Colt .45 SAA Shoots High

[poorcountrypreacher]

Looks like there's a lot of knowledgeable 6-gunners here, so maybe somebody can give me an idea of what to try with my gun. I've always wanted a SAA, so I came across one reasonably priced a few months back and bought it. Its a 3rd generation made in 1978 with a 7.5" barrel. After plinking with it a while, I decided I want to try to kill a deer with it this season.

I've got many years of experience in reloading, but this is the first attempt to load for a revolver. I've been very disappointed to find that every load I try shoots high - most of them over 6" high at 25 yds. I've done a lot of reading and wanted to develop a load with 250g Hornady XTP, and also a load with a hard-cast Keith bullet. I found some XTP locally and loaded and shot some Friday. I had some Unique and Blue Dot, so I decided to start with those powders.

I have a copy of Ken Water's Pet Loads book, and found good info from him on the .45 colt. He divided the .45s into 3 categories - true Colts made before 1905, modern Colts and clones, and a 3rd category for TCs and Rugers. The loads that he recommended for modern Colts like mine are hotter than what I've seen in reloading manuals, but Ken knows what he is talking about and I felt safe using his loads. I also used his method of measuring for case expansion in working up the loads.

I haven't gotten great accuracy with anything, but the better loadings gave me 2.5 - 3" groups. The Unique loads are dead on L-R, but about 6" high. The Blue Dot loads shot an inch or 2 to the left, but were also high, though the hottest one was slightly lower, about 5". I had some Hornady Leverevolution factory 225g ammo and they shot only 2" high. Winchester Cowboy loads with 250g lead bullet were 7" high and 5" R. All these were shot from a sandbag, but I was careful to keep the barrel off the bag and the rear of the grips from touching anything. Velocity ranged from 705 for the Cowboy loads to 943 for the Hornady factory load. My fastest Unique load ran 916 and the fastest Blue Dot load was 907.

I am not quite at the max for Ken's Unique load, but I'm only .5g under it. Using data at the Alliant site, I can go 1g higher on the Blue Dot. From all that I know about trying to get a revolver to shoot lower, I've got to figure out some way to get it out of the barrel faster, so that means either a lighter bullet or more velocity with the bullets I'm using. If that fails, I guess I've got to have a new, taller front site installed. I'd prefer to not do that to a SAA. I don't think my shooting technique is the problem. I've been shooting Contenders for years and have killed a dozen or so deer with one. This gun shoots high no matter how I hold it; others have shot it with the same results.

Anyone got any ideas to try? A 200g bullet might solve the problem, but finding a decent 200g bullet in .452 size is not easy. I haven't tried a hard cast bullet yet - is it possible that they might shoot lower? I wouldn't mind at all hunting with  a 250-255g hard cast bullet at 900 fps or so; just drill a .45 hole all the way thru the deer and that should do that job. But no point in trying that if its likely to shoot as high as the XTP.

I've seen recipes with other powders that get velocity up above 1000 fps, and that might be the best route to try next. I'm not sure whether I ought to buy some new powders or new bullets. Any help from anyone that's already been thru this would be greatly appreciated!

Good hunting and shooting to all.

[gcrank1]

Ive had good luck with moderate loads using 200, 220 and 235ish? gr. lead; the 250ish recoil more and print high. Maybe Im lucky, but .452 bullets for 45ACP work fine in my Uberti 'Millenium'. Open sighted handgun for me deer hunting still means pretty close, so even a moderate load in the proper place will down a deer, I dont need a 45 Magnum.
Also, shoot that gun from the kind of positions you would use while hunting; not likely you will have a bench out there, use gloves like you would maybe be wearing too.
Old timers seem to know more about the concept of 'holding a fine' sight. Rather than a 'target sight picture' (all points level across the top), drop the front blade down into the bottom of the rear notch (a little dab of paint on that tip helps) which lowers the POI.

[poorcountrypreacher]

Thanks for the reply, gcrank. It sounds like I need to locate some good 200g bullets and try that next. I'm not looking for a .45 magnum either, and don't plan to try to shoot over 50 yds, and probably not that far. But I would like a bullet that will give complete penetration and a blood trail.

Holding a fine bead is the only way I've been able to shoot the gun with factory ammo. I sure would prefer the target sight picture; I wear progressive lens in my glasses, and getting in just the right spot to see both the sights and target is difficult even on a target. Having to take a fine bead while hunting would just be one more thing for me to forget.

[gcrank1]

Yeah, those 'progressive ' lenses have messed me up too, I find I do better with an older single vision pair for shooting. I had to do the paint on the tip to make sure what I was seeing up there.
As for 200gr'ers, the old 44-40 did right well, if you duplicate that load in your 45 you will too.

[poorcountrypreacher]

Thanks for the ideas. I'll try a little paint on the sight, and I've got old reading glasses I can try too. Ordered some 200g bullets last night; I'll let you know how they do.

[gcrank1]

I should have mentioned, too, that you really do want to see the front sight clearly, even if the rear and the target fuzz a bit. Just like with a rear peep sight, given adequate light 'bars' either side of the front blade, your eye will tend to center the blade in the rear notch. Even if the target 'bull' is fuzzed your eye/mind wants to aim at the center of 'color'.

[Frank V]

Poorcountrypreacher
I've got a couple suggestions. The first is to try bullets sized .454 rather than .452, a lot of Colts have chamber mouths of .455-.456. This may improve your accuracy.
Second unless you want to shoot 200gr bullets, & that might bring down your point of impact, I'd search out a good gunsmith, find one who can heli-arc weld. A good smith who can heli-arc can build up your front sight high enough for you to later file it down to bring impact to the sights.
      I know this is possible because I ran up against exactly the same thing with a SA in .44-40. It worked wonders & only cost me about $100 for that & a mini tune up of the action. I did make sure of what load I was going to use the most before I put a file on the front sight & then went VERY slowly. I'd shoot it one day, then again a day or two later just to confirm it was the gun & not me. Then I'd file just enough to notice a slight drop in impact. I did this till I have it shooting just over the front sight. It took me almost two weeks for this process. It was well worth it.
Good Luck & good shooting.
Frank

[Frank V]

Poorcountrypreacher
Double post, sorry.
FV

[poorcountrypreacher]

Thanks for the info, Frank. My gun does indeed have .455 chambers. I've been thinking that I ought to get some .454 cast bullets and see if that improves the accuracy and my POI issue. Glad to know that a good gunsmith can build up on the front sight if I have to do it.

But I also have found out that part of the problem might be me. I talked to a CASS guy and he said to use a completely different sandbag technique than what I was using. What works with a Contender apparently doesn't work well with a SAA. He said to rest the butt of the gun on the sandbag; I read in another place that a guy said to hold the guns as tightly as possible. I made up a new load and tried these techniques together and the gun is centering around the bullseye. Maybe the whole problem is just me.

I only shot 10 rounds today; I'll try to make up more loads and test further. I'll let all know how it turns out.

I'm thinking some .454 cast bullets might be the best hope for this gun. Will I get into pressure problems when those .454 bullets are forced into the .451 barrel? Loading for a SAA is more complicated than any gun I've worked with before. And much of the information I've read contradicts what another source says.

Good shooting to all,

[sidewinder319]

The early Colts were sighted to be on at 70 yards with the military issue loads. Colt uses this same sight on modern Mdl P handguns.  These were combat weapons not target or hunting weapons.  They were used to kill horses in battle. Learning to hold off with one of these fine handguns can be done.

[gr8ful]

If you are not going to shoot over 50 yards why not just try a 6 o'clock hold to compensate, hold at the bottom of the kill zone and plunk em through the boiler room.  Practice at 50 and anthing closer will be an easy chip shot.  Or try some Corbon 225gr DPX HPs they shoot low in my Ruger.

[gcrank1]

You will have no pressure problems with lead bullets bein' squeezed down from .454 to .451.

[Frank V]

Gcrank1 is correct. At the low pressures we are dealing with in a Colt you won't notice any difference. I've loaded .454 dia. bullets for a long time & usually get better accuracy with them.
  I'm glad your point of impact is coming to where you like. When I shoot off sandbags with a handgun, I grip the gun firmly in my right hand, cup the gun in my left hand & push/pull just as I would shooting offhand. I then push the back of my left hand into the sangbags & try to not let any of the gun touch any part of the sandbags. I find I get very little difference in point of impact between shooting off sangbags & shooting offhand this way. I don't grip the gun hard enough to cause tremors, just hard enough to steady it.
   Sounds like you are getting on the right track.
Good shooting.
Frank

[poorcountrypreacher]

Earlier I said:

>>>I don't think my shooting technique is the problem. I've been shooting Contenders for years and have killed a dozen or so deer with one. This gun shoots high no matter how I hold it; others have shot it with the same results. <<<

I will have to eat a little crow for that statement; my technique seems to be at least 90% of the problem. And the other 2 shooters that shot high with my gun didn't know how to shoot a single action either. After shooting a lot more and trying different loads and bullets, I'm starting to realize that everything I learned from shooting the Contender is all but useless with the SAA. I've tried a number of different grips and sand bag techniques and now most of my loads are grouping low. I shot some light loads with 200g lead bullets and they are nearly a foot low at 25 yds. I've gotten different POI with the XTP loads depending on my hold; the last group I tried was a couple inches low and right. This was using a grip and technique that would be similar to what I'd be doing hunting. I wasn't using a sandbag; just tried the grip I like best and rested my left hand on my knee while sitting in a chair.

So I've gotta develop a load I like and then figure out a grip the will make it usable. I think I'm gonna focus on cast bullets around 255g and see if I can find something that size that I can get to shoot to POA. I do think I can work out something that I'll be able to use without having to change the sight, though I'm not sure I can come up with anything that will make these 200g bullets useful.

So what kinda bullet do you smart guys recommend that I try? I sent an email to Montana Bullets, but haven't gotten a reply back. They have a wide range of cast bullets available, and there is a lot of good info on his web site. He offers bullets with a BHN of either 15 or 22. He has both Lyman and RCBS bullets that weigh 255g with a BHN of 15 that look like they ought to do what I want. Here is a link to his website:

http://www.montanabulletworks.com/45_Colt.html

I'm sure there are plenty of other bullet makers that offer good bullets, and I'm wide open to any suggestions.

Thanks for all the help you guys have given me. This has been a fun project already.

[gcrank1]

Now that you have changed your hold and are shooting that low you might try to find a hold that splits the difference?  ,
It is hard to have to change holds for different bullet weights and/or loads, thats why I usually find a weight and load that shoots for how I hold mine. Like you now, Ive had a supply of bullets that needed some 'front sight' held above level with the back to hit, but after a few sight in shots to get used to it I could burn them up having fun. They still hit somewhere, find the sight picture to get you there. Kentucky windage and Tennessee elevation is good practice.
BTW, I found that holding consistently is best managed by gripping with my gun hand and cocking with the off hand so I didnt have a different hold shot to shot from thumb cocking with the gun hand.

[poorcountrypreacher]

LOL, thanks Crank! Yea, I need to split the difference and find a grip that will hit the target. I think I can do it; just gotta get time to work on it. Been looking around tonight to try to figure out what bullet I want to try. I'll let everyone know what I wind up with and how it works.

[poorcountrypreacher]

Just an update on the POI issues - I've been able to get the 200g bullets to center on POA by reducing the powder charge down to pipsqueak levels. I couldn't find a really light listed load for Unique, but I did find a very low starting load for Universal and duplicated it. At X grains of Unique, it centered around the bullseye, but about a 4" group. At X+1, it produced a very nice 1.5" group that was centered vertically, but about 2" right. I made up some loads that were X + .5, and I hope they will keep the improved accuracy and center on the bullseye. I didn't take time to set up the chrony, but they ought to be in the 750 fps range. It would be great if I can make these 200g bullets at low velocity into a good plinking and practice load, and then figure out a good hunting load with the heavier bullets that will shoot to the same POA.


I ordered some 255g cast bullets made from the RCBS 82050 mould, and I am hopeful of getting a good load out of them. They are gonna be sized at .454 and I sure hope they are gonna be more accurate than the .452 XTP bullets.

I always wanted a SAA, and it seemed like it just had to be a .45 to be "authentic," whatever that means. Now I kinda wish I had bought a .44 Special. But Paladin did ok with a .45, so maybe I can work it out.

Thanks for all the help.