Author Topic: Church and State (Read 2299 times)

WylieKy · « **on:** June 07, 2011, 07:39:51 PM »

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/07/perrys-planned-prayer-event-draws-condemnation/

Some people have lost their minds. I'll simplify for them. Separation of Church and State: GOOD. Eradication of Church by State: BAD. I'll not get into Christian beliefs and all that crap. The Governor of Texas issued INVITATIONS to VOLUNTARILY attend an event. He did not DEMAND anyone attend, he did not issue warrants to drag people to the convention, he has not yet (nor do I think he will) punish anyone who failed to attend or favor anyone who did. What the good Governor chooses to do on his own time is his own choice. THAT is Separation of Church and State.

Lost Farmboy · « **Reply #1 on:** June 07, 2011, 07:55:17 PM »

There is no such thing as separation of church and state in the constitution.

ironglow · « **Reply #2 on:** June 08, 2011, 01:58:15 AM »

It serves a purpose, namely to let us know who dislikes our national heritage (a nation rooted in Christianity)...and who we should not vote for. It makes it convenient to find out who some of the persons/groups are.. who are trying to deconstruct America.
rather like "separating the sheep from the goats".

BUGEYE · « **Reply #3 on:** June 08, 2011, 03:52:41 AM »

freedom of religon means that if people choose to pray at a school function etc. the state has no right to interfer. and the God haters have NO right to sue to stop it.
it is OUR RIGHT to pray whenever and whereever.

OldSchoolRanger · « **Reply #4 on:** June 08, 2011, 04:57:51 AM »

Quote from: Lost Farmboy on June 07, 2011, 07:55:17 PM

There is no such thing as separation of church and state in the constitution.

Your 100% correct.
The First Amendment reads "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ...", while Article VI specifies that "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."
The idea of separation of church and state is an interpretation of the 1st Amendment of the Constitution.

BUGEYE · « **Reply #5 on:** June 08, 2011, 05:04:38 AM »

the free exercise thereof........... that means nothing in this day and time. freedom will soon be an archaic term no longer used in this country.

Lost Farmboy · « **Reply #6 on:** June 08, 2011, 05:31:54 AM »

Quote from: BUGEYE on June 08, 2011, 05:04:38 AM

the free exercise thereof........... that means nothing in this day and time. freedom will soon be an archaic term no longer used in this country.

Some where between 911 and Obama care we lost our freedom. I think it was the patriot act. The constitotion is almost dead. The term freedom will be used all the time, it will just be a lie.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #7 on:** June 08, 2011, 08:11:43 AM »

Quote from: TM7 on June 08, 2011, 08:05:54 AM

The USA is not a Christian principled country ...... anymore....anyway....if it ever was.

..TM7
.

The laws of this land can be traced to the Bible in most cases . They came from British common law and can be traced back to the Bible . The satat of La. law came from French law though. So our principals may in fact be in some ways Christian principal in reality if not praticed by the citizens 100%

WylieKy · « **Reply #8 on:** June 08, 2011, 08:54:13 AM »

Quote from: Lost Farmboy on June 08, 2011, 05:31:54 AM

Some where between 911 and Obama care we lost our freedom. I think it was the patriot act.

Lincoln was the 1st to take a big chunk our of the Constitution, Bush was the greatest, and Obama has been the latest.

Quote from: SHOOTALL on June 08, 2011, 08:11:43 AM

The laws of this land can be traced to the Bible in most cases . They came from British common law and can be traced back to the Bible .

I think that the point TM7 is making is that the portion of the Bible many of the Common Law's spawned from is in fact the Old Testament which is not a "Christian" document, but a Jewish/Christian/Muslim document.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #9 on:** June 08, 2011, 09:49:33 AM »

Didn't know the Muslims were around when it was written or when the Bible was put togather . They came later.
Yes it was mostly Jewish at the time of writing but it was included in the Christian Bible .
I stand by my statement.
You or others may wish to rewrite history but it does not change the facts only misinforms those yet to come.

ironglow · « **Reply #10 on:** June 08, 2011, 12:44:16 PM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on June 08, 2011, 09:49:33 AM

Didn't know the Muslims were around when it was written or when the Bible was put togather . They came later.
Yes it was mostly Jewish at the time of writing but it was included in the Christian Bible .
I stand by my statement.
You or others may wish to rewrite history but it does not change the facts only misinforms those yet to come.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Shootall is correct:
The history revisionists like to pretend this nation was not founded upon Christian/Biblical principles. The fact is that when we review quotes from the people who "were there and done that"...who actually wrote the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, that fact becomes abundantly clear ! Take this quote from Patrick Henry..who was well acquainted with most of the signers to the Constitution:

""It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." (Patrick Henry)

Now read an abundance of quotes (save it in your "favorites") from almost all our nation's founders:
http://chuckbaldwinlive.com/founding.html

A person would need to be mentally deficient, dissembling or both...to attempt to deny God's hand in the formation of this nation.
We held qute well for the first couple hundred years before decline started. The decline slid exponentially, starting in the 1960's;
.....but many seem to forget

DDZ · « **Reply #11 on:** June 08, 2011, 01:03:49 PM »

Good posts Shootall & IG. Let the truth be spoken!
Not to repeat what you have said IG, but when the writing of our Constitution took place many of the formers used the Bible for a bases for the writing of the Constitution. (They could not have written it as is, without the Holy Bible)
Many Nations have tried to follow in Americas footsteps to build a nation like ours, but they left out one ingredient, and that was Jesus Christ.

ironglow · « **Reply #12 on:** June 08, 2011, 02:01:55 PM »

Quote from: DDZ on June 08, 2011, 01:03:49 PM

Good posts Shootall & IG. Let the truth be spoken!
Not to repeat what you have said IG, but when the writing of our Constitution took place many of the formers used the Bible for a bases for the writing of the Constitution. (They could not have written it as is, without the Holy Bible)
Many Nations have tried to follow in Americas footsteps to build a nation like ours, but they left out one ingredient, and that was Jesus Christ.

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

...And that, to their chagrin and sorrow. Unfortunately, at this present time many have chosen to turn their collective backs toward the God who gave this nation it's very life and liberty.
Can we as a nation survive the fix such people have placed us in ? ...I seriously doubt it, unless most of them drop their pretensions, turn back to the Lord, ask his forgiveness and seek to please Him from this day forward..

wareagleguy · « **Reply #13 on:** June 08, 2011, 02:15:33 PM »

Well, if tax payer money was used then I would say no way. If the no tax dollars where used then I see no issue.

OldSchoolRanger · « **Reply #14 on:** June 08, 2011, 03:59:07 PM »

Quote from: WylieKy on June 08, 2011, 08:54:13 AM

I think that the point TM7 is making is that the portion of the Bible many of the Common Law's spawned from is in fact the Old Testament which is not a "Christian" document, but a Jewish/Christian/Muslim document.

I too agree with SHOOTALL, It is my understanding that the Old Testament (the first 5 books) is a Jewish/Christian document, not a Muslim document.
Islam was founded around 622AD, six hundred and 22 years after Christ. It couldn't have been founded earlier as Mohammed wasn't born until approx. 570 AD, and died in approx. 632 AD

ironglow · « **Reply #15 on:** June 09, 2011, 01:49:34 AM »

Yes; muhammad borrowed from the Bible, utilizing some verses after placing his 'spin' on it.

BUGEYE · « **Reply #16 on:** June 09, 2011, 02:51:24 AM »

IG, when you suggest that someone turn back to the Lord you get demeaned and laughed at...
sad...

Pat/Rick · « **Reply #17 on:** June 09, 2011, 07:17:33 AM »

I can never remember how many ministers there were among the framers, and signers of our Constitution and BOR's. As I recall there were quite a few.
Yep, the patriot act (vomit!), was a travesty brought on by bushII and reaffirmed by chairman"0". Hard to pinpoint when the downward spiral started exactly. Do you start counting at the first bite, or at the first course? Its all been very incrementally done. Me, I'm thinking it started with the Whiskey Rebellion.

But yes, the whole 'seperation' thing is a court decision and in no way a Constitutional one. One that has been perverted in just about every way possible.

ironglow · « **Reply #18 on:** June 09, 2011, 11:43:21 AM »

Pat/Rick asks;
" I can never remember how many ministers there were among the framers, and signers of our Constitution and BOR's. As I recall there were quite a few."
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

I just read that stat the other day. Seems 24 out of 55 had been to Seminary or Bible school...nearly 50%...

WylieKy · « **Reply #19 on:** June 09, 2011, 07:42:48 PM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on June 08, 2011, 09:49:33 AM

Didn't know the Muslims were around when it was written or when the Bible was put togather . They came later.
Yes it was mostly Jewish at the time of writing but it was included in the Christian Bible .
I stand by my statement.
You or others may wish to rewrite history but it does not change the facts only misinforms those yet to come.

I didn't know that Christians were around when the OLD Testament was written. Wait.... We weren't.

You or others may wish to rewrite history, but it does not change the facts...only misinforms those without the ability or desire to find the truth. (See what I did there?)

The Muslims follow the Torah, which includes Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy as well as Psalms. This is the portion of the Old Testament that is relevant to this discussion as it is the basis of our laws.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #20 on:** June 10, 2011, 02:56:24 AM »

If you read a bit more you may find that forgivness enters into law as like in the Old testment we no longer stone or go by an eye for an eye. My point about the Christians was when the Bible was put togather they were there , did it really ! (SEE WHAT THEY DID THERE ).
In old times religions often had control over govt. Often all subjects were forced to support a religion. Even in todays world it still occures as tax money is used to support a church. In the USA no religion can have that power. A citizen can't be forced to support a religion or church. That is not nessary to believe in God. You are free to not believe in God if you wish . But you can't change the fact that were were founded on laws from the Bible and help from God.

powderman · « **Reply #21 on:** June 10, 2011, 07:16:07 AM »

Quote from: BUGEYE on June 09, 2011, 02:51:24 AM

IG, when you suggest that someone turn back to the Lord you get demeaned and laughed at...
sad...

YEP, very true. The biggest problem libs and dems have with the truth is that it interferes with their no morals or familily values that they pride themselves in. POWDERMAN.

WylieKy · « **Reply #22 on:** June 10, 2011, 08:13:26 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on June 10, 2011, 02:56:24 AM

My point about the Christians was when the Bible was put togather they were there , did it really ! (SEE WHAT THEY DID THERE ).

In the USA no religion can have that power. A citizen can't be forced to support a religion or church. That is not nessary to believe in God. You are free to not believe in God if you wish . But you can't change the fact that were were founded on laws from the Bible and help from God.

Yes the Christians were the ones to compile some of the many books of the Jewish religion into what we call the Bible. I never doubted that. My point about Muslims is that they follow our "Bible" the same way we follow the books the Old Testament were compiled from. As in they borrow from it and base most of their religion around it. However, their "New Testament" (The Koran) supersedes the Bible in certain areas, just as our New Testament allows us to ignore or change some of the Jewish Laws. (Such as our ability to enjoy BACON

and work on Saturday $:-\$ .) The vast majority of Muslim Law has the exact same roots as the laws our government is based upon.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #23 on:** June 10, 2011, 08:27:06 AM »

Its all in how they/we interpet the writings , even Christians have disagreement there . But it looks like they stress control where we stress freedom . But they (muslims) are a religion where America is a state .

ironglow · « **Reply #24 on:** June 10, 2011, 09:12:11 AM »

Yes, the Muslims do take some from both old and new testaments. Rather easy to do if somebody (Muhammad) is designing a new religion; he can be very eclectic..approaching the Scriptures cafeteria style..." I'll take some of this and a little of that; but I don't want any of the other...it upsets my stomach (or agenda)".
The cults of today do the same thing ! They can stick with 95% of orthodox Christianity..but it is what they do with the other 5% ..which does the real damage.
Have you noticed how Islam is full of restrictive penalties and threats of retribution by their god ? Very little love shown by him..but much punishment awaits the one who may stray in the least.
Jesus said; "love thy neighbor"..Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", "honor thy father AND thy MOTHER",
He teaches to respect the woman as "the weaker vessel" "be ye angry and sin not: let not the sun go down on your wrath" (Eph 4:26) not very Muhammad-like wouldn't you say. Things like "forgive those that despitefully use you". Ephesisns ch 5 & 6 tells us much about how to treat wives...very unlike the Koran. Truly, the Christian God is the God of love and forgiveness...not the god or wrath and revenge..

Muhammad is dead, Confucious is dead, Buddha is dead...But Jesus Christ is alive !

powderman · « **Reply #25 on:** June 10, 2011, 09:35:25 AM »

Quote from: Lost Farmboy on June 07, 2011, 07:55:17 PM

There is no such thing as separation of church and state in the constitution.

EXACTLY, thats something the libs and dems throw around when morals or family values come about. POWDERMAN.

ironglow · « **Reply #26 on:** June 10, 2011, 12:22:04 PM »

Quote from: powderman on June 10, 2011, 09:35:25 AM

Quote from: Lost Farmboy on June 07, 2011, 07:55:17 PM
There is no such thing as separation of church and state in the constitution.

EXACTLY, thats something the libs and dems throw around when morals or family values come about. POWDERMAN.

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
PM;
That view of separation and "wall of separation" are both lifted from a return letter by Thomas Jefferson, to the Danbury Baptists. (Danbury Connecticut)
The Baptists in Danbury were concerned that the Epioscoupalians were gaining a bit too much influence with the federal govt, so Thomas jefferson wrote back to the Baptists, reassuring them that such was not the case.
http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpre.html

I find it indeed interesting that Thomas Jefferson, reiterates the constitution..congress shall make no law regarding an establishment of religion, OR PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF"
Note how the liberal loonies when invoking the "establishment clause"..they never seem to get around to those last 6 words !! ...Just an 'oversight' I guess...

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #27 on:** June 13, 2011, 01:45:38 AM »

over sight ? how about AGENDA ?

ironglow · « **Reply #28 on:** June 13, 2011, 02:04:27 AM »

WylieKy says;
" Yes the Christians were the ones to compile some of the many books of the Jewish religion into what we call the Bible. I never doubted that. My point about Muslims is that they follow our "Bible" the same way we follow the books the Old Testament were compiled from. As in they borrow from it and base most of their religion around it. However, their "New Testament" (The Koran) supersedes the Bible in certain areas, just as our New Testament allows us to ignore or change some of the Jewish Laws. (Such as our ability to enjoy BACON and work on Saturday .) The vast majority of Muslim Law has the exact same roots as the laws our government is based upon. "
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Not quite like that Wylie, we are not ignoring or changing the OT ! Clearly, Jesus Himself said;
" Think not that I have come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil".

As for your belief that the Muslims follow the OT...you have a problem there, you have been intellectually "rolled" !
Islam readily admits, even brags that Ishmael is an illegitimate son of Abraham (Gen 16:4), hoiwever in their "cafeteria" style of using the OT, they completely ignore:

" And Abraham said to God, "If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!" Then God said, "No, Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant and with his descendants after him. " (Gen 17:18,19)

Another thing they totally ignore is the fact that God not only says Isaac is his chosen heir, but God goes on to prove it by have Isaac cast as a "type" for Jesus.
I (Gen 21:1-19) God commands Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, but stops the situation at the last moment. By being called upon by God to sacrifice his only (legal) son, this gives Abraham (and us) a small picture of what it was for God to sacrifice His only son Jesus...which He did !

Do you get the picture now ?

yellowtail3 · « **Reply #29 on:** June 13, 2011, 07:02:15 AM »

Quote from: ironglow on June 13, 2011, 02:04:27 AM

Do you get the picture now ?

I think so. Let's see... "Muslims bad, Jews Good, because God is on their side..." is that about it?