Author Topic: is this normal now?  (Read 1967 times)

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Offline scotsman

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is this normal now?
« on: May 27, 2011, 04:12:14 AM »
About two weeks ago I came through a sobriety check point near where I live. I want to say upfront I believe those are wrong, stopping everyone to look for someone that might be breaking the law. However it is established by court rulings to be legal and that is not my complaint here. What I object to is the aggressive nature of the officers at the stop. This has bothered me the last few days and I wonder have others noticed this, does this happen everywhere, or have I just become a cranky old fart. When pulled up to the stop I was asked for registration, insurance, and license, and then had a roadside interrogation. Where are you headed?(home) Where have you been?(Springfield) What where you doing in Springfield?(visiting my son) Why are you coming home so late?(it was about 10:15 pm) Do you have anything illegal?(no) Do you mind if we take a look inside?(yes I mind)  At this point I was pulled over to the side where three officers with flashlights looked all over my pick up including underneath. There was nothing for them to find and in about 10 minutes I was on my way. I know no one here knows me but I am just a regular guy nothing to stand out as suspect, my truck is 5 years old but nice and in very good shape. I really believe that the officers where just overly aggressive and looking for anything to write me up on since I refused to let them search. I read in the paper that there were 400 and something cars stopped and 81 tickets written, most for no seat belt, no tail light, etc, there were no drunk drivers found. Sorry to ramble but just want to know has anyone else experienced this? Is this normal now?

Offline Old Fart

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Re: is this normal now?
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2011, 04:45:43 AM »
They have to pay for those fancy new haircuts somehow. ;)
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Offline OldSchoolRanger

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Re: is this normal now?
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2011, 04:58:31 AM »
scotsman

"Do you have anything illegal?(no) Do you mind if we take a look inside?(yes I mind)" You were legally within your rights to refuse them.  The reason the officers delayed you most likely was due to your refusal to allow them to look inside your vehicle.  As a former LEO, I can tell you they have a right to check your vehicle looking for illegal items/things in "clear view", but not inside the vehicle without permission from the owner/operator, which you refused to grant.  Their only recourse after that, was to find something illegal thru their "clear view" search, or to get a warrant, for which they had no reasonable cause. When they couldn't find anything, they had to release you.  I  commend you for sticking up for your rights, but the delay was the price you had to pay to do so.
Sometimes, you have to chalk it up to over-eagerness on the part of the younger officers who are still full of "vinegar".  When I worked checkpoints, it was usually to boost summons numbers, or for DWI arrests, every once in a while, you hit the jackpot.  We once caught a man wanted for rape, because, he didn't  have his license with him.  But you have to realize, they do have a rough job.  You usually get someone annoyed/angry at you for doing your job. 
"They have to pay for those fancy new haircuts somehow."
See what I mean?  ;)
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Offline Shu

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Re: is this normal now?
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2011, 06:18:32 AM »
Those check points do save lives. People are still stupid enough to drink and drive.
The LEO's ask questions listening to see if you are slurring your speech. They ask about criminal activity because yes some are stupid enough to admit to it.
I always refuse them to search my vehicle. I always get detained for a few extra minutes.
They always ask what I am hiding when I refuse to allow them to search. I just remain polite and still say no to a search. It may take longer to get through the check point but if you are willing to give away rights someone will be willing to take them.

Offline Spencer, Carey

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Re: is this normal now?
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2011, 06:22:52 AM »
Welcome to your local "Hall of Revenue", ahem!, Excuse me, I mean "justice".  Typical i'm sorry to say these days sir.

Offline beerbelly

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Re: is this normal now?
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2011, 06:26:08 AM »
Just thugs with a badge, giving you a hard time  just because they can! I always refuse a search and always get a bunch of crap from the thugs!

Offline Conan The Librarian

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Re: is this normal now?
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2011, 06:54:28 AM »
This puts citizens in the unfortunate position of needing to refuse a search. Never allow the vehicle search to occur. Tell the officer that you know he is just doing his job, but you cannot allow it. Then ask whether you are under arrest or are free to go. Those are the only two options they have. If it's an arrest, they need to have a reason for it.

Why?

If, for example, you are driving a used car and the previous owner left some drugs in the car that slipped into the seat cushion, you can be arrested and charged for that. Likewise if you gave your kid's friend a ride and they lost drugs in your car. You don't fully know the history of your car.

The field sobriety tests are another matter and the law is fully resolved, although there are many precedents where police departments were ordered to stop the practice. I would agree to it as a matter of expediency.

Offline yellowtail3

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Re: is this normal now?
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2011, 07:23:29 AM »
Quote
is this normal now?

Yeah, it 'normal' I suppose. It's BS, but it is what it is.

These 'checkpoints' have little to do with sobriety, I think; they're fishing expeditions. I'm in CA doing some contract work. My lic exp a few days before I left NC, didn't have time to replace - job came up very quickly - and I got pulled in one of those 'checkpoints' near Azusa. They gave me a ticket for exp. lic, and TORE MY CAR INTERIOR APART searching the car, didn't put anything back (keep in mind I'd just moved a few days earlier, it was full of stuff). Jerks. Stole some money, too. And you know... I was pleasant, answered their questions, all the things you'd think they'd like. Still jerks, pointing to the chair in their little roadside operation yelling at me to SIT DOWN NOW SIR.

Anyhow... tell them no whenever they ask to search. They will not like this at all, and you'll get a condescending lecture/inquiry about not having anything to hide.

Here's conclusion I've come to: when they start asking what you're doing and where you're going and why you're on the road at 11pm, say nothing. It is none of their &^()^&*(^&* business. Never forget that their job is to make some arrests that can be prosecuted. Don't help them. They're not your friends.
Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Offline Wyo. Coyote Hunter

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Re: is this normal now?
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2011, 07:33:01 AM »
 ;) The locals have as saying, cops are just crooks with a badge... :-\  I have known some fine officers, but in general, it seems to me cops spend time looking for easy marks..a guy with a couple beers under his belt, but the real trouble makers dopers, etc.... are ignored.. DUI's make the cops look great, but to me, they are letting the real criminals free without any hassel....I can see it every day...call one where he has to make a decision, do some real work, it is ignored... :-\

Offline guzzijohn

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Re: is this normal now?
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2011, 07:33:37 AM »
Quote
If, for example, you are driving a used car and the previous owner left some drugs in the car that slipped into the seat cushion, you can be arrested and charged for that. Likewise if you gave your kid's friend a ride and they lost drugs in your car. You don't fully know the history of your car.

How so true. Some years back at a high school I was working at one of the best and brightest students bought a used car. About a week later when the local police were doing a drug dog sweep of the student parking lot it hit on this student's car. They found weed hidden behind a door panel. Her personal record (straight A student, active in sports, band, clubs, etc.) and her lawyer kept her from being charged. After that the local police department would do a drug dog sweep on a just bought used vehicle upon request. A few years ago in Wichita at the sheriff's auction a car was sold. This car had been dog and human searched and drugs found. The person that bought the car at the auction took it to a shop the next day to have a sound system installed. The technician found more cocaine that the dog and cops had missed. The owner immediately contact the police and he was not charged. Just ask anyone that has been in the body repair business what they all find in cars.
GuzziJohn

Offline Spencer, Carey

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Re: is this normal now?
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2011, 08:40:57 AM »
Old School Ranger, and Shu,  Of course the points you make are valid, but (OF course I can only speak for myself), it isnt the questions, requests, etc. that I mind, it's the B.S. arrogant asttitude. I do fully realize that leo's must rely on the "pucker factor" to spot some offenders, but the fact that so few officers that I have encountered (Before you say, or ask, yes I have a perfectly clean background, a college education, and steady work history) in the roadblock situations in particualar, but not only, is the utter lack of respect shown to citizens as a whole. We hear about the people who scream about "paying the leo's salary with their taxes, and other statements to that effect, or legitimate questions to the officer involved about their role as a public servant, (That they most certainly are, usually during a mentally insulting joke, or account about said individual) but normally never hear about the unethical  treatment that said citizen/suspect endured that provoked the response in the first place. They can harass/accost us without provocation, and use our anger, even if it is fully justified, as an excuse to circumvent our rights and do whatever they want to. Even if we are found innocent in open court (Which usually requires an expensive attorney that present our case no more effectivly than we could have done ourselves) we are still liable for exorbitant "court costs"! The "Hall of Revenue" is a MUCH more accurate description of the place these days.

Offline Spencer, Carey

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Re: is this normal now?
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2011, 09:00:08 AM »
Sorry about the few grammatical errors. This topic makes my blood boil for a few reasons. Most prevalant was when one of Roxville N.C.'s "finest" took great pleasure shining his mag-lite into my two month old son's face for 4 minutes. Yes, I timed it on the dash clock. All the while milling around my little Hona Accord talking smack and making accusations and threats. Of course I was clean and 100% legal, and I believe that was what made them the maddest. They knew I couldnt afford a lawyer. Still attending school. Put $600 worth of textbooks on the hood in the rain. Ruined the lot of them. The D.A. that I contacted about them the next day was just as arrogant and rude. If I was out in the rain at night I may be a little annoyed also, but the people in those positions should be held to a higher standard don't you think? Wish I could say that was the only bad experience i've had with the l.e.o.'s in N.C. but sadly, not.     

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: is this normal now?
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2011, 09:24:21 AM »
Interesting topic.  Got me to look up a little case law to make sure my thoughts were still correct.  Of course they were...  8)  From my point of view anyway.   ;D

I don't like road blocks that are an excuse for a "witch hunt" at the expense of citizens.   :(

Richard
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Offline Spencer, Carey

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Re: is this normal now?
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2011, 09:49:17 AM »
RoxBORO ya'll. CDL driver now. Get my cities mixed up sometimes, but the details of the incident remain the same. In fact switched my major from criminal justice to business administration because of that. The "Wrong Crowd" sometimes isnt who you might expect them to be. Food for thought.

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: is this normal now?
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2011, 02:18:01 PM »
Here, if you tell them no to a search they'll detain you untill a canine unit arives. They can't search without your consent but your telling them no justifies, the way they see it, being detained. Then if the dog hits on anything they have probable cause for a search. My wife and I use to be sign painters and we stopped in town to give a quote on a new buiseness that wanted their windows done. While my truck was parked I noticed the Highway Patrol cruise by, slow down and look it over, 6 times in 30 minutes. I told my wife I didn't know what was going on but that I bet we'd get stopped either before leaving town or shortly after. Sure enough, about a mile out, here came the troopers with red lights flashing. The excuse for stopping me? They said I was weaving! Sure, and they spotted that from around several curves and a mile away! I knew I wasn't and that it was a farce. Heck, ya ever see them do a Felony Stop for weaving? One car sped around me and blocked the road ahead, one on my tail and one about 50 yards behind blocking the road! Smartass I am I mentioned they must take weaving pretty dang seriously! The officer asked to search my truck and I said sure, why not? Behind the seat, under a ton of junk, were two old fixed blade knives. I used them to dig for arrowheads. The blades were as dull as the spines and the tips were as rounded as a nickle. The only way you could hurt someone with one would have been to hit them with the handles. He said they were concealed weapons easily reached, even though I'd have had to stop the truck, put it in park, all three of us, myself, my wife and daughter, got out, raised the seat, and dug through crap to find them. He was going to bust me for concealed weapons simply because there was nothing else they could find! After all, they'd gone through considerable trouble to stop me!  ::) I was recovering from a heart attack and he gave me crap because, to him, I apeared nervous. I told him well duh! Your trying to bust me on an obvious trumped up charge and you're asking why I appear nervous? He didn't apreciate that. They got a bit nervous themselve's when they looked through our address book of customers and there was the mayor,s name, the State Treasurer's name, County Commisioner's name, ect. Well, luckily a Captain showed up and I had met him before and did him a favour. A neighbor had gone off the deep end and run off into the woods. The Captain was about to drive down a road he would not have made it very far in his brand new cruiser and I stopped him from a big mistake.  I offered to help to find the guy and took the Captain in my truck as his cruiser would never have made it without getting bogged down in mud. We found the guy and the Captain had been quite greatful. When he saw what was going on he scolded the sargeant who had been busting my chops and told him to let me go. Had he not arived I might still be sitting behind bars! What was the real reason they stopped me? They suspected the new buiseness of selling drugs. A rumour that started when the owner caught some of the local kids breaking into his new buiseness and kicked a few butts! But the kids were of families with promenent names, anyone ever lived in a small town knows what I mean,  so to discredit the buiseness owner the rumours began. Lucky me to find out the hard way because he came to us for signs!

Offline Ron/Pa.

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Re: is this normal now?
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2011, 02:25:45 PM »
  Dang shame when you fear the Police instead of respecting them.....

Offline Mohawk

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Re: is this normal now?
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2011, 03:51:09 PM »
  Some folks will never understand law enforcement until the officer is at their door to deliver bad news.  :(   

Offline Hooker

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Re: is this normal now?
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2011, 04:28:20 PM »
I understand it just fine.
I expect the officer to be professional regardless of whether he has had a bad day or his wife is sleeping with the neighbor.
I don't care and it is not an excuse for rude actions.
Retaliatory school boy behavior against someone for standing firm with in their rights is proof they have no business being a LEO.

Pat 
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Offline Spencer, Carey

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Re: is this normal now?
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2011, 05:30:36 PM »
Thanx fpr the support guys. They dont have the right to hold you for an unreasonable ammount of time either, like the time it takes to call in a K9 unit from who knows where when they dont have any more probable cause than your refusal to let them search, but trying to tell them that is about the same as anything else. Ive met a few l.e.o.'s who were the salt of the earth. Really great honorable men, AND women, unfortunately MOST have NOT been. Sad  but true.

Offline The Hermit

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Re: is this normal now?
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2011, 05:59:52 PM »
yellowtail3, this is probably the first time I agree with you 100%. Back in the 50's,60's, you could pretty much trust any police officer you came across. Our front door took a skeleton key to open, if you could find it. It was never locked.
Today, you can't trust the cops, politicians, priest, judges, and most lawyers, Atlaw excluded. I have seen the corruption with my own eyes. If they need too, the evidence magically appears.
Is this normal now? It should never be normal in the USA.  TSA, grab my crotch and see what that gets you.

The Hermit.

Offline magooch

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Re: is this normal now?
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2011, 05:46:04 AM »
My thought is that especially now days, there is more than enough for police to do than to give honest citizens a hard time.  If there is a demonstrable, imminent problem, sometimes a road block stop might be justified, but they should be extremely rare and never routine.  This is either a free country, or not.  One of the costs of freedom is that there will always be perps roaming free among us.  I'm willing to pay that cost, because it's an absolute sure thing that our freedom and liberty will vanish in a flash when authority is given priority over freedom.

I have one little story that shows how a general order to enforce a law can get out of control.  Many years ago, our state instituted a special operators endorsement to ride motorcycles.  Shortly after the law went into effect, the local, state and county cops were told to start an intensive enforcement of the law. 

I have ridden motorcycles since I was 12 years old, so I complied with the law and got my endorsement.  I set off on a ride to a city that is about 50 miles away.  Before I was 4 miles into my ride I was stopped three times and checked to see if I had the endorsement.  The last cop to stop me was a state patrol and I told him at this rate it would take me all day to get where I was going.  He said, why is that?  I told him he was the third cop to stop me in the last couple of miles.  He turned out to be a good guy and called ahead and apparently told all the rest of the cops to leave me alone.  That never happened again and I think that incident may have caused their operation to be called off.
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Offline yellowtail3

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Re: is this normal now?
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2011, 06:35:38 AM »
  Some folks will never understand law enforcement until the officer is at their door to deliver bad news.  :(   

Really? What is there to understand, that would be made clear by the kind of event you have in mind? What would those benighted folks learn about law enforcement? Spell it out?

Anyone notice somehow 'drugs' is at the root of lots of LEO misbehavior? That much of the crap we're expected to put up with stems from the misbegotten and disastrous War on (some) Drugs?

Who benefits? LEO, lawyers, court hanger-ons, prisons, the state, and smugglers. Who loses? citizens who value their freedoms. End it.


Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Offline 223fan

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Re: is this normal now?
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2011, 07:41:47 AM »
I respect the law officers here and for the  most part they are proffesional,but I have seen  some of W.V.'s finest flat out lie to cover there butts because they new they were in the wrong and got caught.
XLI the one to go with.

Offline gypsyman

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Re: is this normal now?
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2011, 08:03:53 AM »
I don't think it's the norm. What your reading about is the exception. What with the 10's of thousands of LE on duty, your bound to see it happen. We had one on our local police force a couple years ago. He basically was a stalker to his ex-girlfriend. Gave anybody she dated a hard time, plus went overboard on his regular duty's. Problem is, his mother was mayor of our city at the time, so he got a pass for awhile. Just before she got voted out, he got suspended, and finally got kicked off the force. I just hope his credentials got tainted, and he didn't get another job on a different force somewhere else. gypsyman
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Offline Lost Farmboy

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Re: is this normal now?
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2011, 01:53:08 PM »
Yes, it's normal!  I got the same treatment when I was stopped for going too slow.  ( 55 in a 65)  I was driving home from a turkey hunting trip and was guilty of the crime of wearing camouflage.  He took my license, insurance and registration.  15 minutes later he tells me to get out of the car.  He makes me stand behind my car and ask a bunch of questions about stuff in my car.  His partner is standing at 10 o clock with her hand on her gun the whole time.

What's in that 5 gal bottle on the back seat?  Spring water.  Are you sure it's nothing illegal?  Yes, I filled it at the spring myself.  Are you sure it's nothing illegal?  Yes it's water. 

What is that thing next to it?  It says REMINGTON on it!  My backpack.  What is in it?  Hunting stuff, I was hunting.  Do you have any weapons?  Yes, I was hunting.  What were you hunting for?  Turkeys.  Is turkey season open?  Yes.  Are you sure?  Yes, turkey season is open.  Where are you weapons?  My shotgun is in my the trunk.  Do you have any weapons on you now?  No the shotgun is in the trunk.  Are you sure?  Yes.  Yes what?  Yes your sure or yes you have weapons on you?  Yes I'm sure the shotgun is in the trunk. 

What's in the bag next to the backpack.  Mushrooms.  MUSHROOMS,  are they illegal mushrooms?  No they are morels.  What are morels?  There mushrooms.  Are you sure their legal?  Yes.  How do you know?  You know some mushrooms are illegal don't you.  Yes, I only pick morels because they are the only ones I know are safe.  You are sure they are legal.  Yes.  Your sure.  Yes.

Then after another long interrogation about weapons he let me go.
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Offline Spencer, Carey

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Re: is this normal now?
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2011, 02:45:10 PM »
Yup. A conscious effort to be a$#holes.

Offline hillbill

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Re: is this normal now?
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2011, 02:53:29 PM »
Yes, it's normal!  I got the same treatment when I was stopped for going too slow.  ( 55 in a 65)  I was driving home from a turkey hunting trip and was guilty of the crime of wearing camouflage.  He took my license, insurance and registration.  15 minutes later he tells me to get out of the car.  He makes me stand behind my car and ask a bunch of questions about stuff in my car.  His partner is standing at 10 o clock with her hand on her gun the whole time.

What's in that 5 gal bottle on the back seat?  Spring water.  Are you sure it's nothing illegal?  Yes, I filled it at the spring myself.  Are you sure it's nothing illegal?  Yes it's water. 

What is that thing next to it?  It says REMINGTON on it!  My backpack.  What is in it?  Hunting stuff, I was hunting.  Do you have any weapons?  Yes, I was hunting.  What were you hunting for?  Turkeys.  Is turkey season open?  Yes.  Are you sure?  Yes, turkey season is open.  Where are you weapons?  My shotgun is in my the trunk.  Do you have any weapons on you now?  No the shotgun is in the trunk.  Are you sure?  Yes.  Yes what?  Yes your sure or yes you have weapons on you?  Yes I'm sure the shotgun is in the trunk. 

What's in the bag next to the backpack.  Mushrooms.  MUSHROOMS,  are they illegal mushrooms?  No they are morels.  What are morels?  There mushrooms.  Are you sure their legal?  Yes.  How do you know?  You know some mushrooms are illegal don't you.  Yes, I only pick morels because they are the only ones I know are safe.  You are sure they are legal.  Yes.  Your sure.  Yes.

Then after another long interrogation about weapons he let me go.
thank yu for posting, got a good laugh after a really bad day.glad yur not posting from the graybar hotel!

Offline Mikey

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Re: is this normal now?
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2011, 03:18:37 PM »
Lost Farmboy:  Sorry buddy but you had me rollin'.  I know what a pita some of these situations can be but that sounded like a old episode of Abbott and Costello.  I have to remember that one in case I get stopped.  LOL.

Offline scotsman

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Re: is this normal now?
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2011, 03:53:25 PM »
I came back to read some of the replies to my original post, seems that quite a few have experienced something similar. While that may not make it 'normal' it does seem to be pretty wide spread.  Some of the replies expressed better than I did what offended me most, I was shown no respect. I knew it was my right to refuse a search of my truck, why then is it something I must 'pay for', by 'special attention' and further delay? Those officers on the side of the road don't make the laws, they don't get to choose their assignments, and it IS a tough job. But it seems just a little more respect shown to citizens would go a long way.

Offline gomerdog

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Re: is this normal now?
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2011, 04:02:20 PM »
Maybe I am a little niave. I live in a small town in Wyoming. We don't have roadblocks in town, but I have heard the Highway Patrol has them occasionally on holiday weekends. For good reason...lots of people out their drinking and driving. Been out at the lake, over in the next town at a family barbeque having one too many, or just plain drinking at home, ran out of booze and get in the car for more...although they've had more than enough already. I have lived in this state and Nevada all of my 52 years and have never had an unpleasant experience with a LEO, although I've talked with others who have, but those issues probably could have been avoided had alcohol not been involved.

In my neighborhood, I have a FBI agent next door, a sherrif's deputy 5 houses down the block and a federal marshal two streets to the west of me. They seem to be regular folks...married, have a few kids, coach Little League or the local AAU wrestling team, volunteer in the schools, buy my daughter's Girl Scout cookies, etc. When I've observed them on the job, they seem more interesting in serving and protecting than throwing their weight around.

Guess I'm lucky.

I sympathize with those who have related unpleasent experiences.

"Endeavor to persevere..." Chief Dan George from The Outlaw Josie Wales