Author Topic: Another artillery marking question  (Read 703 times)

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Offline cannonmn

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Another artillery marking question
« on: June 16, 2011, 05:36:41 AM »
Here is another little mystery.  The French siege mortar shown is 40 cm long, with bore of 16 cm.  It was cast in Douai in 1846. I do not understand the meaning of the script letter "M" on the top.  Perhaps if I find the meaning of this "M" I will be able to decipher the "T" I asked about in another post regarding the French mountain howitzer.

I wrote "16cm" but it might really be 15cm, hard to tell.  The piece was designed ultra-light for the caliber, for use in the mountains.  It seems that extensive firing has left the bore at the muzzle in an oval shape.  It now measures about 165mm vertical and 155mm horizontal.  I don't think the wooden bed it is in is anything more than an old display bed, but I can't tell for sure.  I have a photo somewhere of a group of these captured by the Germans in WWI.  The French were still using them then, I guess because they'd still throw a shell into a trench and kill enemy soldiers the same as they did in 1846.













Offline KABAR2

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Re: Another artillery marking question
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2011, 07:36:52 AM »
It may be that the gunner's were over charging the mortar trying to reach out beyond it's normal
range, causing the streching of the bore, there is a thread with one of these mortar's that suffered a
direct hit there may be some info from the museum that had it. I will see if I can find the threat.
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Another artillery marking question
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2011, 07:42:50 AM »
Found the link and there is some info there.
Hope this helps.




http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,208276.60.html
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Another artillery marking question
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2011, 08:29:00 AM »
Thanks Al, I've never seen a photo of what the proper bed for these looked like.  That's certainly a repro but probably close to the original except I think the trunnion rests and straps underneath would have been a single forging, not pieced as those appear to be. 

I posted the same question about marks on a French antiques discussion board and the folks there are sure the single letter "M" is the initial of the founder.  For whatever reason, they are also very certain that I will never be able to find out what that M___ name is.  They actually became somewhat indignant when I suggested that it might be possible to find that name, and I'm not sure why.   There's so much stuff in Google Books now that with the right search terms I'm positive someone can find it.  Often it pays to translate what you want into the foreign language of interest before going into Google Books, since that's the way it will occur there.

Offline Zulu

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Re: Another artillery marking question
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2011, 10:38:11 AM »
Thanks Al, I've never seen a photo of what the proper bed for these looked like.  That's certainly a repro but probably close to the original except I think the trunnion rests and straps underneath would have been a single forging, not pieced as those appear to be. 

I posted the same question about marks on a French antiques discussion board and the folks there are sure the single letter "M" is the initial of the founder.  For whatever reason, they are also very certain that I will never be able to find out what that M___ name is.  They actually became somewhat indignant when I suggested that it might be possible to find that name, and I'm not sure why.   There's so much stuff in Google Books now that with the right search terms I'm positive someone can find it.  Often it pays to translate what you want into the foreign language of interest before going into Google Books, since that's the way it will occur there.

Indignant French?  Go figure.
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Another artillery marking question
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2011, 11:40:35 AM »
 ;D


(don't say it..... don't say it.....  don't say it ......)
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Offline subdjoe

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Re: Another artillery marking question
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2011, 12:18:43 PM »
It!

It it it it IT!
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Another artillery marking question
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2011, 01:53:13 PM »
Alright, that's also Louis Philippe's cypher, and two years have past with the T now become an M. I just scoured the net looking at examples of uppercase script m's, and I think I'm safe in saying that the M on this mortar is in all likelihood going to remain an M. ;)
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

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Offline cannonmn

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Re: Another artillery marking question
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2011, 04:28:02 PM »
I spent about an hour Googling and Googlebooking, and the latter was productive. 

This is the kind of document I had in mind.  The officers with names beginning with "T" and "M" can certainly be found in  "annuaire officiel de l'armée française. " This is a sample page only), because the first one I found on Google Books was for 1828, of course prior to the period of interest for me.  You can see the artillery officers have their own section, organized in order of decreasing rank and date of rank.  The officers assigned at Douai are identified as such, and their title while on duty is given.  Now I will need to find the volumes for 1843 and for 1846.  LT. GEN Tirlet had a pretty high position on this list in 1828, I wonder if he was the "T" name in 1843?  Or maybe he retired by then.  Search continues.

Oh I did post this on the French forum, humbly with no gloating, although it took all my strength to keep from ending it with ... Touché.  I don't know if they use that term, which they invented, as we've come to use it.  I don't want to burn bridges..  I can tolerate an occasional indignant outburst.   They've been polite.



Offline cannonmn

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Re: Another artillery marking question
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2011, 10:11:38 PM »
Well the folks on the French forum found the answer for the mountain howitzer anyway.  They went into the correct edition year (1843) and correct chapter of the periodical I found.  The "T" name is Tournaire, who was director of the Douai foundry, within the "Northern Department," one of the three in operation at the time.



It shouldn't take too much longer to find the 1846 edition.  If it isn't online, the Library of Congress has the series, just not sure yet what years they have of the series.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Another artillery marking question
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2011, 10:44:31 PM »
Here's an obit for LCOL Tournaire; I deleted the first couple of pages which was generic flowery stuff they probably put on many obits at that time in France.  This is an imprefect Google translation:

Guillaume Tournaire, son of Jean-Baptiste-René and Marie-Ambroisine Costilhes, was born at Riom (Puy-de-Dome), July 5, 1790. At the age of 9, he had the misfortune of losing his father, but is fortunately endowed with a rare ability, was formed in a way itself by its application to serious studies and managed so that was admitted to the polytechnic school at the age of 18. It was at the time of the height of military glory of Napoleon lcon and France, while our victorious armies walked the imperial eagles from capital to capital, and threatened to extend their domination over Europe. Any youth coveted military career despite his fatigue and his own, or perhaps even because of the charm arising from a life surrounded adventures moving and likely to lead quickly to brighter fortunes. The young Tournaire , the noble and generous heart, then took, too, on leaving school, military career, and went to school for the application of artillery and engineers in Metz. There remained only one year and was incorporated as a second lieutenant in the 2 e Regiment of Foot Artillery, and as such separated and sent to the Army of Italy (December 1811). Two months after it. already seen first lieutenant on the shores of the Adriatic, having stationed at the beautiful Venice. In this position, he was not called to be part of the Grand Army of Russia, he had the misfortune to be virtually inactive, not to share the hardships and glorious enterprise of his brothers in arms; but it so providentially escaped the horrible disasters that inflicted setbacks to imperial eagles. After the terrible retreat from Moscow and the defection of the Allied Powers, the French army did more than defeat to defeat, and after the fatal battle of Leipzig, the tour had also come to the Lieutenant Tournaire to distinguish himself in the operations that Army Franco-itahenne had to be made ​​towards the end of 1813, against the Austrians in their invasion of northern Italy, while Prince Eugene had barely had time to organize a fashion of his army observation.

The enemy from warped bridges across the Drava in Rosech, and having been covered by books on the right bank, the Viceroy decided to attack both the colon "and the Villach Rosech. The Austrians were forced derepasser Drava and destroying bridges. This is the fight that Rosech Tournaire was his first fire, he had the good fortune to distinguish them and thus win, the first case, the rank of first mate at the age of 23.

Eugene, seeing that the defection of Bavaria gave the heart of Italy to thank you of the Austrian armies, decided, after several defeats, to return to Italy, and his army retreated, leaving Trieste other major cities. Also have no hope of relief assets of France, he had to carry all his attention to the defense of the homeland. While the Italian army and continued his retreat to the Tagliamento, Tournaire , then aide of Prince Viceroy, was charged with driving a large convoy of ammunition to the destination of the Franco-Italian through the Tyrol and hostile populations. There was the greatest dangers to run, and he owed ​​the success of his company to his prodigious activity and the affability of his character, qualities that made ​​her aids the very people who were the cause of the most serious difficulties for the freedom of communications.

The Austrians fesaient further progress in Istria and Dalmatia, and the Franco-Italian army was pushed back on the Adige, where she gathered her forces to Roveredo. She then had some success: the division Rouger removed the entrenched positions of Vo, of Strazzina and Ala, our young captain had the honor to contribute to making this last stronghold.

But the left wing of the Austrians had already exceeded Vicenza, and threatened the rear of the army of Prince Eugene. A division of the enemy had already taken a position and Caldiero on the heights of Cologrola, and it was strongly entrenched, with the intention of attacking Verona and take the passage in front of the Adige. The prince viceroy determined to thwart the projects, by initiating the attacks, the victory was for him. Captain Tournaire at the battle of Caldiero, which cost the enemy fifteen hundred men out of action, nine hundred prisoners and two guns, the Franco-Italian did not lose in excess of five hundred men, it eleven thousand were brought against eighteen thousand Austrians.

But these few successes do not much advantage to our cause. The Austrians, whose forces were growing stronger by the day, continued to repress our army whose strength diminished daily. A body of Austrian and English landed into the mouths of the Po. The King of Naples is his army in motion and make arrangements hostile placed on the throne by Napoleon, Joachim Murat does not believe more then chained by the bonds of blood, nor by those of recognition: it takes to Ancona. The Austrians, meanwhile, finish to invade Dalmatia, Zara take, blocking Venice, and over the English make a landing on the coast of Tuscany.

On the other hand, the allied armies were doing their forward movement, from the Rhine into the high valleys of the Marne and Seine. Napoleon had placed himself at the head of the army united under Chalons, but in vain, France was defeated and his army withdrew to Troyes. While our troops evacuate Vitry and Chalons and fold successively Epernay, Chateau-Thierry, La Ferte-sousJouarre and Meaux, 1 st to February 10, 1814, Prince Viceroy of Italy, set on the Adige with about thirty- six thousand combatants, almost all new levies, had to face the strong Austrian army of about fifty-five thousand veteran troops. The Franco-Italian army was thus reduced to retire to the Mincio, where she could remain after having delivered a bloody battle, the Austrians lost nearly five thousand men out of action and two thousand prisoners, the loss of the French was valued at three thousand men. Tournaire took part in this battle was remarkable for the disposition of our troops, and had opportunity to deploy his courage and military skill. His good conduct led to his being named captain first.

But Murat had just resolved to not hide any longer, and his declaration of war meant to Prince Eugene. The French are forced to evacuate Tuscany and the Roman States. Pursued by the Neapolitans, however, they take an offensive les'environs in Parma, they deprive the enemy five hundred men, two guns and all the luggage, attack the city had already fallen into the hands of the enemy and resume; six hundred Austrians are killed, ten to eight hundred lay down their arms, and this number was a hundred Neapolitans who were sent to Joachim disarmed. It was at this decision of Parma as the last time the brave and jeunecapitaine Tournaire had opportunity to be courageous and unmoved in the fire. Occupying Parma, he had not to take part in the recent military events that were taking place in Italy, while the allied powers had already made ​​their entry into Paris.

Prince Eugene, having finally learned the abdication of his father and the cease-fire concluded in Paris, treated the evacuation of Italy, and in the first days of May 1814, French troops had to cross the Alps , but not without throwing from the top of these mountains, a last sad look "on whose land eette independent" dance had been cemented by the shiny ar "and my. the blood of an entire generation of brave. " (Koch, campaign 1814); "

In this retreat, Captain Tournaire knew run with dedication and intelligence he had received the order to return to France with his equipment. His own authority, he disarmed the strong who found themselves on the road in Savoy, the material collected and preserved to his country and a considerable number of guns that led to Lyon.

Here ends sort of military life Tour 'Nair that it has a brilliant, glorious, and if his career was not completely broken when it was at least greatly stopped. A restoration of the Bourbons, the appointments of recent date has not been ratified, he was laid off with the rank of second captain, the captain was already there, and lost and gained the position on the field of battle, risking his life. But we do not let that six months in non-activity, and recalled to duty as first mate, he was appointed captain in the first final in 1820, and only 12 years later, in 1832, that he reached the rank of squadron leader. Was attached by three different times in the arms factory of St. Etienne, and finally as Deputy Director of the institution, its leaders were able to appreciate his varied knowledge and administrative talent , c ' which is designated to take him to the War Office the position of chief of staff of his weapon. He held this position for seven years distinguished, and that there was work to be completed in 1830 and subsequent years was now very considerable, because the reorganization of the army. The zeal with which the com principal Tournaire acquitted himself, certainly contributed to weaken his health for the rest of his life, but also of services rendered to the state, and that obligations owed ​​him a crowd of officers; all those who have dealt with him, have become as many friends, and that their claims still could not achieve according to their desires. Successively appointed a Knight of St. Louis in 1826, and Knight of the Legion of Honor in 1831, he left the ministry in 1836 to take command of the artillery of Dieppe and its coastline, but because of his extensive knowledge of the workshop, he was immediately appointed director of the Foundry guns Douai. This has been under the administration of important developments, and manufacturing of guns many enhancements. Endowed with a remarkable aptitude for work, Tournaire left the foundry a lot of notes, reports and dissertations on various parts of the service of this establishment. On the indefatigable activity, there watching all by himself and needed the fatigue with less conscience he might have avoided. The committee artillery was able to recognize and appreciate this zeal, love the service, and he expressed his satisfaction by making an Officer of the Legion of Honor in 1841, and spend Lieutenant Colonel in 1843.

Continuing to live the city of Douai , a hospitality so kindly to strangers and the colony, as he liked both the recall with gratitude, Colonel Tournaire , who never understood that right and duty it could not fail to make estimate for its excellent qualities, and the National Society of Central Agriculture, Science and Arts of the Northern Department, sitting at Douai , do not miss the opportunity to call in her womb . But as a result of another change of position, it ' could remain a member residing a short time, during which he found, however, * way to present a general notice on the Marion and some interesting reports to the standing committee Sciences Natural.

Promoted to colonel in 1846, he was called to the post of Director Colonel of artillery from the direction of Douai , where he left traces of his administrative skills. But the position of inspector of national foundries of France became vacant soon after, he was called by the government's confidence in his knowledge and experience. The retreat was to be achieved in July 1850, and had to retire in the Auvergne, the country he loved with passion, and where, to his entire family affections, he promised himself the pleasures of a good man , an excellent husband and father. But the good Tournaire, so he is known in the artillery, was unable to reach the sweet satisfaction. Always animated by an ardent zeal for work, and tireless when it came to services to be rendered, he finished exhausted in the last days of his stay in Paris, his health already so weakened and undermined by the disease. Its leaders, his friends, his family urged him worried in vain to save his failing strength, however, they managed to finally determine to take some rest in his native country. He went there, but instead to engage in that rest which was so necessary and so recommended, he let himself be carried away by the excitement of the work and he sacrificed his last days. Having occupied a lot of reforestation of the mountains, he would use his knowledge, and it is by visiting a forest belonging to him, and staying on horseback twice for eight consecutive hours, only two days apart, he was tired to the point never to rise again, and so died in Riom, November 17, 1849, this life of 59 years. But what did notoff, that lives and will live always in the middle of all those who knew Colonel Tournaire, are, as we have already said, the good memories he left us, and the past and we are always present, we can say and repeat again: Yes, Tournaire was excessive modesty and erudition, however, had extensive and varied, sometimes gushing in his conversations with striking features and original in form and expression, his conversation was as enjoyable and instructive, he had read and retained a lot. On the one unquestioned loyalty and extreme kindness to all who approcbaient, he continued to give evidence of multiple character mostly obliging and helpful. He even went to services to be rendered, and on this subject could be extended as long as you want, without fear that praise dépassât truth. Few officers have indeed had many friends that Colonel Tournaire : all who had any relationship with him never failed to visit him when they passed by Douai, quelquesuns even came there on purpose to see and to show their commitment. If we will visit the arms factory of St. Etienne, but with the good memories of Captain Tournaire this in memory of the old controllers and workers who serve in this institution. The workers of the foundry Douai , they still cherish as a father, he had all the solicitude for them.

And you, gentlemen, by giving one of you care to tell what was Colonel Tournaire , you wanted to associate with mourning his untimely death has thrown into the heart of all his friends, and show again your respect and your affection for a former colleague and very regrettable.







Offline cannonmn

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Re: Another artillery marking question
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2011, 03:36:31 AM »
Here's some additional info including a list of directors of the Douai foundry over time, from a Google book.  This tells us that the "M" guy was Lt. Col. Mocquard.  The list doesn't show him in office until 1847, but since the 1846-dated mortar has the "M" he must have been serving in an "acting" capacity prior to his appointment-of-record.  The automatic Google translation is a bit shaky, especially since the input to it is machine character-reading from the old, printed text.

___________________________________________

We are sure to wake up in the heart of many nosconcitoyensd'honorable / etmêmed'affectueux memories, leurrappelant the names of the officers of artillery, who for forty years, were placed at the head of the foundry, where we will join the list of directors under the company are:

From 1669 to 1696 Jean Balthazar Keller and his brother Jeanjacques, Zurich (1); From 1696 to 1723 of Claude Falize Berenger, born in Hesdin, Commissioner regular cast of the artillery of France (2), died at the age of 59 years from 1723 to 1738 Nicolas Bérenger, nephew of the former Commissioner of the regular cast artillery from 1738 to 1747 of François-Bérenger Onicourt Simon, brother of Nicolas-Jean, former provincial commissioner of artillery;

(1) The family Delannoy, Douai, who gave a teacher said.guish at the Faculty of Medicine, is proud to be closely allied to these Keller.

From 1747 to 1793 Jean-François Bérenger, son of;

From 1793 to 1795 Mr. Bouquero;

From 1795 to 1801 Jean-François Bérenger, reinstated

functions, and died June 30, 1802, From 1801 to 1819 Jean-Théophile Berenger of Perieres, over "the previous;

HÉGIME OF THE BOARD.

From 1819 to 1822 left the artillery commander, he left Douai to go organize the casting of Toulouse;

From 1822 to 1826 Louis Baron Amaury de la Grange, now retired artillery colonel, at Douai;

From 1826 to 1837 Mr. Dusaussoy and had long studied the art of cast iron, the foundry of Seville, then one of the most renowned in Europe, died in 1846, retired colonel in Douai;

From 1837 to 1847 Mr. Tournaire, Death Colonel Inspector foundry in Paris;

From 1847 to 1849 Lieutenant Colonel Mocquard, now a retired colonel, Brest;

From 1849 to 1854 Mr. David, a retired lieutenant colonel in Paris.

Since 1854 Mr. Martin, who arrived as a squadron commander, lieutenant-colonel in 1860.It is easy to visit the foundry of Douai, it suffices to contact the concierge.The cast usually take place Saturday, at six o'clock in the morning.Visitors will notice above the door gnnde entrance, a small bell hanging; it comes from Séhastopol and was laid May 26, 1857.And are also almost always in progress, parts of bronze curious, or that any guns fagisse old chased the time of Louis XIV and Louis XV or specimens of artillery foreign products of our victories.

Note finally that the touching custom engraved on the barrels before they emerge from the foundry, the name of some officer of artillery fell on the battlefield.


Offline subdjoe

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Re: Another artillery marking question
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2011, 08:59:19 AM »
I've been remiss - Welcome back, Cannonmn, good to see your posts here again. 
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Another artillery marking question
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2011, 09:13:26 AM »
Very good! I now personally renounce most forms of Francophobia.
While it was always probable that the smaller script letters on these pieces represented the names of men that held the position of what was earlier known as the "Grand Maître de l'artillerie", or (as it actually turns out) the initials of the superintendents of foundries, the question of what the T signifies on the gilt model that I posted still hasn't been addressed. Taking into consideration the prominent placement of the 'cypher' on the barrel I dont think it's possible that it signifies either of those titles.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Another artillery marking question
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2011, 11:43:10 AM »
My guess on that one is Tallyrand, the Prime Minister, if the piece is dated during his brief tenure in 1815.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Another artillery marking question
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2011, 04:22:46 PM »
correction to last post:  I just learned the model shown was cast in AN IX =1800 approximately, and Tallyrand wasn't PM then, so it won't be him.