May be our last chance to save the nation..

[Cabin4]

I agree that a good argument can be made that many of these subsidies are a kind of welfare. They simply need to be ended. If I had land that was capable of a subsidy, I would go get it. Plain and simple. It’s my money. In the case of many of these subsidies, the recipient is paying taxes and likely a high amount. So calling it pure welfare is a stretch. But in any case, most of these subsidies started with good intention (like farm subsidies) but they have gotten out of control. They have simply become a tool for politicians to provide favors to their supporters

[Gary G]

How did farm subsidies begin? During the great depression prices were falling. Roosevelt felt that if he could hold prices up it would end the depression. This was faulty reasoning. Roosevelt paid farmers not to plant. Many people then were farm labor or tenant farmers. The result was that the farm owners sat on their porch collecting a government check while farm laborers became unemployed. Another result was that food prices did indeed stop falling because less was produced. Starving people now had a real burden. Government meddling does not work and always has unintended consequences. Government meddling is what made the great depression so great.

Until my allotment phased out, I got paid for not planting cotton. I have borrowed on their loan programs, but have found it best just to do what I could with cash payments. Now, I don't fool with them. The big corporate farmers are the ones taking the largess in a big way. They lobby congress to keep it going while small family farms are disappearing.

The fact is, for government to give anyone anything, they must first steal it from someone else. And it is stealing because it is never given voluntarily, but extracted by force or threat of force.

[Mike38]

Quote from mirage1988:

ou need to get your medication adjusted if you think tax breaks for farmers are the same thing as welfare.

I tend to agree with you however many on this board see it as welfare, just ask Dee.
GliderJohn

If you lived in a farming community like I do, you’d know that farm subsidies are welfare. Heck, the farmers around here brag about getting their checks, then in the next breath talk about where they are going to spend three months out of the winter, in Florida, Texas or Arizona. Then when they get back from their winter retreat, they go to the implement dealer and buy a new $100K combine, and pay cash for it. Yea, farming is real tough. 

[mirage1988]

Actually I grew up on a farm in minnesota, we don't have "farming communities" up here, we have small towns. The growing season here is too short to hang around the commune bragging about how you took advantage of the gov't.

[ironglow]

Junior says;
   "25,000 a year would buy lots of milk for hungry children.  It bought Michelle Bachmann what?  Car payments???   Furniture??  Welfare for one isn't welfare for another one?  Milk is bad but furniture isn't? "
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  A few points
 1) You bring up the old, worn spectre of "milk for hungry children"..I know.."it's for the Childrreen"..   Actually, we taxpayers are already paying, welfare, WIC, headstart, foodstamps and about a hundred other bills for the children...and still there are some (not all) of these people, who just seem to always have 'hungry children' !  Yup..they may be getting their beer, cigarettes, pot or whatever their diversion is and still find time to go out and breed more..but their children are continually in need need of milk..give us a break !
 
 2) You seem to forget..the subsidy was paid out to a Mr Bachmann, but not Michelle's Mr Bachmann..

 3) You ASSUME what Michelle bought with any funds received, if they were received, was furniture..how do you know that ?

4) I live in a farming area, our farmers do not spend winters in Florida..they are too busy working..Machinery and facilities must be maintained and livestock must be cared  for all winter long.

 5) Farming is a very competitive business and as with any other business, there are others growing and marketing the same product(s) you are.  If you don't take advantage of every legal benefit..you're a bad businessman.
 
       AND MOST IMPORTANT !
           
                              Junior says $25,000 would by lots of milk for hungry children.. 

       Just how much milk would the following unnecessary expenditures buy ?

  1) Flights by Air Force One and all the attendant cost , just to play golf.

  2) Vacations in Spain for Michelle O. and her entourage @ a total cost of $200,000,000 !

  3) A "personal stafff" of appx 40 people for a 'first lady'..who wasn't elected to anything.

  4) Very costly vacations to various parts of the world every couple weeks..costing $58,000 per hour for Air Force One alone !
         It sure seems like a few less vacations (from what?) would save millions in "milk money".

  5) Can you hazard a guess at how much "milk money" would be saved if only half the vacations was spent at nearby Camp David; which is already being maintained, staffed and equipped at the people's expense...

   6) How much money would have been saved, had Michelle O taken a couple of those bi-monthly, multi-million dollar breaks from her strenuous work... at very convenient Camp David ?

[Junior1942]

So, ironglow, Republican presidents can travel but Democrat presidents can't?  You're digging in the bottom of the spin barrel.

[guzzijohn]

Quote from Mike 38:

If you lived in a farming community like I do, you’d know that farm subsidies are welfare. Heck, the farmers around here brag about getting their checks, then in the next breath talk about where they are going to spend three months out of the winter, in Florida, Texas or Arizona. Then when they get back from their winter retreat, they go to the implement dealer and buy a new $100K combine, and pay cash for it. Yea, farming is real tough.

Where abouts is this easy farming community? It is not in central Kanas. I grew up a farm kid, I currently own farm land but I have it share cropped. The farmer that works my land does not go anywhere in the winter, he is too busy repairing equipment, tending to cattle, doing books and more to leave. Same for the other family farms around me. When I was growing up we took two four day vacations in 18 years. A neighbor farmer's only time away from his dairy/farm was when he had to have a hernia operation. These people work their butts off. By the way most new combines cost over 300K. Next time you open your mouth to eat, think about where the food came from. Learn about farming before bi------ about it.
GuzziJohn

[beerbelly]

Wreckhog is a good little communist , he wants to feed the world. But like all good little communist , he wants to feed them with your money!

[ironglow]

So, ironglow, Republican presidents can travel but Democrat presidents can't?  You're digging in the bottom of the spin barrel.

  OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo

Junior;  your replies are so inane and sophomoric, am inclined to not even answer them.  Neither Laura, nor Nancy or even Hillary spent $200,000,000 to haul themselves and their 40 friends butts off to Spain or anywhere else for a vacation.  ..40 compadres..$200,000,000 in taxpayer dollars...perhaps she should be nicknamed "Ali Baba" ...and you already know what the 40 are called !  Rings true, doesn't it !
  B Hussein admits we are in a financial crisis..I believe that is exactly where he and Soros wants the US.. 
  Michelle spends  $200,000,000..now Barry says he wants to borrow billions of dollars we don't have...just to give it free of charge to Egypt and Libya.   "SPREAD THE WEALTH... even if we have to borrow it to"spread" !
         I'm sure Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood and Hezbollah..and probably Al Queda..will make good use of it !

[FourBee]

I hope there is a solution for America.  Up to this point in my life, except for a few upswings, the government has taken us down to the present.
Remember, a few years ago, when I told you of a 1920 Prophesy, (one of several that came true by the way), that went forth from an American Pentacostal Preacher?   I've never forgotten it.  If my memory is correct it kinda went like this ~  ~...
" The last President of the United States of America -  will be a beautiful woman;  She will be hard on the people."
Wonder if he's gonna hit this one on the head too?

[nw_hunter]

I hope there is a solution for America.  Up to this point in my life, except for a few upswings, the government has taken us down to the present.
Remember, a few years ago, when I told you of a 1920 Prophesy, (one of several that came true by the way), that went forth from an American Pentacostal Preacher?   I've never forgotten it.  If my memory is correct it kinda went like this ~  ~...
" The last President of the United States of America -  will be a beautiful woman;  She will be hard on the people."
Wonder if he's gonna hit this one on the head too?

One out of two if it's Hillary!

[loneviking]

I've got a bad feeling that we will look back on 2008 as the last free elections in this country. The problem is that there are so many nitwits around now that feel entitled to something that there's no way to fix the financial mess.

From the teachers and public unions in Wisconsin that would wreck the state to preserve their entitlements to the budget fights in Congress that only saved (at best) 32 billion...there are too many Americans that won't stand for any curtailment of entitlements such as Medicare.  Politicians don't want to commit political suicide, so they go along. And all the time we are hurtling off an economic cliff that can lead straight to martial law, tyranny and civil war.

[Lost Farmboy]

Last free election in 2008?  I think that number needs to be revised down some.  How much? I don't know.  The criminals that control the country stole the Minnesota election for Al Franken so Obama could pass his healthcare destruction bill and carbon taxes.  Obama destroyed healthcare and would have broke the nation with carbon taxes if Ted Kennedy didn't die and get replaced with a republican.

Many say the criminals that control the country stole the elections in 2000 and 2004 for GWB.  Maybe they were too close to tell.  The last free election, just too hard to tell.

[FourBee]

How can a nation say they don't want to live under a one world government, and yet continue marching to the tune?

[ironglow]

Fourbee;
  In all due respect, I take any contemporary man's "prophesy" if it were claimed as a 'revelation', with a grain of salt. The age of true prophets has been over with the completion of the Scriptures.
   There are however, some very good extrapolations made by considering history, human psyche and current events..a very good guess toward the future... as shown by past events.
   For anyone who is the least bit studied up on and cognizant of history, there is one pattern offered by a Prof Alexander Tyler, which likely paints a picture of our future.  Some dispute the authorship...a moot poiunt, since the truth remains, regardless who offered the formula.  Here is that formula:
`````````````````````````````````````````````
    A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

 A) From bondage to spiritual faith;
 B) From spiritual faith to great courage;
 C) From courage to liberty;
 D) From liberty to abundance;
 E) From abundance to selfishness;
 F) From selfishness to complacency;
 G) From complacency to apathy;
 H) From apathy to dependence;
 I) From dependence back into bondage
`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

  I figure we (the US) are about at stage F or G..  What say you guys ?

[Junior1942]

I say good luck in deciding whose "spiritual faith" the nation will follow.  I also say the USA is doing just fine as it is, thank you.  The 2008 election proved that.  All we have to do is occasionally remind the right wing religious fanatics that they are, in fact, religious fanatics.

[Cabin4]

I also say the USA is doing just fine as it is, thank you.  The 2008 election proved that. 

The USA is doing just fine and the 2008 election proved that! Thats amazing. Since 2008 our debt has more than doubled, unemployment is up 3% points, we are in another war,gas has risen to $4 a gallon and the patriot act has been reaffirmed.

If driving off the cliff is just fine, then I guess we are.

[FourBee]

Ironglow; I'm not being gullible, but found it interesting that it is telling about the era in which we are living.  I've noted as of late there may be two women who'll make a run for the White House in 2012.  That makes it even more interesting.

[powderman]

I also say the USA is doing just fine as it is, thank you.  The 2008 election proved that. 

The USA is doing just fine and the 2008 election proved that! Thats amazing. Since 2008 our debt has more than doubled, unemployment is up 3% points, we are in another war,gas has risen to $4 a gallon and the patriot act has been reaffirmed.

If driving off the cliff is just fine, then I guess we are.

CABIN 4. YEP. I sure don't see us as just fine either. POWDERMAN. 

[Junior1942]

I also say the USA is doing just fine as it is, thank you.  The 2008 election proved that. 

The USA is doing just fine and the 2008 election proved that! Thats amazing. Since 2008 our debt has more than doubled, unemployment is up 3% points, we are in another war,gas has risen to $4 a gallon and the patriot act has been reaffirmed.

If driving off the cliff is just fine, then I guess we are.

Well, Great Depression #2 didn't happen and powderman's theocracy hasn't taken over the USA.  That's all good!

[beerbelly]

Well, Great Depression #2 didn't happen

YET!

[Cabin4]

I also say the USA is doing just fine as it is, thank you.  The 2008 election proved that. 

The USA is doing just fine and the 2008 election proved that! Thats amazing. Since 2008 our debt has more than doubled, unemployment is up 3% points, we are in another war,gas has risen to $4 a gallon and the patriot act has been reaffirmed.

If driving off the cliff is just fine, then I guess we are.

Well, Great Depression #2 didn't happen and powderman's theocracy hasn't taken over the USA.  That's all good!

You must have a crystal ball and rose colored glasses.

[Junior1942]

I also say the USA is doing just fine as it is, thank you.  The 2008 election proved that. 

The USA is doing just fine and the 2008 election proved that! Thats amazing. Since 2008 our debt has more than doubled, unemployment is up 3% points, we are in another war,gas has risen to $4 a gallon and the patriot act has been reaffirmed.

If driving off the cliff is just fine, then I guess we are.

Well, Great Depression #2 didn't happen and powderman's theocracy hasn't taken over the USA.  That's all good!

You must have a crystal ball and rose colored glasses.

No cyrstal ball.  Just memory of the total financial meltdown which was about to happen near the end of GWB's term.  Speaking of rose colored glasses, you probably think things were fine and dandy near the end of GWB's term in office, right?  All those tax cuts for the super-wealthy helped the economy almost to the gutter.  Of course you probably think a few more tax cuts and we'd all be pickin' in high cotton, right?

[gypsyman]

Your right Junior, and alot of that close call meltdown, was caused by the Democrat controlled congress,(Barney Frank sucker and Pee Wee Schumer and the like) that forced banking standards to lend to un-qualified applicants.
As I see it, this nation is a boat that has burning for a couple decade's, and we're at the water line. It's about to go under, and unless you have your own life vests, it's along way to shore. gypsyman

[Junior1942]

Your right Junior, and alot of that close call meltdown, was caused by the Democrat controlled congress,(Barney Frank sucker and Pee Wee Schumer and the like) that forced banking standards to lend to un-qualified applicants.
As I see it, this nation is a boat that has burning for a couple decade's, and we're at the water line. It's about to go under, and unless you have your own life vests, it's along way to shore. gypsyman

So lending to unqualified--read that, poor--applicants caused "alot" of the meltdown? Gambling on derivatives by wealthy bankers and banks had nothing to do with it?

Why didn't GWB veto a lending bill which any fool should know would cause massive foreclosures?

Answer #1: wealthy Republicans in the banking, housing, real estate, and building industries thought it would create a building boom.

Answer #2: Rumsfeld & Cheney said, no, because of #1.

[Cabin4]

I also say the USA is doing just fine as it is, thank you.  The 2008 election proved that. 

The USA is doing just fine and the 2008 election proved that! Thats amazing. Since 2008 our debt has more than doubled, unemployment is up 3% points, we are in another war,gas has risen to $4 a gallon and the patriot act has been reaffirmed.

If driving off the cliff is just fine, then I guess we are.

Well, Great Depression #2 didn't happen and powderman's theocracy hasn't taken over the USA.  That's all good!

You must have a crystal ball and rose colored glasses.

No cyrstal ball.  Just memory of the total financial meltdown which was about to happen near the end of GWB's term.  Speaking of rose colored glasses, you probably think things were fine and dandy near the end of GWB's term in office, right?  All those tax cuts for the super-wealthy helped the economy almost to the gutter.  Of course you probably think a few more tax cuts and we'd all be pickin' in high cotton, right?

Now your dreaming Junior. But your doing a good job repeating the democrat talking points. The facts are the economy was in the ditch near the end of GWB term already. The bail outs were wrong under Bush and wrong under Obama. The preditory lending practices that evolved from massive home loan deregulation that started under Clinton and further under GWB. Do some research and watch the congressional oversight hearing that took place back in 2006. If you remember (No crystal ball needed) the dems took over congress and furhter institutued deregulation that led to the housing meltdown. The Gov Regulators testified before congress and warned them that is regulations were not altered, we would be in for a disaster. You beloved democrats led the hearings and did nothing.

There is a mess on both sides of the political spectrum. Both parties are horribel. If you things are "just fine" and all the obama policies are working, well I guess they are in your eye's. But that is not the the majority of peoples view of this. Most fair minded people see just more bad policies and the numbers that count seem to provide proof of that. But if you want to ignore the numbers and the math, then that is good for you. You can continue to think things are just fine. You must have thought it was utopia under Bush if what we have now if "just fine".

[Dixie Dude]

I think farm subsities should be eliminated.  If the money is available, use it instead to buy any excess produced by farmers for price supports, then can it, dry it, store it.  Use these stored excesses in bad years to keep food prices stable.  Also use the excess to provide true old fashioned welfare food to the ones who need it instead of food stamps.  Food stamps are used to buy a lot of processesed food, junk food like potato chips and candy, etc.  Comoddities like they once used provided true good food.  These commodities and/or welfare should require drug testing to receive any benefits.  The poor waste money.  For instance, I saw some poor people with kids this past weekend.  Some adults had teeth missing, but they all had tatoos.  If they had money for tatoos, they could have had some dental work.  They were overweight also, and the kids seemed well behaved.  So it couldn't have been from meth.  They were drinking beer and it was at a campground that I was thinking of staying at.  I see a lot of welfare recipiants who may drive an old car, but have "salad shooter" spinners on their wheels.  Stuff like that.  I think in order to receive welfare, they need to attend budgeting classes, and taught how to save.  I calculated a person earning minimum wage and saving 10% for about 30 years, would have a million dollars.  The poor can get out of their mess, they need to be taught how.  I do realise sometimes you can't fix stupid.  There will always be some who won't or can't learn, but back 50 years ago it wasn't as big a percentage. 

[Junior1942]

Look no further than the political party of business and industry to find out what happened to old fashioned commodities.  Replacing two women in an office in the local courthouse handing out hoop cheese, etc., to the poor once a month has changed to food stamps used in a supermarket for purchasing packages of sliced Kraft cheese, etc.  It helps the poor, yes, and it also brings profit to supermarkets and food giants like Kraft.  A box of commodities handed out a window to a poor person helped only the poor person and farmers.  Food stamps also help business.  Never mind the waste--it's only tax money...

[DDZ]

Fourbee;
  In all due respect, I take any contemporary man's "prophesy" if it were claimed as a 'revelation', with a grain of salt. The age of true prophets has been over with the completion of the Scriptures.
   There are however, some very good extrapolations made by considering history, human psyche and current events..a very good guess toward the future... as shown by past events.
   For anyone who is the least bit studied up on and cognizant of history, there is one pattern offered by a Prof Alexander Tyler, which likely paints a picture of our future.  Some dispute the authorship...a moot poiunt, since the truth remains, regardless who offered the formula.  Here is that formula:
`````````````````````````````````````````````
    A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

 A) From bondage to spiritual faith;
 B) From spiritual faith to great courage;
 C) From courage to liberty;
 D) From liberty to abundance;
 E) From abundance to selfishness;
 F) From selfishness to complacency;
 G) From complacency to apathy;
 H) From apathy to dependence;
 I) From dependence back into bondage
`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

  I figure we (the US) are about at stage F or G..  What say you guys ?

I thought that we were in at least the Complacency to apathy stage, beginning the apathy to dependency stage. Just look at the lack of interest, or knowledge when it comes to voting.  Its all about, I got mine, and what can I get for free from the government money tree.   

[powderman]

DIXIE DUDE. You are correct about the buying habits. I saw a woman buy 12 cases of pop and pay with foodstamps plus a bunch of chips and junk food. Some folks don't know how to shop. We shop sale ads. If it's not on sale, we don't buy it with few exceptions. We used to have a local girl with a baby who was always out of food just  a few weeks into the month. We took her shopping and showed her what was a good buy and what was not, not all things in a sale ad are good buys. I told her that she should always buy beans and flour and that if nothing else she would have biscuits and beans. She did much better after that and learned her lesson. She said that she was thankful for biscuits and beans before the month was over. Some folks just need to be taught. POWDERMAN.