Bighorn 209 & 25acp ignition

[Gmag]

Has anyone tried Bighorn 209 powder with the 25 acp breech plug convertion?  I have one and was wondering if there is enough flame from a small pistol primer to ignite it.

[Forestclimber]

I would bet there is.   I use #11 percussion caps with 2F powder in mine.  One time I was in a pouring rain and it went off ok.

[ronlaughlin]

It has been my experience to have no fire when trying to use small pistol primer to ignite BH209.  Using 25acp brass to carry small rifle magnum primer resulted in hang fire trying to ignite BH209.  What i then did was utilize 223 brass to carry the primer.  Modifying 223 brass to use large rifle magnum primer is what i had to do to get reliable ignition of BH209.  Using small rifle magnum primer in 223 brass resulted in hang fire trying to ignite BH; i needed to use the large rifle magnum primer to have success.

[sabotloader]

Has anyone tried Bighorn 209 powder with the 25 acp breech plug convertion?  I have one and was wondering if there is enough flame from a small pistol primer to ignite it.

It has been my experiance that using a small rifle primer may not always ignite BH the way you would like it to.  I have had very good success with a SR Mag primer in an Omega plug.

The other problem you face is that the Big Horn is a plunger gun... the blowback from the ignition of the powder may spit the 25acp cartridge back out of the breech plug since there is nothing to hold it in...

[epanzella]

The manufacturer reccommends unsing ONLY full strength shotgun primers. No caps, ML 209's, pistol primers  or rifle primers.

[MLN1963]

The manufacturer reccommends unsing ONLY full strength shotgun primers. No caps, ML 209's, pistol primers  or rifle primers.

Sorry for digging up an old post but I have a question.



Shotgun primers are" hotter" than rifle or magnum rifle primers? Is there an energy rating or some type of method used to test primers for heat/spark/flame?

[epanzella]

The manufacturer reccommends unsing ONLY full strength shotgun primers. No caps, ML 209's, pistol primers  or rifle primers.

Sorry for digging up an old post but I have a question.



Shotgun primers are" hotter" than rifle or magnum rifle primers? Is there an energy rating or some type of method used to test primers for heat/spark/flame?

I don't know if shotgun primers are "hotter" than rifle primers, but they have a larger volume of flame, probably because of the large volume of a shotgun shell.

[MLN1963]

The manufacturer reccommends unsing ONLY full strength shotgun primers. No caps, ML 209's, pistol primers  or rifle primers.

Sorry for digging up an old post but I have a question.



Shotgun primers are" hotter" than rifle or magnum rifle primers? Is there an energy rating or some type of method used to test primers for heat/spark/flame?

I don't know if shotgun primers are "hotter" than rifle primers, but they have a larger volume of flame, probably because of the large volume of a shotgun shell.

That is the part that I don't follow. There size of the flash hole is approx. .030" so ho much more can really get through?

[ronlaughlin]

I don't know if shotgun primers are "hotter" than rifle primers, but they have a larger volume of flame, probably because of the large volume of a shotgun shell.

That is the part that I don't follow. There size of the flash hole is approx. .030" so ho much more can really get through?

Apparently enough flame to reliably ignite BH209.  Actually, my rifles all  reliably ignite BH, using breech plugs with 0.028" flash hole .  Shotgun primers are required.  Rifle and pistol primers are not reliable for igniting BH in my rifles.

[epanzella]

The manufacturer reccommends unsing ONLY full strength shotgun primers. No caps, ML 209's, pistol primers  or rifle primers.

Sorry for digging up an old post but I have a question.



Shotgun primers are" hotter" than rifle or magnum rifle primers? Is there an energy rating or some type of method used to test primers for heat/spark/flame?

I don't know if shotgun primers are "hotter" than rifle primers, but they have a larger volume of flame, probably because of the large volume of a shotgun shell.

That is the part that I don't follow. There size of the flash hole is approx. .030" so ho much more can really get through?

My flash hole is drilled to .035 but, be that as it may, a larger volume of hot gas thru a constant size hole means a flame with more velocity and longer duration. Shoot a W209 primer at nite and you can see flame come out of the muzzle. The seat of my pants tell me that the longer flame duration transfers more heat to a powder that's harder to light than black or traditional black substitutes. I do know one thing for sure, even below 20 degrees,  I get instant ignition indistinguishable from a centerfire rifle.

[MLN1963]

My flash hole is drilled to .035 but, be that as it may, a larger volume of hot gas thru a constant size hole means a flame with more velocity and longer duration. Shoot a W209 primer at nite and you can see flame come out of the muzzle. The seat of my pants tell me that the longer flame duration transfers more heat to a powder that's harder to light than black or traditional black substitutes. I do know one thing for sure, even below 20 degrees,  I get instant ignition indistinguishable from a centerfire rifle.

Wow, flames shooting 28 inches from a shotgun primer? I wasn't expecting that!


Can you get tack driving accuracy with this combo? I ask only because everything I see is promoting less violent, charge disrupting primers for improved accuracy. E.G 25 ACP conversions and Fiocchi primers

[epanzella]

My flash hole is drilled to .035 but, be that as it may, a larger volume of hot gas thru a constant size hole means a flame with more velocity and longer duration. Shoot a W209 primer at nite and you can see flame come out of the muzzle. The seat of my pants tell me that the longer flame duration transfers more heat to a powder that's harder to light than black or traditional black substitutes. I do know one thing for sure, even below 20 degrees,  I get instant ignition indistinguishable from a centerfire rifle.

Wow, flames shooting 28 inches from a shotgun primer? I wasn't expecting that!


Can you get tack driving accuracy with this combo? I ask only because everything I see is promoting less violent, charge disrupting primers for improved accuracy. E.G 25 ACP conversions and Fiocchi primers

I was surprised to see a flash clear my muzzle as well. One morning I was shooting a W209 to clear my flash hole at zero-dark-30 and out came the flash. I have a TC Encore 209x50 with 20 inch barrel. My load is 100 gr BH209, W209 primer, MMP orange sabot, 325 Hornady Leverevolution flextip. MV = 1700(+ a few). This load groups an inch @ 100 yds and 3 inches @ 200 yds. When sighted in 1 1/2 inches high @ 100 yds, it's 8-10 inches low @ 200 yds. Before developing this BH209 load, my gun used to group 3 inches @ 100 yds if I did a full blown cleaning between shots (777 powder). Without cleaning it would put two shots into 3 inches then the third shot would usually open it up to 5-6 inches (777 powder). Pyrodex pellets (3x50) grouped 5-6 inches @ 100 yds. In all fairness, only the BH209 has seen the Leverevolution bullets as I didn't know you could use .458 bullets (MMP orange sabot) in a .50 until I read it in a Randy Wakeman piece. All my loads with 777 and Pyrodex used 300 grain Hornady XTP .452 bullets with MMP black sabots. That said, I can't be certain it was just the BH209 that made the difference in accuracy but I do know I that my ignition is faster than it ever was and cleaning is a breeze.   

[ronlaughlin]

[size=78%]My flash hole is drilled to .035 but, be that as it may, a larger volume of hot gas thru a constant size hole means a flame with more velocity and longer duration. Shoot a W209 primer at nite and you can see flame come out of the muzzle. The seat of my pants tell me that the longer flame duration transfers more heat to a powder that's harder to light than black or traditional black substitutes. I do know one thing for sure, even below 20 degrees,  I get instant ignition indistinguishable from a centerfire rifle.[/size]

As mentioned before, the flash hole in the breech plugs used in my rifle are always 0.028" until they become  larger, because of the erosion from the shooting.  My rifles have been tested extensively for reliable ignition of BH209 powder in sub-zero weather.  This testing has proven to me that a 0.035" flash hole is not necessary.


One definite disadvantage of the 0.035" flash hole is a simple thing.  When one drill the flash hole larger, one just then aged their breech plug a few hundred shots, and what was a new plug, is now hundreds of shots old.




The other day, i shot my rifle through a chronograph, so to compare speeds using two different size flash hole.  The flash hole size was changed between each shot.  How this was done is by removing the breech plug, and switching vent liner with the different size flash hole.  Then the next day i did the same test again.  The following two charts show the result of these shooting. 










One can see the differences in speeds is negligible i.e. flash hole size isn't critical in determining how the powder ignite.
It seems the chronograph is telling us the smaller flash hole allows as much flame to reach the powder as the larger flash hole.   Then the question becomes, how does the smaller flash hole transfer as much heat to the powder as the larger flash hole.  The answer is provided by Bernoulli' Principle which is demonstated in the following link.


http://mitchellscience.com/bernoulli_principle_animation




The load shot through the clock was 270g Deep Curl, 110g BH209, green harvester sabot, and STS primer.  Rifle was an Accura V2; the QRBP allowed for easily removal, and re-install with different vent liner.  The chronograph was placed about 15 yard out; wasn't in exactly the same place on the two different days.

[epanzella]

[size=78%]My flash hole is drilled to .035 but, be that as it may, a larger volume of hot gas thru a constant size hole means a flame with more velocity and longer duration. Shoot a W209 primer at nite and you can see flame come out of the muzzle. The seat of my pants tell me that the longer flame duration transfers more heat to a powder that's harder to light than black or traditional black substitutes. I do know one thing for sure, even below 20 degrees,  I get instant ignition indistinguishable from a centerfire rifle.[/size]

As mentioned before, the flash hole in the breech plugs used in my rifle are always 0.028" until they become  larger, because of the erosion from the shooting.  My rifles have been tested extensively for reliable ignition of BH209 powder in sub-zero weather.  This testing has proven to me that a 0.035" flash hole is not necessary.


One definite disadvantage of the 0.035" flash hole is a simple thing.  When one drill the flash hole larger, one just then aged their breech plug a few hundred shots, and what was a new plug, is now hundreds of shots old.




The other day, i shot my rifle through a chronograph, so to compare speeds using two different size flash hole.  The flash hole size was changed between each shot.  How this was done is by removing the breech plug, and switching vent liner with the different size flash hole.  Then the next day i did the same test again.  The following two charts show the result of these shooting. 










One can see the differences in speeds is negligible i.e. flash hole size isn't critical in determining how the powder ignite.
It seems the chronograph is telling us the smaller flash hole allows as much flame to reach the powder as the larger flash hole.   Then the question becomes, how does the smaller flash hole transfer as much heat to the powder as the larger flash hole.  The answer is provided by Bernoulli' Principle which is demonstated in the following link.


http://mitchellscience.com/bernoulli_principle_animation




The load shot through the clock was 270g Deep Curl, 110g BH209, green harvester sabot, and STS primer.  Rifle was an Accura V2; the QRBP allowed for easily removal, and re-install with different vent liner.  The chronograph was placed about 15 yard out; wasn't in exactly the same place on the two different days.

I don't really get the correllation you're making between velocity and slow ignition. My Encore was routinely getting 1/4 second hangfires with Blackhorn 209 when the temp dropped below 20 degrees. Drilling my plug to .035 fixed that and gave me instant ignition indistinguishable from a centerfire rifle. My MV with a 325 grain Leverevolution Flextip was 1700-1725 before and after drilling. The size of the flash hole made no difference to anything except ignition reliability.

[ronlaughlin]

My intent was to show that the smaller flash hole produced virtually the same speeds as the larger flash hole. To me this indicates the powder burn was the same, regardless of flash hole size.  To me this indicate that the heat transferred through the flash hole was virtually the same, regardless of diameter. 


Another thing that i wished to address, is drilling out the flash hole to 0.035" from the factory size of 0.029" essentially takes a brand new breech plug, and turns it into a breech plug with hundreds of shots through it.  Drilling the flash hole to 0.035" virtually makes a brand new breech plug old and worn out.


It could very well be that i am incorrect, but i believe the breech plug in your rifle is very nearly the same as the Triumph breech plug.  Following is what can be done to a Triumph plug, to cure a problem with ignition delay.









First thing was to drill all the way through the plug with a 5/32" drill.  Then the chamber on the powder end was drilled some deeper with a 5/16" drill, and about 7 threads were made with a 10-32 tap, after the taper of the hole is made steeper using an 82 degree countersink.  This allows for the 'vent liner' to be used to replace the flash hole.  The vent liner is simply a 3/8" long 10-32 cap screw with a 0.028" hole drilled through it.



















Here is a photo of the modified plug next to the factory Triumph plug.















The modified plug has never produced a delay in sub-zero weather using a vent liner with a 0.028" flash hole, and when the flash hole in the vent liner wears so it is larger than 0.035", it can simply be replaced with another vent liner.  For some reason, it seems that making the 'powder chamber' a little deeper cures the ignition delay.


This just illustrates another way to cope with ignition issues whilst using BH209 powder.

[epanzella]

My intent was to show that the smaller flash hole produced virtually the same speeds as the larger flash hole. To me this indicates the powder burn was the same, regardless of flash hole size.  To me this indicate that the heat transferred through the flash hole was virtually the same, regardless of diameter. 


Another thing that i wished to address, is drilling out the flash hole to 0.035" from the factory size of 0.029" essentially takes a brand new breech plug, and turns it into a breech plug with hundreds of shots through it.  Drilling the flash hole to 0.035" virtually makes a brand new breech plug old and worn out.


It could very well be that i am incorrect, but i believe the breech plug in your rifle is very nearly the same as the Triumph breech plug.  Following is what can be done to a Triumph plug, to cure a problem with ignition delay.









First thing was to drill all the way through the plug with a 5/32" drill.  Then the chamber on the powder end was drilled some deeper with a 5/16" drill, and about 7 threads were made with a 10-32 tap, after the taper of the hole is made steeper using an 82 degree countersink.  This allows for the 'vent liner' to be used to replace the flash hole.  The vent liner is simply a 3/8" long 10-32 cap screw with a 0.028" hole drilled through it.



















Here is a photo of the modified plug next to the factory Triumph plug.















The modified plug has never produced a delay in sub-zero weather using a vent liner with a 0.028" flash hole, and when the flash hole in the vent liner wears so it is larger than 0.035", it can simply be replaced with another vent liner.  For some reason, it seems that making the 'powder chamber' a little deeper cures the ignition delay.


This just illustrates another way to cope with ignition issues whilst using BH209 powder.

Ron,
Your breechplug looks quite a bit different than mine. I think my whole plug is shorter than just the threaded portion of yours. I'm glad you found a solution to your hang fire problem and I'm even gladder I found a solution to mine. As to my breechplug being worn out, my Encore groups 3 inches @ 200 yards with zero blowby, so I guess I can highly reccommend a worn out breechplug. 
Ed

[ronlaughlin]

Oops, wrong plug.  It was an incorrect assumption on my part.  I assume you are using the plug shown here.
















The dimensions of the new CVA plug made for shooting BH209 are virtually the same as the dimensions of the TC plug shown here.  The flash hole is the same; 0.029".  The flame channel diameter the same; 1/8".  The length of the flame channel is near the same in the two plug.  My point is the CVA plug designed specifically  to ignite BH209 is dimensionally the same as the pictured plug.  I, myself, use this plug in my Omega(s).  It has never failed to ignite BH without delay in just about every imaginable condition.


Your plug is working good for you.  That is good!  It is good when we shooters are happy.  However, your plug is hundreds of shots older than an unaltered plug. It is my understanding, Western Powders considers this plug to be the 'best' factory plug to use with their powder.