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Offline ironglow

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Re: Church and State
« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2011, 11:21:44 AM »
Quote from: yellowtail3 on June 13, 2011, 07:02:15 AM
Quote from: ironglow on June 13, 2011, 02:04:27 AM
Do you get the picture now ?

I think so. Let's see... "Muslims bad, Jews Good, because God is on their side..." is that about it?
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Yellow;
  Just take what I said..as I said it please....without "reinterpretation; I know better what I was thinking when I wrote it than you do.
   Fact is; most of what I said was simply quoting Scriptures..perhaps that is what you meant to "reinterpret"..  Sure, perhaps we could have the "Yellowtail version".
  However, I wouldn't advise that in light of what is said in the 3rd from last verse in the Bible.

    "and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."  (Rev 22:19)

  (Something else those Johnny-come-lately religions & cults might observe when they 'borrow' from the real Bible).
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Offline yellowtail3

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Re: Church and State
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2011, 11:44:39 AM »
I think my read on your position is dead-on; it's not even hard call to make.
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Offline WylieKy

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Re: Church and State
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2011, 08:43:34 PM »
The NT "overwrites" the OT.  Jesus might have said " Think not that I have come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill", but I SURE enjoyed my bacon this morning.  I also don't carry rope to see how far I can walk on Saturday.  Going back to a previous conversation, Gen 17: 10-13 state that circumcision is vital to the covenant, yet Galatians 6:15 states circumcision is of no importance.  There are literally dozens of "fixes" in the NT.  The Muslim books follow the OT just as close as our NT does.  Sorry you don't feel that way.  Show me a couple of Muslim laws that don't follow the OT.  I think you'll find that their Sharia is MUCH closer to the OT than ANYTHING in the US.
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Offline WylieKy

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Re: Church and State
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2011, 08:53:43 PM »
Please excuse the double post, but I thought this was relevant.


"People of the Book (Arabic: أهل الكتاب‎ ‎ ′Ahl al-Kitāb) is a term used to designate non-Muslim adherents to faiths which have a revealed scripture. The three types of adherents to faiths that the Qur'an mentions as people of the book are the Jews, Sabians, and Christians.

In Islam, the Muslim scripture, the Qur'an, is taken to represent the completion of these scriptures, and to synthesize them as God's true, final, and eternal message to humanity. Because the People of the Book recognize the God of Abraham as the one and only god, as do Muslims, and they practice revealed faiths based on divine ordinances, tolerance and autonomy is accorded to them in societies governed by sharia."
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Offline ironglow

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Re: Church and State
« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2011, 02:18:20 AM »
Quote from: WylieKy on June 13, 2011, 08:43:34 PM
The NT "overwrites" the OT.  Jesus might have said " Think not that I have come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill", but I SURE enjoyed my bacon this morning.  I also don't carry rope to see how far I can walk on Saturday.  Going back to a previous conversation, Gen 17: 10-13 state that circumcision is vital to the covenant, yet Galatians 6:15 states circumcision is of no importance.  There are literally dozens of "fixes" in the NT.  The Muslim books follow the OT just as close as our NT does.  Sorry you don't feel that way.  Show me a couple of Muslim laws that don't follow the OT.  I think you'll find that their Sharia is MUCH closer to the OT than ANYTHING in the US.
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Thanks Wylie...you prove my point !  ;D :)  Sorry; there is no 'thumbs-up' icon !  Jesus said He had come to fulfil the law.  At the close of the OT the law was not completed or "fulfiled".  The law, such as the 10 commandments was written for 2 reasons.
 
 1) To give us guidelines to live by
 2) To PROVE to us that we could NOT live according to the letter of the law.

     Then God (Jesus) came to complete the law.  Since he is God he can do that !  He even modified the law right in front of the chief rabbis, when they tried to upbraid Him as he and the disciples plucked grain to eat on the sabbath...and when He healed people on the sabbath.  They claimed that He was to do no "work" on the sabbath..
   Where the Muslims blew it....was not recognizing Jesus for who he really is !  They have done that at their own peril...
 
  Since like Ishmael of old, they are misfits...neither conforming to either the OT or the NT, they have remained bitter since their anger and bitterness was prophesied back in (Genesis 16:11,12)..   
     They have fulfiled the prophesy to the letter; but then of course, God is never wrong !
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Offline ironglow

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Re: Church and State
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2011, 02:33:32 AM »
 Wylie says;
  " In Islam, the Muslim scripture, the Qur'an, is taken to represent the completion of these scriptures, and to synthesize them as God's true, final, and eternal message to humanity. Because the People of the Book recognize the God of Abraham as the one and only god, as do Muslims, and they practice revealed faiths based on divine ordinances, tolerance and autonomy is accorded to them in societies governed by sharia."
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
   Sounds very much like something Amadinajhad might claim.. ;) ;D   
  Wylie, how is it they missed the part where it says Isaac is the true heir and Ishmael has been cut out..and his tribes would continue to be a cancer sore on the surface of the efforts for world peace ?  They sure are making the case for (Gen 16:12).. ;) :D

           

New Living Translation (©2007)

   "This son of yours will be a wild man, as untamed as a wild donkey! He will raise his fist against everyone, and everyone will be against him. Yes, he will live in open hostility against all his relatives."  (Gen 16:12)

 
 



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Offline powderman

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Re: Church and State
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2011, 04:21:45 AM »
Quote from: yellowtail3 on June 13, 2011, 07:02:15 AM
Quote from: ironglow on June 13, 2011, 02:04:27 AM
Do you get the picture now ?

I think so. Let's see... "Muslims bad, Jews Good, because God is on their side..." is that about it?


yellow. You finally got something right. POWDERMAN.  :D :D :D ;) ;) ;)
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Church and State
« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2011, 04:25:34 AM »
Quote from: TM7 on June 14, 2011, 03:26:26 AM
The Tanach was written well before Christ (by about 2 or 3000 years) came along

False, read John 1:1 - 1:14.

Christ always existed....
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Church and State
« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2011, 06:31:56 AM »
The "new covenant" is only with his bride.  The rest are under the "old covenant" for now.  A Muslim is just following a false and baseless manmade faith system.  Most "christians" are doing the same.
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"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Church and State
« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2011, 07:13:34 AM »
I wish I knew whats in the hearts of men like ya'll seem to ..................
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Offline WylieKy

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Re: Church and State
« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2011, 07:52:50 AM »
Ironglow, I just want you to know that I am Christian and think that Muslims have been misled down a false path.  My point was, and what is relevant to, the original post is that the Laws from which this country was founded are mostly found in the OT, which Jews, Christians, AND Muslims all base their faith on.  For some reason anytime Muslims are mentioned a thread gets derailed down a "They're EVIL!/No they're NOT!" path. 
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Church and State
« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2011, 08:09:16 AM »
Quote from: SHOOTALL on June 14, 2011, 07:13:34 AM
I wish I knew whats in the hearts of men like ya'll seem to ..................

It's simple....

Matthew 7:20 "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

John 6:44 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
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"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline yellowtail3

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Re: Church and State
« Reply #42 on: June 14, 2011, 08:16:56 AM »
job of the church is diff than job of the state
they (should) operate in diff spheres
city of God, city of Man... read on it.

I suggest Colson's 'Kingdom's in Conflict' (good read)
probs come when some groups consider their position to be endorsed by God, and therefore outside of the usual political/negotiation. That's how you get Sharia.

Some of our less thoughtful fundamentalists brothers here would like their own variety - and since God Is On Their Side, they dismiss their fellows.

very good reasons to keep church and state very separate.
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Church and State
« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2011, 09:04:48 AM »
I don't need or want a church.  I'm a Christian......
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"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Church and State
« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2011, 09:12:55 AM »
Quote from: Swampman on June 14, 2011, 08:09:16 AM
Quote from: SHOOTALL on June 14, 2011, 07:13:34 AM
I wish I knew whats in the hearts of men like ya'll seem to ..................

It's simple....

Matthew 7:20 "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

John 6:44 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

We both know men who do what they are forced to yet believe different.
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Church and State
« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2011, 09:28:39 AM »
I have the book and God can reveal it to me if he wishes to.  The very best someone else can do for you, is the give you their revelation which isn't for you.

We don't need human leadership....pretty simple
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"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Church and State
« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2011, 09:48:44 AM »
I believe some are called to teach others maybe not .
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Church and State
« Reply #47 on: June 14, 2011, 10:56:06 AM »
I believe that husbands are called to teach their families, and that wives are called to teach their children.
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"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Church and State
« Reply #48 on: June 14, 2011, 11:03:22 AM »
True , but with the complex life we live it is nice to have those who study and pass on what they have gained as long as they have no agenda.
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Offline ironglow

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Re: Church and State
« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2011, 11:33:05 AM »
Yellow says;
  " probs come when some groups consider their position to be endorsed by God, and therefore outside of the usual political/negotiation."
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
  Yellow;
  Don't you believe your position is endorsed by God ?  If not, you ought to find a belief system that you are confidant God endorses....
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Church and State
« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2011, 11:35:08 AM »
when one voices the opinion of the church and not the word/opinion of God things get twisted often.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Church and State
« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2011, 11:37:18 AM »
Quote from: Swampman on June 14, 2011, 10:56:06 AM
I believe that husbands are called to teach their families, and that wives are called to teach their children.
It was important that the word of God be spread by the men who spent time learning from Jesus and that set the way we have those who teach today.
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Offline Old Fart

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Re: Church and State
« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2011, 03:54:34 PM »
Original post:

Quote from: WylieKy on June 07, 2011, 07:39:51 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/07/perrys-planned-prayer-event-draws-condemnation/

Some people have lost their minds.  I'll simplify for them.  Separation of Church and State: GOOD.  Eradication of Church by State: BAD.  I'll not get into Christian beliefs and all that crap.  The Governor of Texas issued INVITATIONS to VOLUNTARILY attend an event.  He did not DEMAND anyone attend, he did not issue warrants to drag people to the convention, he has not yet (nor do I think he will) punish anyone who failed to attend or favor anyone who did.  What the good Governor chooses to do on his own time is his own choice.  THAT is Separation of Church and State.
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Offline ironglow

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Re: Church and State
« Reply #53 on: June 15, 2011, 01:18:18 AM »
  I do agree with Wylie that the gov of Texas should be allowed to issue a "whosoever will" invitation to prayer..so long as no public funds are used in the process.
  Curiously, public funds are used in many cases to promote the religion of others..such as evolution," Mother Earth" worship and the misbegotten faith of the "greenies"   ;) ;D


  BTW Wylie; here's what Muslim clerics think of your Christian faith..and you (only takes a moment);

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIvuyeZaw2Y&NR=1

    ...And here is what they believe about our ideas of democracy..    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b74d5aq3pM&NR=1
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Offline yellowtail3

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Re: Church and State
« Reply #54 on: June 19, 2011, 06:49:57 PM »
I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump.
I ran over and said: "Stop. Don't do it."
"Why shouldn't I?" he asked.
"Well, there's so much to live for!"
"Like what?"
"Are you religious?"
He said: "Yes."
I said: "Me too. Are you Christian or Buddhist?"
"Christian."
"Me too. Are you Catholic or Protestant?"
"Protestant. Well, not protesting anything, just not Catholic... born again."
"Me too. Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?"
"Baptist."
"Wow. Me too. Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?"
"Baptist Church of God."
"Great - Me too! Are you original Baptist Church of God, or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?"
"Reformed Baptist Church of God."
"Me too. Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915?"
He said: "Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915."
This is amazing, says I. The he said, "Hey, how about that speech at Easter the Prez gave? It was pretty good - check it out!"

I said: "Die, heretic scum," and pushed him off.
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Offline ironglow

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Re: Church and State
« Reply #55 on: June 20, 2011, 01:25:43 PM »
Quote from: yellowtail3 on June 19, 2011, 06:49:57 PM
I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump.
I ran over and said: "Stop. Don't do it."
"Why shouldn't I?" he asked.
"Well, there's so much to live for!"
"Like what?"
"Are you religious?"
He said: "Yes."
I said: "Me too. Are you Christian or Buddhist?"
"Christian."
"Me too. Are you Catholic or Protestant?"
"Protestant. Well, not protesting anything, just not Catholic... born again."
"Me too. Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?"
"Baptist."
"Wow. Me too. Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?"
"Baptist Church of God."
"Great - Me too! Are you original Baptist Church of God, or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?"
"Reformed Baptist Church of God."
"Me too. Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915?"
He said: "Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915."
This is amazing, says I. The he said, "Hey, how about that speech at Easter the Prez gave? It was pretty good - check it out!"

I said: "Die, heretic scum," and pushed him off.
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  Yellow;
  I'm sorry folks like you feel that way.. just try to understand your Christian brethren a bit better.  After all. your way isn't necessarily the only way.. ;) :D
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Church and State
« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2011, 01:46:18 PM »
John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Matthew 7:14 "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."


Well at least we know there is only one way, and only a few will find it.

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"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline yellowtail3

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Re: Church and State
« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2011, 06:16:13 PM »
Quote from: ironglow on June 20, 2011, 01:25:43 PM
  I'm sorry folks like you feel that way.. just try to understand your Christian brethren a bit better.  After all. your way isn't necessarily the only way.. ;) :D

Is yours?
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Offline sidewinder319

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Re: Church and State
« Reply #58 on: June 20, 2011, 07:11:46 PM »
Muhamed first offered his revelations to the Christians.  They turned him away saying he was inspired by the Devil an not their God.  Yes and that was 622 years ago, nothing has changed.
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