1803 Harpers Ferry Kits?

[calinb]

I've fallen in love with the 1803 Harper's Ferry rifle. Jedediah Starr has a kit and also Track of the Wolf.  The TOTW kit is close in price to the Jediediah Starr, as I recall.   Then there's the  Rifle Shoppe kit and it is probably superior, but it's considerably more expensive.  Yeah, I know.  I'm probably better off buying a Jim Chambers kit for my first flintlock, but he doesn't have anything that grabs me like an 1803 HF.  The Jim Chambers English Gentleman's Sporting Rifle does get pretty close in desirability, however.

Does anyone have any experience or thoughts about these kits?  I assume that I'm better off putting the labor into a kit instead of just buying a EuroArms 1803 Harper's Ferry.

Thanks for any input into my decision.

-Cal

[Swampman]

Another that you might like.

http://www.donstith.com/lewis___clark.html

[coyotejoe]

Yes, I think you will be way ahead with the kit, there are a lot of problems with locks of the Italian version. I don't know about the other but Track's kit is pretty well inletted and looks really easy to finish. I've always thought the 1803 was the best looking military rifle of all time and it whould make a very good hunting rifle. Though a bit heavy for my taste it's still not so heavy as most of the more authentic Hawken types.

[calinb]

Another that you might like.
http://www.donstith.com/lewis___clark.html

Wow--that's another beauty!  An 1803 with a 42" barrel would be quite a conversation piece.  The maple is quite nice too!  I'd just need to figure out where I could get a 40 ga. round ball mold!

SPECIFICATIONS:
Per instructions of Secretary of War Henry Knox in 1792, and as modified by Meriwether Lewis in 1803.

Barrel three feet six inches in length, to carry Ball 40 to the pound (.49 caliber.)
Box release on the top of the stock through the buttplate.
Stock of seasoned Maple. Brass mounted.
Lock (not included)
Sling swivels suitable for carrying the military pattern sling available to Lewis at the arsenal in Philadelphia.

<snip>
I've always thought the 1803 was the best looking military rifle of all time and it whould make a very good hunting rifle. Though a bit heavy for my taste it's still not so heavy as most of the more authentic Hawken types.

My thoughts too!  I'd even be crazy enough to hunt with a 42" barreled Lewis "Corps of Discovery" variant.

Thanks for the inputs and I'm still deciding so any other posts and opinions are most appreciated.

-Cal

[calinb]

Hmmm--now I'm wondering about the right round ball for the Lewis rifle: Barrel three feet six inches in length, to carry Ball 40 to the pound (.49 caliber.)

Also, from the TOTW:

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/gunKit.aspx?catId=13&subId=77&styleId=286&partNum=KIT-US-1792-CONTRACT-RIFLE

The rifle was to have these specifications:
42" rifled barrel bored 40 balls to the pound (about .490")

This calculator says a 40 ga round ball (175 grains) is .488 in diameter--very close to the .490 discussed, but Meriwether Lewis said the bore should "carry" a 40 ga ball.  That means the bore should be somewhere around .495.  Lee precision makes a .490 mold.

Guess I should phone Don Stith at St. Louis Plains Rifle Company, if I decide to go that route.

-Cal

[calinb]

Oops--here's the calculator I used:

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/roundball.htm?v1=.488&v2=2876.1

[Swampman]

Bores and molds were not very exact in those days.  I'd go smaller and use a thicker patch.

[keith44]

Bores and molds were not very exact in those days.  I'd go smaller and use a thicker patch.

While anything is worth trying once, and the thicker patch smaller ball would help keep pressures low, it has been my experience that the thinner patch with a close fitted ball gives best accuracy. (at least in my three).

I think the phrase...
 "Per instructions of Secretary of War Henry Knox in 1792, and as modified by Meriwether Lewis in 1803.

Barrel three feet six inches in length, to carry Ball 40 to the pound (.49 caliber.)..."

places emphasis on the ball size and intends the rifle to be bored in accordance with the dimentions required to fire or "carry" that .488 dia ball.  In other words what we would today call a fifty cal.

[calinb]

Can you advise me about how to go smaller than a .490 ball without going a LOT smaller, Swampman?  I have a Lee .535 mold so that tends to push me in the direction of a .54 cal 1803 Harpers Ferry rather than the .49 cal Lewis rifle.  .490 molds are available from many suppliers but, if the Lewis rifle needs something smaller than .490, a mold could be difficult to find.  I wonder if anyone can make a custom mold for it.

<snip>
places emphasis on the ball size and intends the rifle to be bored in accordance with the dimentions required to fire or "carry" that .488 dia ball.  In other words what we would today call a fifty cal.

That's kind of what I was thinking, Keith.  Guess I'd better make a phone inquiry before I make a decision.

I prefer the beauty and even the history of the Lewis rifle, but the 1803 Harpers Ferry would make for a better big game (elk) hunting rifle I think, given that it has a shorter barrel and larger .54 caliber than the Lewis rifle.  We have controlled muzzleloader hunts here in Oregon (lead-only, open sights, and open ignition required) .  Though, I've not hunted elk with a muzzleloader, I've taken white tail with an inline and I'd like to try going "primitive" on an elk hunt

Thanks again,

-Cal

[keith44]

Hey Cal,

The Harpers Ferry is probably the better choice.  .54 always gets my vote over the .45's and 50's, even for whitetails and coyotes.  There is just something about that extra mass in the larger roundball that seems like magic 

Keith

[Swampman]

They didn't have or use short starters so the frequently use much smaller balls.  I have no use for .495s or .535s in modern muzzleloaders.

[calinb]

I found this Rifle Shoppe 1803 Harpers Ferry parts set on Clay Smith's site:

http://www.claysmithguns.com/Harpers_Ferry_Kit.htm

So I pushed the "go" button.

Clay says the parts set is complete and in perfect condition.  It seems like a good deal for someone who's got their eye on an 1803, given the price discount and no need to wait for interminable delays from The Rifle Shoppe.

I think I prefer the Lewis rifle, except for my desire to hunt with it too.  Hunting tips the decision to the shorter .33"  54 cal barrel instead of the 42" Lewis 49/50 cal or whatever it should be called.

I probably won't get around to the project for a while, but I'm looking forward to it and it'll feel good to have all the parts on hand.

Thanks for all the help in making my decision.  Once I get the project underway, I'll post some pics, but I have a few other gun projects to finish first.

-Cal

[keith44]

A fine choice there Cal.  That stock will be beautiful when finished.  Do you plan to blue the barrel or brown it? (after all this is gonna be a self built custom )

[Swampman]

That should be real nice.

[calinb]

A fine choice there Cal.  That stock will be beautiful when finished.  Do you plan to blue the barrel or brown it? (after all this is gonna be a self built custom )

Thanks, Keith!  I don't know yet.   From the pictures I've seen, it doesn't look like these early arms were blued so should I brown it?  I've only done hot blueing with my own home brew but I'm sure I can learn to brown metal too. I figured I'd buy the book, The Southern Arsenal - Harper's Ferry by Dr. James B. Whisker.   I'd like to build it as authentically as possible.  I'm even thinking I might forgo a Chambers touch hole liner, though it might be worthwhile for improved ignition reliability on a hunt. 

I'm a newbie to historic arms and custom muzzleloaders, though I've undertaken many custom gun projects.  Most of them have been metal projects, including milling receivers from raw forgings.  I've also built a metal airplane.  I don't have much experience with wood, but Clay told me the wood won't need much attention (relatively speaking, I'm sure) and it seems like stocks mostly require a lot of slow work with hand tools.  I'll have plenty of time to study the history and art in the evening during the next few months.  This might be a winter project.

-Cal

 

[calinb]

Hmm--seems that I might have to learn how to make a historic varnish too!  In my TOTW catalog, it says that " in The Rifle Shoppe Catalog, Jesse Melot reports that he has examined 14 rifle which retain their original rifling.  All have 1 turn in 49" twist, .018 to .021" round bottom grooves, .078" to .085" width."  "Most original 1803 rifles show evidence of a brown varnish, not the ordinary linseed oil, as might be expected during this era."

On the Rifle Shoppe site, it says that they will put the original proof marks on their 1803 barrels, if they are sent back to them.  Hopefully, Jesse will still make good on that deal!  This is going to be a fun project!

-Cal

[keith44]

Sounds like a blast.  Since you want historically correct, better read up from the experts.  Me, I'd try a real dark rust blue, with case color hardening on the lock plate and trigger bow.  But that would not likely be correct.

[Co. Batguano]

How many grooves in the reproduction barrel rifling?  I think the originals were 7 groove weren't they?  ANd the shape of 18th century rifling is different than modern isn't it?

[Rock Home Isle]

Another that you might like.

http://www.donstith.com/lewis___clark.html

I just checked out this site and the Hawken Squirrel Rifle just totally caught my eye....you would not believe how that rifle made an impression. I just spent the last 40 minutes at Track of the Wolf looking at locks and a few other parts. WOW what an eye catching firearm. 

[keith44]

Make mine a tapered barrel, .45 cal, with hooked breech and long bar trigger 

[calinb]

I'll have to look again for the numbers but the the Rifle Shoppe 1803 HF barrel actually has slower twist rifling than the original barrels, which were really too fast to optimally launch a round ball.  The replica also has square grooves whereas round bottom grooves were typical of the day, I think.