Disabled Gun Flooding Alternative

[gunsonwheels]

I was looking at the cannon regulations referenced by DD in another thread and noticed the ONLY method for dealing with a disabled gun was flooding, etc.   I regularly attend a shoot run by folks that's been doing it for years without mishap and when a gun failed to fire with everything from powder to fuses to quickmatch they brought out a CO2 fire extinguisher to which had been fitted a nozzle capable of being inserted into most vents... injected the liquid CO2 through the vent into the breech causing the charge and ball to be ejected by the expanding CO2 out the end of the muzzle.   After reading the regs I wonder, "gee... am I same being safe by being around such irresponsible and unsafe behavior?"  But I also am reminded how locked in it appears we are to 18th century practice.   Safe or not??  Opinions??

[Cat Whisperer]

Just what is it that you're asking?  Could you be more specific?

[gunsonwheels]

Sorry...

Is injecting liquid CO2 an acceptable/safe practice for dealing with a disabled gun (one loaded with powder and projectile that fails to fire after repeated tries using all ignition methods)??

[Cat Whisperer]

Good question.

What's good? 
No sparks, it's cool, won't support spontaineous burning, provides push to unload the gun.

What could go wrong is the real question.
At any given point IF an internal spark ignites the main charge what will happen?
  Blast coming up from the vent - where are people's hands and faces?
  Blast from exiting ball and charge - potentially a fireball.

What are the alternatives?

Time.  Sparks will only glow for a limited time, depending on (...).  But if one leaves it overnight, where is it pointing?

Delemmas need to be thought through carefully.  There are a lot of "what ifs" in this one.

[Rayfan87]

Don't people use a smaller but similar device for muzzle loading firearms? granted it isn't 100% the same deal, but as long as everything is done safely and no spark is generated, I don't really see an issue.

[Double D]

I suggest you address your  query to  ACWSA and ask them. It's their rule and they would be the ones to provide an explanation, not us.

I believe there was a long discussion on this in Artillery  Magazine some years ago about the pros and cons. Don't remember any, but I can imagine some, is which different than I know some.

Problems reported with the device in small arms...tends to blow through charge and leave powder in barrel. will blow through sabots and leave them in barrel.

[GGaskill]

My limited experience with failures to fire in cannons/mortars is to echo John Muller; depress the muzzle and the shot will roll out.  Unless you have too little windage or have patched the shot.

[keith44]

My experience with muzzleloading is mainly from shoulder fired arms.  In the event of a complete failure to fire after three attempts, and several 15 to 20 minute waiting periods.  I have more faith in flooding the powder charge with water and pulling the load.  The CO2 units do tend to leak passed the patched balls, and sabots.

Just my 2 cents

[gunsonwheels]

I'd bet one thing for sure... an 18th century gun crew in the heat of battle who had a "disabled gun" condition with a stuck projectile would have "been willing to give a right arm" to have had a CO2 unit so they could try to quickly get back in action... does give a brighter light on why to have generous windage so Muller's recommendation can happen.

[Cat Whisperer]

I'd bet one thing for sure... an 18th century gun crew in the heat of battle who had a "disabled gun" condition with a stuck projectile would have "been willing to give a right arm" to have had a CO2 unit so they could try to quickly get back in action... does give a brighter light on why to have generous windage so Muller's recommendation can happen.

Good point.

 

[Artilleryman]

I suggest you address your  query to  ACWSA and ask them. It's their rule and they would be the ones to provide an explanation, not us.

There really isn't any rule on to clear a gun that does not fire, only to flood the bore and pull the gun off to the side to be cleared after the competition is over.

Possible methods for clearing guns assuming the projectile is seated properly:

1. Dribble some powder into the vent, enough to blow the projectile out of the bore.  I had to do this once and the projectile came out and not the powder charge.  I flooded the bore and removed the charge with a worm.
2. Projectiles that have enough windage may roll or slide out of a barrel that is tipped down.  This works very well with round balls.  I have had a cannon ball roll out simply by depressing the muzzle, which gets a good laugh if you didn't want it to come out.   Difficult to do with large guns as you may have to lift the trail quite high.
3. Co2 injected through the vent.  Bottles are not usually available at most events. 
4. Flood the barrel and try to hook the projectile in some manner to pull it from the barrel.  I haven't any experience with this method and tools needed would depend on the shape of the projectile and the material it is made of.

[gunsonwheels]

The CO2 fire extinguisher (modified) was brought to the event by the range safety officer (I think his day job might have been at a extinguisher serving company).  The whole process of clearing becomes a little more envolved too when the cannon are rifles and the projectile has an inverted-rifling skirt on it that engages INTO the grooves as it is shoved and rammed toward home.  The meet referred to had mostly rifles there using that very type of projectile.  The extinguisher was used on a bowling ball mortar that failed to fire and was geometrically unsuited to be able to depress the muzzle.