TC Scout...stuck round question

[bagdadjoe]

I just bought a Scout carbine, that I believe has a round stuck in it (so that I didn't have to go to the trouble of sticking one... )  My question is...does anyone know what length the bore is?  Before I try light off this round (remotely) I want to be sure it's seated all the way down.  I can get a rod about 20 1/4" into the bore..or about a 1/4" in front of where the frame meets the barrel, externally with about a 3/8" rod that sounds like it's hitting solid metal. Bore is rusty, think I'm going to take a shotgun brush with Kroil to it, almost dry, so I don't get it running into any powder that might be in there, so that the barrel is somewhat lubricated before I set it off.  I have a retaining wall and 50 yds of heavy line...... by the way, I only have $100 in it, ought to be worth at least half that if I don't blow it up

[bagdadjoe]

Well, I guess I posted in the right spot....Scout is kinda different but it's not considered an "inline" is it? If so, please excuse, move it  and smack me with a possibles pouch.....

[yooper77]

If i understand correctly you don't know who loaded it or what it's loaded with right?

I strongly suggest that you pull the projectile and don't attempt to fire it.

Click here for an item what can help you.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=456094

yooper77

[bagdadjoe]

thanks, meanwhile, I was sitting here and designed one myself.  I have some 3/8" rod that I can weld a coarse thread wood screw to and thread the other end and put a nut on it and then another nut to lock it and voila!  I'll be able to screw it into the ball then take a small piece of pipe over the rod and use it as a slide hammer against the nuts to pull it out.  I have the welder and taps at work and can do it tomorrow.

[bubba.50]

if you can find a grease fitting that'll fit the nipple threads you can safely pump it out. sad to say i have had to do this a cuppla times lately with a renegade . but they're 1/4x28 thread and scout is a bit different i believe. luck and enjoy yer gun, bubba.

[bagdadjoe]

Thanks Bubba! That is a gin-u-wine good idea and one I haven't heard before.  I'll check it out. I don't reckon the grease will hurt this one.  I'm hoping I can salvage it for at least piddly shooting, I'm afraid to look at the rifling in it...if there is still rifling in it.  I have some very fine lapping compound I'm going to try to derust the bore with, but it may be a lost cause. At least the nipple is stainless, it should come out.  I put a few drops of Kroil on it when I brought it home and I'll pick up a wrench tomorrow.
I never could understand why people pay good money for something and then let it rust up for no reason except laziness.  Human nature??

[bubba.50]

i found this little nugget of advise over on the muzzleloading forum while wondering what the heck to do about the bore mop wrapped with copper scouring pad that was stuck in my renegade barrel. since then have also used it on my first "dry-ball" and to unload a gunshow hawken that had the same problem as you. luck had it that renegades and such have 1/4x28threads-same as common fittings. don't know what threads a scout has or if you'll find one to fit but keep it in mind for when ya mess up with yer full-size guns. again, luck and have a good'en, bubba.

[coyotejoe]

I think you'll find there is nothing in there but rust and crud. The scout takes the prize as the worst muzzleloader ever designed. The breechplug extends all the way through the frame and threads into the barrel with a powder chamber about 3/8" diameter by 3/8" deep. So if your rod reaches to within 1/4" of the frame that's about the bottom of the powder chamber.
 As to why anyone would let it rust up, just play with it a while and you'll say "why not?"
 I got stuck with a Scout on a trade. It has lain around my shop for years because I didn't want to stick anyone else with it. So recently I cut the barrel in two to make two pistols out of it, that's the only use I could see for that idiotically designed POS.
 Oh and by the way, don't mess up the nipple because it is a "unique design" like the rest of the gun and you'll never find a replacement.

[bagdadjoe]

Yep, I already found a source for the nipples.   It seems like this is one of the guns that has a love/hate rep.  I find there's people who like them a lot (mainly the ones that shoot real blackpowder in them) and those like yourself that hate 'em.  I'm one of the obtuse ones that just has to find out for myself.  I reckon I have a 50/50 chance, either I'll like it.....or hate it.

And thanks again Bubba.  I'll know a little bit more about it tomorrow. 

[coyotejoe]

I think if anyone likes a Scout it's because they've never shot a good muzzleloader, loaded by someone who knows what they're doing. The Scout's cap sets about 3" from the powder chamber, the combined length of breechplug and nipple. How could anyone think that's a good idea? Hangfires are normal and misfires very common. I've seen lots of people on the range who have hangfires and don't even know there is anything wrong, they just think that's the way muzzleloaders work. Those people might be quite happy with a Scout.
But I totally understand your desire to try it and see for yourself, one learns a lot more from experience than from reading opinions online. My Scout experience gave me a blackpowder tatoo below my right eye.

[shakey]

Coyote, sorry for your bad experience with the Scout (...would like to hear about that "tatoo") but, I just have to take up for the Scout ...at least a little bit.  While I have to agree that the ignition system is a terrible design, if you approach it with a positive attitude and are willing to learn its idiosyncrasies, it can serve quite well.  The Scout I had was the pistol and, when I treated it right, was an awesome shooter ...very accurate and very powerful.

It's most annoying habit was dropping the spent cap down into the action and tying up the trigger. Misfires or hangfires were never an issue. That might be because, for me, it was strictly a hunting gun. Practice was always fired from a clean condition (or very nearly so), and I swabbed after EVERY shot.

Also, practice sessions were generally pretty short because the recoil from full house loads of holy black behind 370gr maxiballs was too punishing (to me) for extended shooting sessions. In short ...there was never any crud build up like would happen during a typical plinking or target session. 

I enjoyed hunting with it and it accounted for a little venison during the time I had it but. when a friend offered to trade me even for a Ruger Old Army, ...well, what would you have done???

[coyotejoe]

I'd have suggested my friend have his head examined!
But yes, I can see your point, I'm sure one can learn to limp along with the design defects if they are really determined to do so. My point is why would anyone design and market a gun with such obvious  defects?

[bagdadjoe]

I had a Greyhawk....does that qualify as a "real" muzzleloader?  It shot 3" groups at 100 with iron sights. 
I don't know why anyone would design such a monster, but I find it interesting to not only get things to work for me that don't want to..but to get them to work well, mainly so I can say nay-nay-nay-nay to the nay-sayers. 
Coyote was right about one thing, no load, just stopped up so that no air would go through it.  I broke it all the way down and pulled the plug and poked at it with a length of wound guitar string and voila! it was empty... so "DUH".  Thanks for all the suggestions, I'll know what to do when I do mess up.... and after a liberal dose of Kroil with a bronze brush up and down the bore about 25 times, let sit 24 hours and swab out....it is mostly shiney!!  Shocking!  Hopefully I'll be able to fire it off this weekend...  Range report upcoming...the good, the bad and maybe the ugly. 

[shakey]

Wow Coyote !!!  You really are down on Scouts aren't you? Yours must have given you a real bad time. I would be interested in hearing about it. Even though I never liked the design, mine was not really much of a problem and worked just fine for a hunting gun. My only concession to it was to keep it reasonably clean.  Since that is my nature anyway, I didn't feel like I was limping too badly.  Maybe mine was an exception. Since it was the only Scout I ever shot I really don't know.

Don't worry about the guy that got it from me. He did OK. He wanted a hunting gun and the Scout was better suited for that than the ROA. Before someone takes issue with that statement, the game laws allowed the Scout and not the ROA so the point is moot.

Bagdadjoe, I apologize for straying a little off-thread.  If the gun cleans up OK and the nipple is in good shape I'll bet you don't have any trouble at all getting it to work fine. You seem to be heading down the right track.

You didn't ask for any loading help but I hope you don't mind a few observations. Black powder is always easiest to ignite and the nipple and chamber work best clean and dry. Big revelation huh?  The only thing I could suggest that is not quite so obvious is to be sure the powder makes it all the way to the bottom of the "chamber". Bang on the side of the gun a few times before ramming the pullet to break up any powder "bridging". Don't make it complicated, just pay attention to details.

I don't know what your experience level is and hope I haven't insulted your intelligence.

Good luck at the range, I'm looking forward to a good report.

[wiley]

Another unique to the Scout feature are the holes on either side of the receiver. They are vent holes for the cap, but also vent propellent gas when it goes off. Crawling up the stock will get that tatoo for you!

[coyotejoe]

I had a Greyhawk....does that qualify as a "real" muzzleloader?  It shot 3" groups at 100 with iron sights. 
I don't know why anyone would design such a monster, but I find it interesting to not only get things to work for me that don't want to..but to get them to work well, mainly so I can say nay-nay-nay-nay to the nay-sayers. 
Coyote was right about one thing, no load, just stopped up so that no air would go through it.  I broke it all the way down and pulled the plug and poked at it with a length of wound guitar string and voila! it was empty... so "DUH".  Thanks for all the suggestions, I'll know what to do when I do mess up.... and after a liberal dose of Kroil with a bronze brush up and down the bore about 25 times, let sit 24 hours and swab out....it is mostly shiney!!  Shocking!  Hopefully I'll be able to fire it off this weekend...  Range report upcoming...the good, the bad and maybe the ugly.

I didn't write "real muzzleloader" I said "good muzzleloader" and apparently your Greyhawk, though not very traditional is a "good" muzzleloader and obviously you have found a good load for it. And when you get some time in with your Scout I think you'll find Coyotejoe was right about more than "one thing", but good luck to you as always.

[bagdadjoe]

Thanks!  I'll probably need all the luck I can get.  Today's the day hopefully.  At least the barrel cleaned up.  I'm going to see if I can scrounge up some blackpowder today at the "country" gun shop up the road. If not, I still have some Pyrodex and Clean Shot I can try and also a little 4f blackpowder for titillating the nipple if I have to (can't believe I said that!).  Anyway, thanks to everyone for the info and warnings, I'll be watching this little critter for bad behavior.
Nobody insulted my intelligence...would be such a big insult anyway   

[bagdadjoe]

It goes boom...  I swabbed it out another 3-4 times, kept getting rusty swabs out.  Made some lube last night out of beeswax and olive oil ("hippie lube"...a few drops of patchouly oil in it) found some really thin close woven cotton and cut some approx. 1x1 squares, grabbed the Pyrodex (didn't leave the house yesterday to try to track down any Goex) and went downstairs to the "range" behind the house. I loaded and capped it and "click".  My head started swirling and I could hear the voices..."misfires", "hangfires", "worst ever made", "you'll shoot your eye out, ol' geezer"..  I recovered and tried a couple more, same thing.  Then on #4, she goes boom.  After that for the next 6 shots, ran like a Buick, no misfires, just worked.  I don't know what kind of accuracy I should be getting, 'cause I never shot round balls before, just Buffalo bullets in the Greyhawk.  At 50 yds it kept them all on the paper...almost.  Number 3 was off to the left about an inch and #5 about the same to the right.  All would have been "center-mass" on a Redcoat, but that's about it, no real group.  I'm guessing my patchs may have been the main problem as they weren't uniform.  Still, all in all I'm pretty stoked about my "C-note smokepole"!  Can't wait to get a proper mold and run some bullets thru it.  Scouts are 1in38" twist...not the best for RPB's??? 

[shakey]

Joe, ...sorry to hear your first session with the Scout didn't go so well. But, at least you know it will go BANG.  I think you're probably right about the round balls in a 38" twist barrel being the problem. I have heard that some of the Scouts had an even faster twist. Don't know which ones. I would expect conicals or sabots to work much better.

I read your post about your 'new' Lyman.  If my recollection is right those are pretty nice rifles. I've got a feeling that Scout project is going to wind up on a back burner.