Author Topic: Unknown Cannon (Read 1906 times)

Rotunda · « **on:** June 18, 2011, 09:21:15 AM »

Does any one know what the cannon in the photos is?

I came across it this morning about 500 yards away from the old Parade ground of the Royal Artillery in Woolwich. It must have been there for years but I just never noticed it.

As you can see, the finish on the out side of barrel is very rough.

dominick · « **Reply #1 on:** June 18, 2011, 09:52:45 AM »

I believe it's a rifled muzzleloading Armstrong gun. I'm not sure of the size. Here's a link to photos of some on carriages.

http://www.victorianforts.co.uk/art/gal1.htm

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #2 on:** June 18, 2011, 10:00:39 AM »

I'm most certain it's an 8" Armstrong RML (Rifled Muzzel Loader) . There is a whole row of these at Ft. Ives in Canada that look exactly like the one in your pic. The one in the photo below is in position to fire at the side and sterns of ships trying to invade Halifax Harbor in Nova Scotia, Canada. All the details of shape appear to match up with your unknown cannon, Rotunda. What do you think?

Tracy

Photo attributed to East by East Blog: http://east-by-east.blogspot.com/2011/06/fort-ives-mcnabs-island.html

keith44 · « **Reply #3 on:** June 18, 2011, 12:21:20 PM »

Quote from: seacoastartillery on June 18, 2011, 10:00:39 AM

I'm most certain it's an 8" Armstrong RML (Rifled Muzzel Loader) . There is a whole row of these at Ft. Ives in Canada that look exactly like the one in your pic. The one in the photo below is in position to fire at the side and sterns of ships trying to invade Halifax Harbor in Nova Scotia, Canada. All the details of shape appear to match up with your unknown cannon, Rotunda. What do you think?

Tracy

Photo attributed to East by East Blog: http://east-by-east.blogspot.com/2011/06/fort-ives-mcnabs-island.html

I think if that is the firing position, I will maintain some distance as the elevation looks a bit low for a safe accurate shot.

dominick · « **Reply #4 on:** June 18, 2011, 12:45:52 PM »

Quote from: keith44 on June 18, 2011, 12:21:20 PM

I think if that is the firing position, I will maintain some distance as the elevation looks a bit low for a safe accurate shot.

How do you think they made the hole in the wall? "Just gotta trim up the sill plate a little here."

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #5 on:** June 18, 2011, 03:57:40 PM »

It was the grounds keeper!

I overheard him say *%&%^ gopher!

RocklockI · « **Reply #6 on:** June 18, 2011, 08:41:18 PM »

Thats just plain silly .... it is clear that the hydrolic lines are out .

BTW the spell check is not working for me ....maybe I wore it out !

Gary

keith44 · « **Reply #7 on:** June 18, 2011, 08:55:52 PM »

hydraulic

that one I know

Owen · « **Reply #8 on:** June 19, 2011, 12:50:03 AM »

Is this the same type?

closer look nope but similar .. but if you know it is in Melbourne Australia

Rotunda · « **Reply #9 on:** June 19, 2011, 03:09:23 AM »

HI everyone,

Thanks for all your information. At least I have the name “Armstrong RML” to work on.
I will try and get back there and this time take a tape measure and notebook to record the bore dia. and other dimensions.

Has anyone got any ideas as to why the outside finish is so rough? The photos that have been posted on this topic all seem to show barrels with a comparatively smooth outside finish, even though they are over 100 years old and have been left to the elements.

GGaskill · « **Reply #10 on:** June 19, 2011, 09:34:07 AM »

Seems like the other ones have gotten more frequent coats of paint.

Bob Smith · « **Reply #11 on:** June 19, 2011, 09:45:49 AM »

check the trunnion faces; there should be marks there.
Bob Smitc

dominick · « **Reply #12 on:** June 19, 2011, 10:11:06 AM »

The rough finish is likely due to corrosion. Some of these barrels were discovered submerged in water.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/13439092@N04/3375317485/in/pool-victorianartillery

Starr 2011 · « **Reply #13 on:** June 19, 2011, 10:13:09 AM »

Rotunda

You should know this one! It is a "Woolwich Gun", designed by Mr Fraser of the Woolwich Arsenal in 1865 to replace the defective Armstrong guns then in British service. It was far simpler in manufacture with few sleeves around the tube and was rifled on the "French" principle with three elliptical grooves for studded shells. "Woolwich Guns" were made in several calibres from 7 inches upwards for many years.

Here's a picture of one of your gun's many sisters - an 11 inch Woolwich Mark 2 piece from 1872.

Starr

keith44 · « **Reply #14 on:** June 19, 2011, 11:20:28 AM »

The cannon in the pics of the OP looks to have been neglected for many many years, and then just picked up and put on display. The mold (or flakey corrosion) and exterior pits really make me think it was abandoned, buried and forgotten for a time.

dominick · « **Reply #15 on:** June 19, 2011, 12:53:45 PM »

Quote from: keith44 on June 19, 2011, 11:20:28 AM

The cannon in the pics of the OP looks to have been neglected for many many years, and then just picked up and put on display. The mold (or flakey corrosion) and exterior pits really make me think it was abandoned, buried and forgotten for a time.

It would be just the kind of phone call any cannon enthusiast would love to receive. " Hey we were digging in my backyard to put in a pool and we found this huge old cannon barrel. If you want it, it's yours, come and get it out of here.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #16 on:** June 20, 2011, 03:20:11 AM »

Quote from: Starr 2011 on June 19, 2011, 10:13:09 AM

Rotunda

You should know this one! It is a "Woolwich Gun", designed by Mr Fraser of the Woolwich Arsenal in 1865 to replace the defective Armstrong guns then in British service. It was far simpler in manufacture with few sleeves around the tube and was rifled on the "French" principle with three elliptical grooves for studded shells. "Woolwich Guns" were made in several calibres from 7 inches upwards for many years.

Here's a picture of one of your gun's many sisters - an 11 inch Woolwich Mark 2 piece from 1872.

Starr

You've got a well trained eye, Starr.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,220365.0.html

http://oldbritishguns.com/woolwich-guns

shooter2 · « **Reply #17 on:** June 20, 2011, 04:38:41 PM »

Owen
Whereabouts in Melbourne is that particular Gun? It looks very similar to the one used as a prop in the recent SENSIS Australia TV ad by Telstra about a Cannon Safety Inspector. I wondered where it was filmed.

shooter2

Cannoneer · « **Reply #18 on:** June 21, 2011, 06:38:49 AM »

flickr by redmondaddams

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30055226@N08/4063823764/in/pool-475648@N23/

http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM97X5_Rifled_Muzzle_Loading_Fortress_Gun_Williamstown_Australia

shooter2 · « **Reply #19 on:** June 21, 2011, 03:23:24 PM »

Cannoneer,
thanks for that. It is indeed the very cannon I was thinking of. Williamstown Eh? I have catalogued the guns at Fort Queenscliffe but never detoured to Williamstown. Next time I am in Melbourne I will have to go there. The location was drving me spare ever since I saw the Ad on TV. I wanted to know where it was. Problem now solved.

Thanks again
shooter2

Owen · « **Reply #20 on:** June 21, 2011, 08:08:03 PM »

Another thanks for that

. A friend sent me the pic with "saw it in Melbourne" I had no other details. Next time im down there ill go and see it myself now.

Owen

shooter2 · « **Reply #21 on:** June 22, 2011, 01:00:39 AM »

I could be getting myself into hot water here but I had another look at the Armstrong RML that Tracy saw in St Ives Canada. I believe that particular piece is a 10 inch 18 Ton RML Mark II introduced in 1867 and not an 8 inch gun. I base this on the gun I examined at Georges Head (Sydney Aust.) which is its duplicate even down to the carriage and slide. I measured its bore at 10 inches. These guns were produced by both the Royal Gun Foundry and Elswick Ordnance Company (EOC).

The gun that Owen posted and now confirmed as being at Williamstown Victoria is I believe the
9 inch 12 Ton RML Mark 1 (1865).

The gun posted by Rotunda at the beginning of this thread is either an 80 pounder or 70 pounder (hard to tell without measurements, they are very close and both came out the same year 1866) 4 Ton RML produced only by EOC. This particular gun does not appear to be of the service pattern and may have been produced on order for a customer other than the Crown.

I am now open to corrections and contradictions on my statements. My only goal is to learn more about ordnance. British and Colonial fortress guns are a passion of mine.

shooter2

Starr 2011 · « **Reply #22 on:** June 22, 2011, 03:52:29 AM »

Rotunda's gun at Woolwich is shown in the "British Victorian Artillery" picture stream on Flickr, noted by Cannoneer. The BVA contributor Okehills, who I know to be an expert, has inspected the piece and identifies it as a 10 inch Woolwich rifle muzzle loader Mark 11, weighing 18 tons. The only mark remaining visible on its corroded body is a "Crown VR", which indicates that it was for government service.

Needs some TLC

Starr

shooter2 · « **Reply #23 on:** June 22, 2011, 11:26:59 AM »

I stand corrected. Thanks for the update Starr2011. It was hard for me with no measurements, but I thought I was on the money Oh well. Good to have an authorative view on it.

shooter2

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #24 on:** June 22, 2011, 12:58:14 PM »

Quote from: shooter2 on June 22, 2011, 01:00:39 AM

I could be getting myself into hot water here but I had another look at the Armstrong RML that Tracy saw in St Ives Canada. I believe that particular piece is a 10 inch 18 Ton RML Mark II introduced in 1867 and not an 8 inch gun.
shooter2

Shooter2, There is no need to feel that way. We are here to learn too, which is why I really appreciate the information, besides you develop quite a thick hide as a machine shop inspector for 35 years. The very, very best have tried to hurt my feelings. Their efforts were for naught.

The site from which I extracted that info and photo was a Canadian one. To be fair to them I must tell you that 80% of the site dealt with the WWI disaster that befell Halifax, Nova Scotia when the Norwegian ship, SS Imo collided with the French cargo ship, SS Mont- Blanc, fully loaded with Military explosives, including Benzene and Picric Acid, resulting in the largest explosion to that date, 2.9 kilotons. Halifax was largely destroyed with extensive loss of life. The characterizations of the guns was an ancillary issue. That was four years ago that we obtained that picture. The site was one of those temporary, Free, build-your-own, websites that no longer exists.

The reason that we never required bore size identification in any of the 'What is it? Where is it?' contests that we created for GBOcannons members, was that you must have an object with known dimensions near the cannon in question on the same plane as the muzzle in order to properly calculate bore size from a photo.

Thanks also to Starr 2011 for his information. If either of you gentlemen could suggest a good book on the Woolwich Guns, please let us know.

Tracy and Mike

Starr 2011 · « **Reply #25 on:** June 22, 2011, 01:34:56 PM »

Shooter 2

I agree with Tracy & Mike. We all hope to learn a little more, or to provoke others to fill the gaps in our knowledge.

As far as I know there isn't one book that describes the Woolwich Guns. They were made at Woolwich Arsenal (pretty obviously!) in 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 12.5, 13 and 16 inch calibres for naval and army use, in thirty different "marks" or patterns, from 1865 until the mid-1880s.

Attached is a dimensioned diagram of a 16 inch Woolwich piece showing their simplified structure.

Keep sharing, Shooter2

Starr

shooter2 · « **Reply #26 on:** June 23, 2011, 04:08:23 PM »

Starr2011 and Seacoast,
Thanks for the encouragement. I do not take offence when I learn something new. In fact after perusing Okehills photos 'British Victorian Artillery' on Flikr I have learnt a whole lot more that I did not know beforehand. It seems Mr Okehills and I have been to the same places in Australia to photgraph cannon on more than a few occasions. I thought between a friend of mine who wrote a guidebook on Australian Seacoast and Defensive Cannon and myself we had covered most of the guns in Australia. Boy was I wrong. There are a few entries there that I had never seen or heard of. Equally, I have a few that he must have missed, local knowledge finally counts for something I suppose. His photos of ordnance found in the UK fills in a few missing pieces on my database as well. I must try and contact him via Flikr and get some scoop on places to visit on the Continent for my Grand Tour.

As to books on the subject of Woolwich guns, I have not seen one. The English these days seem almost ashamed of their martial history and have very little formal texts and catalogues on their 19th century productions. Here is Australia we have a small groundswell of interest. The best book I have read on Australian Ordnance is 'The Fragile Forts' which is a reasonably complete history of ordnance used to defend Sydney Harbour dating from 1788 to 1945. The definitive book on Victorian Aritillery is yet to be written.

BAD NEWS - Just been informed the North Head Artillery Museum in Sydney has been disbanded. This was the only Australian Army backed Museum that dealt in our artillery history. The exhibits have been sent to various military locations and are basically lost to the public for viewing. I was only there 2 years ago to catalogue their muzzle loading exhibits, now it appears to be gone.

shooter2 (always learning)

Cannoneer · « **Reply #27 on:** June 23, 2011, 06:41:50 PM »

Quote from: Starr 2011 on June 22, 2011, 03:52:29 AM

Rotunda's gun at Woolwich is shown in the "British Victorian Artillery" picture stream on Flickr, noted by Cannoneer. The BVA contributor Okehills, who I know to be an expert, has inspected the piece and identifies it as a 10 inch Woolwich rifle muzzle loader Mark 11, weighing 18 tons. The only mark remaining visible on its corroded body is a "Crown VR", which indicates that it was for government service.

Needs some TLC

Starr

Two of my favorite photos from this flickr group (BVA); one for the foreshortened view, and the other (of the same gun) for a great shot of that magnificent carriage.

flickr Photos by David Alan Moore

"A beautiful British 10-inch R.M.L. of 18-tons on display at Quebec Citadel. When I visited this piece still had most of its original fittings including the lanyard guide. It in perfect condition with little corrosion."

"This photo was taken on August 16, 2007 in Quartier Petit Champlain, Quebec, QC, CA."

A.Roads · « **Reply #28 on:** June 24, 2011, 01:00:52 PM »

It is indeed the very cannon I was thinking of. Williamstown Eh? I have catalogued the guns at Fort Queenscliffe but never detoured to Williamstown. Next time I am in Melbourne I will have to go there. The location was drving me spare ever since I saw the Ad on TV. I wanted to know where it was. Problem now solved. Thanks again shooter2

Yes that was a great ad, I'd love to have that guy's Job - just checking all old cannons regularly to make sure they are safe.....

Williamstown has four of these 9" RML's, one pair on "The Strand" facing the city & another pair in Fort Gellibrand. Of the fort pair one has a projectile stuck half in the muzzle, where it has remained for decades - the fort is an active army establishment but the cannon can be viewed from quite close thru the perimeter fence. Three of the four cannon are blank fired annually by the HRSA (Historic Re-enactment Society of Australia), the Strand pair are each fired twice for the Williamstown Festival & the Fort cannon (the unblocked one) is fired twice at an annual charity ball - each time the HRSA are in appropriate historic uniform & each blank is one kilo of powder.
There is actually a link to the Fort gun being fired on http://www.cerberus.com.au/videos/callvideo.html scroll down all the short videos until you get to "Firing 9 inch RML Gun". There are a few interesting other short video clips there as well.
Incidently major works to the local Gellibrand oval stadium & have recently uncovered long buried sections of the original Fort from earlier times when it was much larger.

If visiting Williamstown you will also find HMAS "Castlemaine" which is a floating ship/museum & worth looking through.

Adrian.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #29 on:** June 24, 2011, 05:34:18 PM »

Quote from: A.Roads on June 24, 2011, 01:00:52 PM

It is indeed the very cannon I was thinking of. Williamstown Eh? I have catalogued the guns at Fort Queenscliffe but never detoured to Williamstown. Next time I am in Melbourne I will have to go there. The location was drving me spare ever since I saw the Ad on TV. I wanted to know where it was. Problem now solved. Thanks again shooter2

Yes that was a great ad, I'd love to have that guy's Job - just checking all old cannons regularly to make sure they are safe..... the original Fort from earlier times when it was much larger.

Adrian.

Hi Adrian,

Hey, wait a second, I'm becoming disillusioned, I thought that was basically an accurate description of your job.