Author Topic: Bullet Springback??  (Read 1201 times)

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Offline gjn

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Bullet Springback??
« on: June 22, 2011, 02:03:25 AM »
I have a 41 LBT mold for a 250 WFN-GC and using straight linotype they weigh 238 with gascheck and LBT blue lube. The mold size is .412 and I have run bullets thru my Redding Saeco lubsizer using sizing dies in .411, .410 and .409. I find the bullets consistently measure .001 to .0015 over the sizer die measurement. I doubt the sizers are all off so i was wondering if there is such a thing as bullet springback or some other explanation that would account for the size difference. Thank you.

Offline BUGEYE

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Re: Bullet Springback??
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2011, 04:03:13 AM »
since lead is a dead metal, I would say no.  but there may be something going on that I'm not aware of.
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Offline gjn

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Re: Bullet Springback??
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2011, 07:47:50 AM »
Linotype is composed of the following...lead 85%, antimony 13% and tin 2%.Not sure if that would make a difference.

Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: Bullet Springback??
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2011, 07:51:53 AM »
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Offline gjn

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Re: Bullet Springback??
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2011, 08:41:31 AM »
I did check my dial caliper to make sure that wasn't the problem and it was reinforced by the bullets not chambering due to being to large for the chamber throats in several Rugers,S&W's and a Freedom Arms(which I know are chambered tight). The .409 finally did the trick with the bullets measuring .410.

Offline shakey

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Re: Bullet Springback??
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2011, 09:53:07 AM »
The alloy is not "dead" and some degree of springback will occur depending on the hardness, alloy, and maybe other things. I am sure Veral can give you a more specific answer when he gets around to it.

Shakey

Offline .22-5-40

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Re: Bullet Springback??
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2011, 11:57:38 AM »
Hello, gjn.  Yes lead-alloy..at least not the "pure" stuff does indeed have springback.  While I will be the first to admit to sizers being off..I have a few of those myself, When I order a bullet reducing die fron Corbin..I always specify the dimensions to be based upon pure lead.  This way, by trying differen't alloys..I have a bit of leeway on bullet dia.  Now this springback isn't much..in the range of .0005" to .0008".  Not nearly as much as a thou.

Offline Veral

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Re: Bullet Springback??
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2011, 07:46:50 PM »
  Lots of  interesting error in the above posts, which I'm going to leave in place and shoot all down with this one.
 
  The springback you are getting is real.  Part of it is the bullet and part is from the dies expanding as the bullet is pushed in and brought back out.  In other words.  If you had the die out where you could measure it, pushed one of your hard bullets in, and measured the die, you'd find the dies outside diameter would be approximately the same amount larger as your bullets are oversize.

  Ever hear of Newtons law? For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. -- If a fly lights on a railroad track, the track will bend down where he is setting, an amount relitive to his weight vs the rail road tracks strength.   When you drive your rig down a super expressway, the road sags under your rig then comes back up behind you.  Ditto when you walk across a concrete floor of any thickness, or a wood floor.  The amount of sag in any of those cases is easily measured with high precision instruments.  Few machinest have a clue of how important this fact is to their livehood and skill, but it counted high to me during the 25 years which I rebuilt high precision metal working machinery.   When I was working to real close tolerances, I had to wait for up to a half hour after handling metal for the hand temperature to stabalize so any warp would come out of the part before taking measurements.

  Newtons law applies to your bullets and dies, your reolading press frame, and your firearms, which stretch and bulge every time you drop the hammer.  The cylinders in your auto engine bulge and shrink back with every ignition of the gas, even if you are punching it up to 100 MPH.

  Lino comes to full hardness quite a bit quicker than quenched WW alloy, with both reaching about the same hardness in their appropriate times.  With either though, when you have this problem, cast for only about an hour at a time.  If you are quenching to improve hardness, pull your bullets from the water immediately, dry them well and size while they are soft.  While soft, bullet diameter will be very close to  ACTUAL sizer diameter, which certainly isn't as stamped on many dies..

  I have have measured this spirng back thing going  well over .002 thousandsth of an inch.  It will be worse with large diameter bullets, whcih mean the sizer die walls are thinner and weaker, and less with smaller diameter bullets which leave a thicker sizer die wall.  The most severe springback I've had is with heat treated high speed babbit metal which reached a hardness of close to 40 bhn, and would CLEANLY penetrate 1/2 inch steel out at 100 yards when shot from a 30-06 at full power, by the way.
Veral Smith

Offline gjn

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Re: Bullet Springback??
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2011, 06:02:36 AM »
Thank you and quite interesting.! I can see my sizer die collection is going to grow substantially. I can confirm the measurements of the firearm(bore diameter,chamber throats,etc), I can confirm  the size I need the bullet to be (diameter,nose length,etc) but when it comes to sizing the bullet to the right diameter its a matter of running it thru what you hope is the right size sizer die and measuring what you have. If its not right the only adjustment is another sizer die. Ouch $$$ Thanks again for your help.

Offline anachronism

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Re: Bullet Springback??
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2011, 06:06:32 PM »
Except- I feel you're over-analyzing the sizing process. Sizing isn't about numbers, it's about bullet fit. All you really need to do is size the bullets snugly to the throats. The throats should be slightly larger than the bore, where the bullet will swage down slightly to fit the rifling. You really don't need to size a cast bullet down to the fourth decimal. Also consider this, as soon as you fire the revolver, the cylinder & barrel will heat, and their dimensions will change too. While we're at it, the bullet dimensions will also change slightly just by simply sitting in a hot chamber until it's fired. I'd recommend that you just follow the basic guideline regarding bullet sizing, and be happy. The gun will shoot.

Offline Veral

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Re: Bullet Springback??
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2011, 09:47:46 PM »
  A bad thing about being technical minded is that one can get rambling with too much information for someone having a different kind of mind.  I did it above not to tell people they have to jump through a quarter mile of hoops but so they understand the many variables.  Once one understands them, sizing can be quite simple.

  My standard recommendation for almost any cast bullet gun is to shoot the bullets as fat as will chamber easily.  Fitting this way is as simple as falling off a log for many guns.  The hardest bullets to fit right will be those with heavy drive band outside the case, which reach well out into the throats of revolvers.  My WFN's are the biggest issue  in this respect.
Veral Smith

Offline gjn

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Re: Bullet Springback??
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2011, 12:12:00 PM »
I'm a big fan of the WFN and they can be a challenge at times and thats what I found with the 41 250-WFN I was using. Started with a .411 sizer and worked my way down to the .409 before they would chamber.On the other hand the effort is well worth it and once it all comes together there is nothing like them as far as i'm concerned.

Offline Veral

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Re: Bullet Springback??
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2011, 06:57:12 PM »
Precisely the principle.  Thank you.
Veral Smith