am speaking more to the comments about the 45/70 and in less regard the 45 long colt as well.

As for undocumented proof... I have seen it happen myself.. A man beside me was shooing, I noticed he was pointing the muzzle skyward before every shot. I thought it odd. I knew what he was attempting. He wanted the powder against the primer, probably in an effort to get consistent burn for better accuracy.... A short time later I herd an odd bang and looked to see him standing holding a smoking gun... missing its top strap and part of the cylinders. juts like many other pictures most of us have seen.

Believe what you want, I for one feel even the chance of such a thing happening is enough for me to choose another route for lower velocity rounds. Stick to the manuels, even then I like to see others with same loadings.

CW

gcrank1 · « **Reply #19 on:** May 26, 2011, 04:07:12 AM »

A book of reduced loads; its been around about forever: The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook
Yes, it says cast bullet, but the high end loads (still reduced) work fine for slower loads with jacketed than full house loads. Example, 30-30 jacketed bullets in a 30-06 or 308 will work as well at in a 30-30. For lead you have powderpuff on up to any reasonable speed for the alloy.
Anybody interested in reduced loads should have this book!

McDerry · « **Reply #20 on:** May 26, 2011, 10:22:35 PM »

Personally I enjoy 10 grs of red dot in a 45/70 case.

petemi · « **Reply #21 on:** May 27, 2011, 03:26:54 AM »

Quote from: Matt3357 on May 25, 2011, 01:36:15 PM

You know what would be nice? If someone would come up with a reduced load manual. Doubt any company would want to deal with the liability from the safety issues above, but it would be nice for those reloaders that have enough experience to load safely.
Thanks,
Matt

That would be nice. So would a book on pistol calibers in rifles. I don't know if one exists.

Pete

Shu · « **Reply #22 on:** May 27, 2011, 05:54:17 AM »

Pete,
I have an older Speer manual and it shows some pistol calibers in rifles. Mostly the load data is using the slower powders like H110, W296, 2400 etc.
That Lyman cast bullet book is an outstanding resource also. There is just all kinds of good data out there. The companies got some good tech reps willing to help out also.

38 specials in a 357 rifle is a good training/plinking round.

petemi · « **Reply #23 on:** May 27, 2011, 06:29:14 AM »

Shu, I have a hard time keeping up loading .38 Specials. Patty and I shoot hundreds of them. Right now, I'm pretty close to the bottom of the apple barrel. The next rainy day will be spent loading .38s. I've got lots and lots of brass, but I think I need to order bullets.

Pete

wreckhog · « **Reply #24 on:** May 27, 2011, 06:35:13 AM »

If you are loading, what is the difference between loading a .38 and a .357? 1-2 cents of powder.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #25 on:** May 27, 2011, 06:43:57 AM »

Id load whatever velo level I want in the brass that fills the chamber.

Shu · « **Reply #26 on:** May 27, 2011, 08:25:02 AM »

Difference between a 38 and 357 a few cents in powder? Yes, velocity and recoil also.
For general plinking the 38s are great. It is not exactly a question of economics. Shooting a 38 at 200 yards is fun. Its great for practice for longer range shooting. A 357 at 400 yards and you are talking about the old trapdoor stuff.
I load 38s to be subsonic and 357s over 1300 fps. The boxes of 38s always seem to disappear faster. I shoot alot of 45-70 at 1000 fps it is alot of fun hitting gongs at 200 yards etc. That is the advantage of reloading. I don't think there is one caliber superior to another...

jedman · « **Reply #27 on:** May 27, 2011, 01:36:34 PM »

After re reading Petes mishap it reminded me of what happened to some friends of mine not once but twice. Eric & Jesse, ( brothers ) and there dad Tim all have the same make & model rifles with the same exact scopes on them. One is a 270 Win. One is a 25-06 and the other is a 7MM Rem Mag.
Well they were together shooting and one of the boys put a 270 in the 7 Mag and fired it, Ka Boom.!! From what I heard gas blew back in the face of the shooter but he was not injured.
Two years later the two boys are shootin again, this time not with there dad but they had his rifle, well the other son that laughed at his brother for being stupid the last time did the same thing. This time it was a 25-06 fired in the 7 Mag. this time the case ruptured and locked up the bolt where they couldn't open it. Lucky again no one was hurt but this second time did do some damage to the bolt in the rifle, I don't know what had to be fixed on it but it required a repair.
So even though Petes little suprise wasn't a danger it goes to show if you have guns that look very similar to others a mistake can be made easily enough. Jed

earl54 · « **Reply #28 on:** June 06, 2011, 05:33:57 PM »

A hint from an old reloader - DO NOT USE REDUCED LOADS WITH JACKETED BULLETS !!!!! if you want to play with reduced loads use cast bullets.If you stick a cast bullet in the barrel its not very hard to push out.A jacketed bullet acts like it is glued in,shows how much resistance a jacketed bullet has going downbore.Cast,lubed bullets have much less resistance.I shoot many cast loads out of a custom Mod 98,8mm,175gr@700fps - a very small charge of bullseye, the load works in my rifle and it has been worked up for my rifle.I have been loading for more than 40years,guns turn into bombs with only small mistakes,youall please be carefull - i enjoy this site and the people on it .Stay safe,Danny

Rifleman1000 · « **Reply #29 on:** June 09, 2011, 02:00:40 PM »

Just a word of caution.

Let me tell you a little story . About 2 years ago i was shooting in a match at my club using a Savage 22-250 model 11 . I was using remington factory ammo because i didn't have enough primers (this was when primers where impossible to find) to load my own .

About half way through the match i pick up a round and try to load it in the gun but i just couldn't close the bolt . It was almost completely closed but maybe the last 1/32 of the bolt throw wouldn't go. I feel i could have forced it easily but didn't thank god. I put the round aside and finish the match. When i inspected the round i found a 250 savage round .

When i called Remington they claim it happened when they switched over from one caliber to another. They gave ma a few boxes of ammo free and sent me on my way . Looking back on the incedent i realize how close i was to a major kaboom. 22-250 bullet is .224 and 250 savage is .258 could have been ugly . So its not only reloaded ammo to be concerned about but factory ammo too.