Author Topic: Anyone else using e-gas?  (Read 1213 times)

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Offline no guns here

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Anyone else using e-gas?
« on: June 14, 2011, 05:13:52 AM »
I'm burning it in my F150...  $3.07/gallon last Friday.  Love that better than $3.69/gallon.


NGH
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Offline Conan The Librarian

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Re: Anyone else using e-gas?
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2011, 05:22:27 AM »
Is that like E85? What kind of mileage are you getting versus, say, E10? Here in MN E10 is about the only thing available, but E85 is in some stations.

Offline no guns here

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Re: Anyone else using e-gas?
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2011, 06:51:43 AM »
yeah, it's the E85 stuff.  Don't know about the mileage.  I checked my mileage once when I first got the truck.  But haven't checked since then.  I guess I should check it on gas and E85 just to see if it's worth it.  I may not be saving as much as I think I am but then it sure feels better to pay $15/tank less.  I haven't worried about the gas mileage on regular gas because I try to drive my VW as much as possible but when I have to drive my truck, I have to drive my truck and then I just have to suck it up and pay for the gas no matter what.


NGH
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Anyone else using e-gas?
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2011, 07:15:36 AM »
If its like the bio diesel the millage goes down along with power. But its all about cost per mile , make sure its not false savings.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Conan The Librarian

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Re: Anyone else using e-gas?
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2011, 08:15:21 AM »
That's about a 15% difference in cost, so it would have to be a heck of a drop in MPG for it not to pay off.

With that much alcohol in the tank, what do you need to do for water mitigation? or isn't it humid enough where you live to be a problem? Or do  you burn a tank of gas pretty quickly so it's not a problem?

Offline no guns here

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Re: Anyone else using e-gas?
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2011, 08:48:23 AM »
it's actually rated at higher hp than gas but for some reason the fuel economy is supposed to suffer.  I guess the injectors have to pump more to get the power.  If economy is down, I don't think it is down by 15%.  Seems to run and tow just like regular fuel.  Haven't heard anything about water in the tank.  Does alcohol attract water?  I'm in San Antonio and it's pretty dang humid here on a regular basis.  I just wish the humidity would turn to rain.  I'll have to check the mileage next time I fill up with one or the other.  You are supposed to run one or the other and not switch back and forth from tank to tank to tank full.  I've been running the E85 solid for about 2 1/2 weeks now.  I've run E85 at other times but always just when I could get it on the highway and mix with a partial tank of regular fuel.  Now that there is a local station that's not really too much out of the way I'll probably buy it more often.  Will be interesting to see what the mileage differential is.


NGH
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Offline XD40SC

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Re: Anyone else using e-gas?
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2011, 08:58:40 AM »
My state now only sells e-10 gas. Been using it now for 3 years. I hate it. Destroys 2 cycle engines. Attracts water and lowers gas milage. I use to go out of my way to find a station with real gas, as we call it here. Major problem for boaters because of it's affinity to absorb water. We all use an additive [Marine Sta-bil] to our outboards. The e10 also dissolves rubber in onder engines. I'd rather pay more for the real stuff if I can find it.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Anyone else using e-gas?
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2011, 09:10:44 AM »
 The reduction in E85 gas is 30 less power per gal. than reg. gas. looking back at the 3,07 vs. 3.69 price ststed earlier thats a 17% savings with a 30% loss in power or to look at it another way to get the same power you spend $4.81 . If you add in fixing problems assoicated with the E85 the cost goes up and the advantage that never existed goes more negative.
Now HP is the amount of energy it takes to do a speficied amount of work .... so if there is less power in E85 how does it have more HP ?
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline XD40SC

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Re: Anyone else using e-gas?
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2011, 10:25:01 AM »
It's all because of the corn subsidies in the mid west. >:(

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Anyone else using e-gas?
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2011, 10:32:57 AM »
so food cost go up !  ;)
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline mirage1988

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Re: Anyone else using e-gas?
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2011, 11:56:35 AM »
It has a higher octane rating than real gas which has nothing to do with horsepower. The higher the octane the slower the fuel burns.

Offline beerbelly

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Re: Anyone else using e-gas?
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2011, 12:34:47 PM »
We all use an additive [Marine Sta-bil] to our outboards

Do you know if that will work for things like weed-eaters, small roto tillors and such. I just ordered a new small two stroke tiller that my son calls a $200 hoe!

Offline XD40SC

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Re: Anyone else using e-gas?
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2011, 01:55:39 PM »
It will help with the water absorption. Don't know how the ethanol will effect a 4 stroke. As I stated earlier- it's really hard on the 2 strokes even with the additives..

Offline XD40SC

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Re: Anyone else using e-gas?
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2011, 01:58:51 PM »
Rick Kitchings has been a small-engine mechanic for about 30 years, and he’s been busier than ever lately.

Recently, a customer came into his shop in Savannah, Ga., with a string trimmer that had barely been used. “It looked like it just came off the showroom floor, but the motor was absolutely shot, absolutely worn out,” Kitchings said.
 
The owner had fueled the trimmer with an gasoline-ethanol blend, which is becoming increasingly common thanks to a federal mandate to convert to biofuels.

Although the Web is rife with complaints from car owners who say ethanol damaged their engines, ethanol producers and automakers say it’s safe to use in cars. But smaller engines — the two-cycle utility engines in lawnmowers, chain saws and outboard boat motors — are another story.
 
Benjamin Mallisham, owner of a lawnmower repair shop in Tuscaloosa, Ala., said at least 40 percent of the lawnmower engines he repairs these days have been damaged by ethanol.

“When you put that ethanol in here, it eats up the insides or rusts them out,” Mallisham said. “All the rubber gaskets and parts — it eats those up.”
 
The sludge problem
Auto mechanics say the same thing takes place in car engines, where debris dislodged by ethanol in gas station fuel tanks can gum things up. But car engines are highly sophisticated; especially in later models, they’re equipped to comfortably handle the fallout of ethanol-blended gas, mechanics said.

The Renewable Fuels Association, a trade group for ethanol producers based in Washington, says there’s no evidence that ethanol can damage smaller engines, either.
 
“Tests completed on lawnmowers, chainsaws, weed trimmers and blower vacs with ethanol fuels showed no engine failures, no unscheduled maintenance and good performance,” the association said.
 
But mechanics across the country insist that as gasoline blended with ethanol takes over in more gas stations, lawnmowers and boat motors everywhere are choking.
 

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“They’re starving for gas, because the little needle holes in them are stopped up with the gel that happens when that stuff breaks down,” Mallisham said. “It stops them up so it can’t run.”
 
Here’s what happens: In smaller engines, ethanol can create a chain reaction of events that end up clogging valves and rusting out small metal parts — including, crucially, carburetors.
 
“When you mix ethanol with your fuel, you’ve now put a chemical substance in there that’s going to attract moisture, which is going to promote a quicker deterioration of the fuel that you have,” said Bob Magnotti, owner of Magnotti’s Small Engine Service in Roanoke, Va.

In effect, said Doug Ryms, a mechanic at Como Mower Service in Columbus, Ohio, “the alcohol actually dissipates the oil. So on a two-cycle engine, you’re lubricating the engine, but the oil is being pushed away, so it’s actually not lubricating the engine.”

That creates a gummy residue, called shellack, that clogs filters and hoses. And it does no good to follow the rocking-chair wisdom that says you’ll be fine if you drain the tank before you gas it back up.
 
“People will tell you you can take the gas out of them and it won’t happen, but it’s the residue that does the damage,” Mallisham said.
 
Ethanol already under pressure
Most gasoline sold in the United States is now mixed with up to 10 percent ethanol, according to industry estimates. Use of the blended fuel, often called E10, has grown with a federal mandate designed to boost the levels of renewable fuels at the pump. In many areas, it’s the only gasoline widely sold.
 
The fuel blend has been the focus of debate in recent months as analysts and some farmers say the diversion of corn to ethanol production has led to higher prices for corn in its use as a food crop. The Environmental Protection Agency is considering a request for a temporary 50 percent cut in new mandates for ethanol production because of concern that they are helping drive up food costs.
 
In a study released this week, researchers at Purdue University in Indiana found that corn prices had risen to $4 a bushel, the highest in a decade, largely because of the higher prices farmers can demand from fuel producers.
 
“Three dollars was just because the price of oil went up and the market demanded more ethanol to substitute for gasoline,” said Wallace E. Tyner, co-director of Purdue’s Center for Global Trade Analysis.
 
David Summers, a biofuels researcher at Missouri University of Science and Technology in Rolla, said that while ethanol was cheaper to produce than pure gasoline because it is subsidized, vehicles may also get fewer miles to the gallon.
 

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“It was the wonder fuel to get us out of trouble — and it won’t,” he said.
 
When you add in its tendency to damage some engines, many mechanics and green fuel advocates are asking whether ethanol is worth it.
 
“There is no massive PR machine working to point out the downsides of ethanol, like there is on the other side,” said Christa Westerberg, a lawyer in Stoughton, Wis., who has represented opponents of ethanol plants in Wisconsin.
 
Rick Kitchings, the mechanic in Georgia, said consumers simply should insist on pure gasoline for their small utility engines.
 
“Theoretically, avoid ethanol,” he said. “Avoid ethanol.”

© 2011 msnbc.com Reprints

Offline hillbill

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Re: Anyone else using e-gas?
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2011, 02:33:13 PM »
i read a reveiw i think in car and driver mag when the first flex fuel rigs came out. they used a chevy tahoe or similar larger suv.. it got 20 mpg on unleaded gas and 15 mpg on the e85 fuel.i dont see the saveings really myself.

Offline mirage1988

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Re: Anyone else using e-gas?
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2011, 03:58:26 PM »
It takes 9 gallons of diesel to produce one gallon of ethanol- how GREEN is that?

Offline Swampman

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Re: Anyone else using e-gas?
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2011, 04:00:36 PM »
I'm burning it in my F150...  $3.07/gallon last Friday.  Love that better than $3.69/gallon.


NGH

Bad for your engine.....
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Offline mirage1988

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Re: Anyone else using e-gas?
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2011, 06:30:35 PM »
It takes 9 gallons of diesel to produce one gallon of ethanol- how GREEN is that?
Heres a look at the brown side of the "green" movement-

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1725975,00.html


Offline XD40SC

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Re: Anyone else using e-gas?
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2011, 08:18:46 PM »
It takes 9 gallons of diesel to produce one gallon of ethanol- how GREEN is that?
Heres a look at the brown side of the "green" movement-

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1725975,00.html
were you referring about the nude German hiking trail ? :) :o

Offline steg

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Re: Anyone else using e-gas?
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2011, 11:11:45 PM »
Here in NE Pa, it's all you can get, The Gulf stations were the last holdout. It took out two Garden tractors, a tiller, and a riding mower, I did the same thing I did with them every late fall, full tank of fresh gas and start em up in early spring, the Tractors were IH Cub Cadets, a 123 and a 124, both around 65 vintage with Kohler engines, the rest were briggs. As far as mileage goes my 92 Mazda 323 was getting around 29 MPG it's now down to around 22 to 23 MPG, ask me if I like e-gas................................steg

Offline XD40SC

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Re: Anyone else using e-gas?
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2011, 01:35:24 AM »
Here in NE Pa, it's all you can get, The Gulf stations were the last holdout. It took out two Garden tractors, a tiller, and a riding mower, I did the same thing I did with them every late fall, full tank of fresh gas and start em up in early spring, the Tractors were IH Cub Cadets, a 123 and a 124, both around 65 vintage with Kohler engines, the rest were briggs. As far as mileage goes my 92 Mazda 323 was getting around 29 MPG it's now down to around 22 to 23 MPG, ask me if I like e-gas................................steg
steg wouldn't be short for Stegmeir as in beer, would it?

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Anyone else using e-gas?
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2011, 02:50:42 AM »
It has a higher octane rating than real gas which has nothing to do with horsepower. The higher the octane the slower the fuel burns.
In reality it is how the gas resist igniting under pressure . higher the number the higher the pressure before it ignites. When gas ignites from pressure before the spark plug causes ignition you get spark knock. That is why some call it the anti knock quality of the gas. It has nothing to do with burn rate.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Anyone else using e-gas?
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2011, 02:53:45 AM »
like watersaver water closets , new gas in our AC's , recycling and global warming just more BS cooked up to make a few rich at the cost of others ......
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline oldandslow

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Re: Anyone else using e-gas?
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2011, 03:43:14 AM »
It's pretty simple really. The energy contained in fuel, whatever it is is rated by BTUs.

1 gallon of gasoline contains roughly 125,000 BTUs.
1 gallon of ethanol contains roughly 76,000 BTUs.

The paragraph about farmers being able to demand more money for their corn is a bunch of hooey. Farmers sell their crops for whatever the market offers. Demand more for your crop than the market price and you can watch the bugs eat it because you won't sell it.

Offline no guns here

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Re: Anyone else using e-gas?
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2011, 04:08:06 AM »
I plagiarized this from the ford-trucks.com website...

Quote
A 5.4-liter flex-fuel V8 is the largest offered and comes with the six-speed automatic. It is rated at 310 horsepower and 365 pound-feet on gasoline (EPA 14/20 mpg) and 320 horsepower and 390 pound-feet on E85 with mileage dropped to 10/14 mpg.

So, I guess since there is less energy per unit in ethanol than gasoline, they have to pump more into the cylinder to make up for it.  Don't know exactly when I'll get it done but in the next week or so, I'll fill up with E85 (not the 10% stuff) and see what that gets me for mileage.  It'll take a while to get another a "real" gas reading on mileage though.  Maybe I'll do a test on the 10% ethanol fuel and then one on real gas, although I don't know anywhere in San Antonio that sells it.  May have to wait to get back to OK where that is what most stations advertise ("Our gas has NO ethanol")  It'll be interesting to do the math and see what the percentages all work out to.


NGH
"I feared for my life!"

Offline Conan The Librarian

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Re: Anyone else using e-gas?
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2011, 05:59:54 AM »
A 30% drop in fuel economy for a 15% drop in price per gallon. I'm really surprised the drop in fuel economy is that great. However, for a truck that's driven a lot, that's a gargantuan increase in operating costs.

It's nice to have the option of using the E85 though.

Lots of happentings in the world of fuel formulations now.

Biodiesel is being used more, and regulation is that B20 (i.e. 20% bio diesel 80% petroleum diesel) will be law in Minnesota in 2013. Interestingly, most of the diesel engines on the road aren't approved by their manufacturers for use with B20. Injection and fuel delivery are the issues. B5 seems to be trouble free and even beneficial because it improves lubricity of the new Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel fuels that are required to be sold. The lubricity is important because it affects the durability and reliability of fuel system components like high pressure fuel pumps.

Offline hillbill

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Re: Anyone else using e-gas?
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2011, 02:38:07 PM »
one thing we havent looked at is that e85 may just be another push {like cash for clunkers} to get a lot of the older cars that a lot of us more thrifty people own, off the roads for good?get rid of the older cars that last forever, force us to update our vehicles = more money flowing in the economy and less in saveings or our pockets.the e85 in my opinion will make even cars designed for it get less fuel economy and not last as long.therfore dumping more money in the economy?

Offline no guns here

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Re: Anyone else using e-gas?
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2011, 02:32:30 AM »
uh oh... here comes the conspiracies ;) 

ngh
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Offline hillbill

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Re: Anyone else using e-gas?
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2011, 04:38:04 AM »
lol well i guess i never thought of it that way. i jus always thought of it as some peoples idea of progress that i dont agree with.

Offline ironglow

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Re: Anyone else using e-gas?
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2011, 04:49:59 AM »
All we can get in NY...and our gas is more expensive than in most places.  It appears there is a drop in gas mileage..
  When I take a trip to other states my car get 40-42 mpg, here in NY state..36-39 mpg.
   My roto tiller quit the other day..just about as I finished my garden.  No simple cure, haven't torn it down yet !
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)