A Fine Example Of The Continuing Demonization Of The South

[subdjoe]

Some of you here rail "It's over, get over it!" at those who try to lay out that there was more to the War than "Slavery" as the fifth grade textbooks say.   Well, this is an example of the attitudes and reeducation that continues after 150 years.  I've said it before, if the North would stop shooting, the South would stop fighting. 

Boeing's Threat to American Enterprise
When major firms move to the South, it's usually a harbinger of quality decline. Why let that happen?

By THOMAS GEOGHEGAN

Conservatives are in an uproar that the general counsel of the National Labor Relations Board has filed an unfair labor charge against Boeing. It seems the president of Boeing was unwise enough to blurt out that his company would move a production line to South Carolina as payback for past strikes by machinists in Seattle. It's a dead bang violation of the National Labor Relations Act, even if it comes as a surprise to Republicans and many other Americans.

Section 7 of the Wagner Act, passed in 1935, states that all workers can engage in concerted activities without reprisal. The president of Boeing said, in effect: You exercise those rights and we're moving. Companies have long done such things, of course, but CEOs aren't usually so gaffe-prone as to say so.

The Boeing case may show that labor is so out of mind that CEOs have forgotten what they can or cannot say. It would have been easy enough for Boeing to move the production line to South Carolina and let the workers in Seattle draw the conclusion. There is little bar to a runaway shop if the CEO is careful with his public statements.

Yet the Boeing case has a scarier aspect missed by conservatives: Why is Boeing, one of our few real global champions in beefing up exports, moving work on the Dreamliner from a high-skill work force ($28 an hour on average) to a much lower-wage work force ($14 an hour starting wage)? Nothing could be a bigger threat to the economic security of this country.

We should be aghast that Boeing is sending a big fat market signal that it wants a less-skilled, lower-quality work force. This country is in a debt crisis because we buy abroad much more than we sell. Alas, because of this trade deficit, foreign creditors have the country in their clutches. That's not because of our labor costs—in that respect, we can undersell most of our high-wage, unionized rivals like Germany. It's because we have too many poorly educated and low-skilled workers that are simply unable to compete.

We depend on Boeing to out-compete Airbus, its European rival. But when major firms move South, it is usually a harbinger of quality decline. Over and over as a labor lawyer in the 1980s and '90s, I saw companies move away from Chicago, where the pay was $28 an hour, to some place in South Carolina or Louisiana where the pay was about half that. While these moves aggrieved me as a union lawyer, it might have consoled me as an American if those companies went on to thrive globally.

But too often, alas, it was the beginning of the end, as it was for Outboard Marine Corporation, where I once represented workers. In the 1990s the company went from the high wage union North to the low wage South and was bankrupt by 2000. There are reasons workers in the North get $28 an hour while down in the South they get $14 or even $10. Adam Smith could explain it: "productivity," "skill level," "quality."

Here is yet another American firm seeking to ruin its reputation for quality. Why? To save $14 an hour! Seriously: Is that going to help sell the Dreamliner? In terms of the finished product, the labor cost is minuscule: $14 in hourly wage, at most. It's incredible that conservatives claim such small differences in labor cost would be life or death to Boeing. It's not labor cost but labor skill that is life or death to the survival of Boeing, never mind pilots and passengers.

If the history of runaway shops proves anything, it's that many go "South" in more than one sense of the word. If that sounds unfair to the South, it is union busting that has inflicted the real unfairness in the region: income inequality and inferior schools.

At this moment especially, deep in debt, we cannot afford to let another company like Boeing self-destruct. Boeing is not a product of the free market—it's an extension of the U.S. government. Over the years, our taxpayers have paid to create a Boeing work force with exceptionally high skills. That work force is not just an asset for Boeing—it's an asset for the country. Why should the country let Boeing take it apart? Every American should be rooting for the NLRB's general counsel, as the board itself has not yet found a violation.

Most depressing of all, Boeing's move would send a market signal to those considering a career in engineering or high-skilled manufacturing. It is a message that corporate America has delivered over and over: Don't go to engineering school, don't bother with fancy apprenticeships, don't invest in skills. No rational person wants to take on college or even community college debt to come out and work on the Dreamliner—which should be the country's finest product—for a miserable $14 an hour. If a single story in the news can sum up the reasons for America's global decline, it's the decision to build a Dreamliner that will gut the American dream.

Mr. Geoghegan, a lawyer in Chicago, is author of "Which Side Are You On? Trying to Be For Labor When It's Flat on Its Back" (Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 1991).

[williamlayton]

First of all I disagree with the author of this piece.
Some folks do not realize that labor markets differ because on the cost of living.
Me thinks he just wants to keep the work in Washington---which I don't blame him.
To compare wages in a area of less cost of living and say it is because of less skill is just whizzing in the wind.
I have worked in areas of this country where the cost fliving was higher and was paid more than working here in Houston. Quality of work was the same but I was not compensated enough to make a difference in the cost of living.
Joe, I really think this guy is just being an arse. Then again if someone calls me a red-headed stepchild I don't have to buy into it. Let them call you anything they want--it don't make it true.
These folks out there are west coaster--fruits and nut---they are not Yankees.
Blessings   

[SHOOTALL]

William GMC heating and air equipment came from NY to your town and grew the lawyer who wrote the above was / is full of BS IMHO. He sees his customers going away booho for him. Unions and govt. have sent alot of jobs south out of the country or over seas . Unions abuse what skills they have learned at the expence of the company by holding companies hostage.

[BUGEYE]

I had some good friends at Eastern airlines that lost their careers because of a union.

and Joe, the north does not shoot all the time, but I've been dodging southern snipers since I moved south in 69.

[subdjoe]

First of all I disagree with the author of this piece.
Some folks do not realize that labor markets differ because on the cost of living.
Me thinks he just wants to keep the work in Washington---which I don't blame him.
To compare wages in a area of less cost of living and say it is because of less skill is just whizzing in the wind.
I have worked in areas of this country where the cost fliving was higher and was paid more than working here in Houston. Quality of work was the same but I was not compensated enough to make a difference in the cost of living.
Joe, I really think this guy is just being an arse. Then again if someone calls me a red-headed stepchild I don't have to buy into it. Let them call you anything they want--it don't make it true.
These folks out there are west coaster--fruits and nut---they are not Yankees.
Blessings

Willy, the guy isn't a "left coaster" but a Chicago lawyer.    And yes, he is full of it, and his assertion is not true.  But you are either missing the point I try to make or are deliberately ignoring it. 

My point, again, is that this kind of garbage is still taught by northern interests and is still widely believed in the north.  This is just a recent public example.  If he had said something even hinting that turning a company over to blacks would be turning it over to a "less-skilled, lower-quality work force" likely no paper would dare to publish it.  And if one did have the balls to publish it, it would likely be forced to shut down because of boycotts and lawsuits. 

[SHOOTALL]

subdjoe , please stop posting this stuff. Us Southerns use that BS to our advantage when all the yankee snow birds come south in winter . You really don't think all those signs along the interstate saying "KEEP VA GREEN or some other state is refeering to trees do ya ? 

[Buckskin]

Why on earth you would think what comes out of a Chicago Union lawyers mouth would be anything but horse apples is beyond me.

Although it has nothing to do with skills, I have noticed that the contractors that I deal with in the south are a lot slower at their jobs than their counterparts in the north... Maybe it's the heat...

[SHOOTALL]

Maybe its your choice of contractors 

[williamlayton]

Joe
I didn't miss the point---I did ignore it.
You wear your feelings on your sleeve. The vast majority of people outside the South don't think or say these things.
Blessings

[subdjoe]

Joe
I didn't miss the point---I did ignore it.
You wear your feelings on your sleeve. The vast majority of people outside the South don't think or say these things.
Blessings

Ignored it and tried to divert the thread to your own purposes.

And does 'wearing (my) feelings on (my) sleeve" invalidate them or the observation?  Care to back up your claim that the 'vast majority of people outside the South don't think...these things"?  They may not say them.  But if you look at how people in the South are generally portrayed in media and entertainment, and are honest about it, you see that the bigoted stereotype this guy spouted is fairly common.

[subdjoe]

Why on earth you would think what comes out of a Chicago Union lawyers mouth would be anything but horse apples is beyond me.

Although it has nothing to do with skills, I have noticed that the contractors that I deal with in the south are a lot slower at their jobs than their counterparts in the north... Maybe it's the heat...

Again, if he had said those things about blacks there would have been national outrage.  But because he said it about southerners, well, that is just fine. 

[BUGEYE]

Joe, if you think yankees just sit around talking about rebels all day, you're wrong.
I never gave it a thought until I moved south and got sniped.

[subdjoe]

Joe, if you think yankees just sit around talking about rebels all day, you're wrong.
I never gave it a thought until I moved south and got sniped.

Lord,  where the hell did you come up with that???

[BUGEYE]

Joe, if you think yankees just sit around talking about rebels all day, you're wrong.
I never gave it a thought until I moved south and got sniped.

Lord,  where the hell did you come up with that???

read your first post.  you said if the north would stop shooting, the south would stop fighting.
the yankees couldn't care less that you're so bitter.

[subdjoe]

Not seeing anything to support your claim that I said yankees just sit around talking about rebels all day.

However, now pay some attention here, the way southerners are portrayed in the media, especially entertainment, reinforce a view of southerners as lazy, ignorant, and shiftless.  Does that mean people, especially northerners think about nothing else all day?  No.  Not just no, but HELL NO!.  Did I say "yankees just sit around talking about rebels all day"?  The answer again is not just no, but HELL NO. Did I even hint that yankees just sit around talking about rebels all day/  Same answer.

And, again, if that guy had made a comment like that about blacks or women or just about any group besides southerners it would be front page news with every minority special interest group you can name up in arms about his bigoted, racist, sexist, every-other-ist intolerant attitude and calling for his head.   Where is the usual outrage? 

Oh...

Right.....


The south, because it once had slavery (like all of the antebellum US), the south is evil and has earned any slurs against it.

The real pity is that some of you don't recognize the bigotry and intolerance in that guys statements.

[us920669]

The guy is so full of bull it's hard to know where to start.  Notice that $28 is average pay in Washington, but $14 is starting pay in SC.  Of course it's a lot lower, will probably get much closer to $28 as the workers gain experience.  And to claim that something that requires as much finishing as an airplane is not labor-intensive is just ridiculous.

He is not so much a Yankee or even a Chicago lawyer as a labor lawyer, his whole life dedicated to protecting parasites.  He is living in another age - the law he cites is even from 1938.  I think Joe has a very good point.  The piece is shot full of condescension and assumptions of Southern inferiority.  When we drove to Atlanta we passed a huge BMW factory.  I don't think that brand is in the toilet. 

[GatorDude]

We get to see the Pacific Northwest on COPS all the time.  It isn't all that.  They've got lots ignorant people.  Now, I'd love to see higher wages all over the South.  But, first, we need jobs all over the South. 

[williamlayton]

The whole country needs jobs.
The governments job is not to create them. People need to create them.
Then again--we go thru these periods.
Blessings

[BUGEYE]

Joe, from the rant that started the first post, it seems as though you think yankees are constantly plotting against you.
the truth is, when you blow up about slavery posts, it's kinda like picking up a stick and poking a chained up dog.  it's sometimes fun to get you riled.

[SHOOTALL]

Joe needs to realize also that often when a company moves South they offer the "good workers " a chance to move also . They work for the same wage and not have to pay union dues, sell their home for a high price and buy a equal or larger home in the South for less money . They spend less on food, clothes , vehicles and govt. funding ( taxes). They have set the standard for quality and wages . Most of these peple enjoy being able to excel not being bound to union BS qouaters.
 Consider why industry started in the north , there was little else for them to do nothing else really as far as labor. Yes when industry run on water power that made a difference but that no longer exist with wheeling elec. So in the South industry finds a willing work force that is independent of unions and each person is willing to do their best.

[Buckskin]

Being from the north, I can honestly say the north/south division only exists in the south. Nobody up here ever talks about it. By it I mean the war, slavery, the south/north rivalry.  And as for myself, I don't blame businesses for moving their operations south to escape the union thuggery.  Although Scott Walker is making it a lot more comfortable for businesses here in Wisconsin and is creating jobs.  So I don't think Harley will be moving anytime soon...

[BUGEYE]

Being from the north, I can honestly say the north/south division only exists in the south. Nobody up here ever talks about it. By it I mean the war, slavery, the south/north rivalry.  And as for myself, I don't blame businesses for moving their operations south to escape the union thuggery.  Although Scott Walker is making it a lot more comfortable for businesses here in Wisconsin and is creating jobs.  So I don't think Harley will be moving anytime soon...

EXACTLY.

[SHOOTALL]

The gov. is a smart man. Most N/S stuff is good natured ribbing . BUT when either side striks a nerve in someone they seem to enjoy the picking.

[SHOOTALL]

Being from the north, I can honestly say the north/south division only exists in the south. Nobody up here ever talks about it. By it I mean the war, slavery, the south/north rivalry.  And as for myself, I don't blame businesses for moving their operations south to escape the union thuggery.  Although Scott Walker is making it a lot more comfortable for businesses here in Wisconsin and is creating jobs.  So I don't think Harley will be moving anytime soon...

EXACTLY.

You must not move on large circles .

[Buckskin]

Being from the north, I can honestly say the north/south division only exists in the south. Nobody up here ever talks about it. By it I mean the war, slavery, the south/north rivalry.  And as for myself, I don't blame businesses for moving their operations south to escape the union thuggery.  Although Scott Walker is making it a lot more comfortable for businesses here in Wisconsin and is creating jobs.  So I don't think Harley will be moving anytime soon...

EXACTLY.

You must not move on large circles .

 I travel all over the country for work, do a lot in the south.  And the only time these subjects comes up is when I'm talking to a southerner and it is everytime I cross the Mason-Dixie...  I try and talk about hunting or fishing or weather or anything and it always comes back to the north/south thing, the Civil War, slavery, etc... And I just nod my head and listen to their rants, I think it makes them feel better when a Yankee is willing to listen.  I really don't mind but think it's kind of funny...

[subdjoe]

I see a lot of "well, I only hear about it in the South or from southerners." Well, DUH!  New Englanders or Ohioans are not the target of the stereotyping, so of course they won't notice or comment on it.  It is the people downstream that get the feces dumped into the stream.

And all those comments still ignore my point - that it is just fine to stereotype southerners as lazy, ignorant, and stupid, but if someone were to publish something like that substituting "black" for "southern" there would be a lot of social, politically correct, outrage at the bigotry. 

Heck, here in o, so tolerant, diverse, and inclusive California I see some of it at re-enactments.   In general the Confederate re-enactors get put back farthest from the gate, from any grandstands, and from the sutlers.  Hell, at one site the park staff didn't tell us until Sunday morning that the water in the water buffalo that they had brought in wasn't potable.  Potable water was available at a spigot about 300 yards away next to the federal encampment.  I don't think the organizers are even aware that they do it year after year.   

[SHOOTALL]

Being from the north, I can honestly say the north/south division only exists in the south. Nobody up here ever talks about it. By it I mean the war, slavery, the south/north rivalry.  And as for myself, I don't blame businesses for moving their operations south to escape the union thuggery.  Although Scott Walker is making it a lot more comfortable for businesses here in Wisconsin and is creating jobs.  So I don't think Harley will be moving anytime soon...

EXACTLY.

You must not move on large circles .

 I travel all over the country for work, do a lot in the south.  And the only time these subjects comes up is when I'm talking to a southerner and it is everytime I cross the Mason-Dixie...  I try and talk about hunting or fishing or weather or anything and it always comes back to the north/south thing, the Civil War, slavery, etc... And I just nod my head and listen to their rants, I think it makes them feel better when a Yankee is willing to listen.  I really don't mind but think it's kind of funny...

Keep in mind the M-D line is not N-S as some northern states reside below it , maybe some yanks have talked about it !

[Buckskin]

Being from the north, I can honestly say the north/south division only exists in the south. Nobody up here ever talks about it. By it I mean the war, slavery, the south/north rivalry.  And as for myself, I don't blame businesses for moving their operations south to escape the union thuggery.  Although Scott Walker is making it a lot more comfortable for businesses here in Wisconsin and is creating jobs.  So I don't think Harley will be moving anytime soon...

EXACTLY.

You must not move on large circles .

 I travel all over the country for work, do a lot in the south.  And the only time these subjects comes up is when I'm talking to a southerner and it is everytime I cross the Mason-Dixie...  I try and talk about hunting or fishing or weather or anything and it always comes back to the north/south thing, the Civil War, slavery, etc... And I just nod my head and listen to their rants, I think it makes them feel better when a Yankee is willing to listen.  I really don't mind but think it's kind of funny...

Keep in mind the M-D line is not N-S as some northern states reside below it , maybe some yanks have talked about it !

Well if that is the case they thought the were southerners!!!

[Buckskin]

And all those comments still ignore my point - that it is just fine to stereotype southerners as lazy, ignorant, and stupid, but if someone were to publish something like that substituting "black" for "southern" there would be a lot of social, politically correct, outrage at the bigotry. 

Sorry to burst your bubble, but any white (usually middle-aged white male) group can get the same treatment and never an eyebrow raise.
That's life, get over it.....  I still don't get why you care what a union lawyer has to say about anything...

[BUGEYE]

I'll shut up. I'm afraid Joe is gonna get apoplexy.  I can just see his face turning red, his neck veins throbbing, slobber dripping off the corner of his mouth. have a drink and a smoke and calm down.

Actually, I get a kick out of you and Little Willy trying to twist what I say and totally ignore my point.  I know you guys are not as dense as you are pretending to be here.

okay, we're funny guys.  it WAS about slavery.  ask your veep stephens.