Ron Paul introduces bill to legalise pot,

[ironglow]

  I suppose this gal thought she "had a right" to stuff her carcase with whatever poison she could beg, borrow or steal.

 
http://www.live5news.com/story/14973134/police-baby-died-from-morphine-in-breast-milk

   We should be so kind to dopers...
   

[Matt]

Well from the article one would assume that the mother, and I use the term loosely, will be getting what she has coming to her. Now, is it a tragedy that the child died? Yes it is, but at the same time I would bet the child is much better off now. With you being a Christian, I would think you to would believe that the child is better off as well. The state taxpayers are better off, as they will not have to foot the bill. Don't get me wrong, I understand that there is a value to human life, but when you consider the shape this world is in and what that kid would have to go through growing up, it seems like God's mercy to me.

But what does this have to do with the OT?

Matt

[BUGEYE]

some people say that pot doesn't affect you like alcohol.  so if it's legalized will there even BE penalties for it's misuse.  I smoked a joint in 70 or 71 and I was a danger on the road going home.
when oncoming traffic got close, I would realize that I was in their lane and have to correct.
the next day I tried to do some yard work and I'd catch myself leaning on my rake staring off in space.
from experience, it's dangerous.

[ironglow]

Well from the article one would assume that the mother, and I use the term loosely, will be getting what she has coming to her. Now, is it a tragedy that the child died? Yes it is, but at the same time I would bet the child is much better off now. With you being a Christian, I would think you to would believe that the child is better off as well. The state taxpayers are better off, as they will not have to foot the bill. Don't get me wrong, I understand that there is a value to human life, but when you consider the shape this world is in and what that kid would have to go through growing up, it seems like God's mercy to me.

But what does this have to do with the OT?

Matt

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Perhaps that little Kaylee girl in Florida is better off now, but we shouldn't be trying to second guess God ! We should let Him decide if Kaylee or this other tot would have been better off adopted.
  This opinion preordains that dope use should be "understood" by the general population...and that population should make allowances for it.  If your brother gets killed by a doper..hey understand..your brother had to pay.. for the doper's play..
      Sorry; I don't believe that way...

  "What does this have to do with the OT?"  ... other than it being "sorcery", I don't know, you tell me..

[magooch]

I wonder how quickly some folk's concept of unlimited freedom would change if their children, or grandkids are introduced to pot and its cousins.  Would they still have this liberal/libertarian view of freedom if their wife is stabbed by a whacked out meth head who is out wandering the streets. 

I'm for freedom as much as anyone, but everything is subject to common sense and moderation.  There's a difference between scratching your butt and tearing a hole in it.

[yellowtail3]

On the plus side, looks like the vote here at GBO is 2-1 in favor of freedom over hysteria & prohibition. That's good.

[ironglow]

On the plus side, looks like the vote here at GBO is 2-1 in favor of freedom over hysteria & prohibition. That's good.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Quite a "spin job" there Yellow..  
     One could have been more balanced and said." the vote is 2-1 in favor of legalization".  By wording it as you did you lose a bit of credibility (IMO)..

  I just bet there are some neighborhoods where the legalization would get a 4-1 vote...

[Heather]

I guess the point that most people do not seem to consider is that even though drugs are illegal, PEOPLE STILL DO THEM! Your wife, kid, brother, etc. still has the chance of getting killed by a whacked out drug addict. The penalty for the crime is usually the same with or without the drug involvement.  Robbery is robbery and murder is murder.  It doesn't matter if drugs or legal or illegal, an addict will still kill for its next fix, and low life scum will still get behind the wheel intoxicated.  It is how it is and no amount of laws are going to change that. All we can do is punish the offenders.  I believe steeper penalties would cut down some things, but by no means everything.

What legalizing drugs will do is cut down the tax burden exponentially when we no longer support those through the jail and prison systems for simple possession charges.  Let's give people a chance to live their lives the way they see fit.  If consuming drugs leads them to crime, THEN we punish them through our legal system. Simply possessing or consuming anything should not be criminal as long as I hurt no one else. There are many of folks who smoke pot their whole lives and never harm a soul.  Why should those people run the risk of jail time for peacefully possessing a plant in their own home off of public roads and to no harm to anyone?

When buying and selling drugs isn't illegal then we cut down on the criminal element. When gangsters aren't running an underground drug industry, and it is a legal business imagine how much cleaner our streets will be. Heck we could put them out of business and practically eliminate the war on drugs and the billions we unsuccessfully spend on it. Most importantly we restore the message that we have God given rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I can't think of a right more fundamental than what I do to my body!

[BUGEYE]

Heather, if we legalize pot do we legalize cocain, heroin, ecstacy and meth?
maybe longtime smokers are different but a first time smoker is a menace on the road. been there, done that.
turning loose a flood of legal dope on the market is a mistake in MY opinion.
if I made the laws, the penalty for dealing would be so severe that the suppliers would have a hard time spreading their poison.

[Heather]

Heather, if we legalize pot do we legalize cocain, heroin, ecstacy and meth?
maybe longtime smokers are different but a first time smoker is a menace on the road. been there, done that.
turning loose a flood of legal dope on the market is a mistake in MY opinion.
if I made the laws, the penalty for dealing would be so severe that the suppliers would have a hard time spreading their poison.

I do not believe that the Government has the right to control ANY SUBSTANCE that one chooses to ingest. Roads are STATE AND FEDERALLY owned, so they have the right to control someone driving on their roads under the influence of ANY substance. Funny thing about legal dope and illegal dope is that they are essentially the SAME DOPE, just there would be no penalty for using responsibility and no billions of tax dollars spent housing criminals that are only guilty of possessing a controlled substance. LIke I said in my last post, wait until someone commits an actual crime before punishing them.  If they are going to kill for dope do you think that dope being illegal will stop them? NO! Quit controlling what substances people choose and I see many benefits. Natural selection comes to mind as a benefit of letting society handle themselves. 

[ironglow]

  Heather;
  You do seem to have a settling effect here..
   See guys,  how a lady can come along settle a bunch of scrappy old dogs down !   
 
  Really, I guess what troubles many of us is the "slippery slope" effect.
       
       Most of us have lived long enough to have seen the situation where you give a group extra rope, and sure enough, a fair amount will end up hanging themselves...or somebody else..     It's not the hanging of THEMSELVES that trouibles us the most..

[BUGEYE]

I wonder how many more drug babies would be dropped on society.
we had a foster daughter in 89 that had fetal alcohol syndrome.
free flow of drugs is wrong in MY opinion.

[nw_hunter]

Heather, if we legalize pot do we legalize cocain, heroin, ecstacy and meth?
maybe longtime smokers are different but a first time smoker is a menace on the road. been there, done that.
turning loose a flood of legal dope on the market is a mistake in MY opinion.
if I made the laws, the penalty for dealing would be so severe that the suppliers would have a hard time spreading their poison.

I do not believe that the Government has the right to control ANY SUBSTANCE that one chooses to ingest. Roads are STATE AND FEDERALLY owned, so they have the right to control someone driving on their roads under the influence of ANY substance. Funny thing about legal dope and illegal dope is that they are essentially the SAME DOPE, just there would be no penalty for using responsibility and no billions of tax dollars spent housing criminals that are only guilty of possessing a controlled substance. LIke I said in my last post, wait until someone commits an actual crime before punishing them.  If they are going to kill for dope do you think that dope being illegal will stop them? NO! Quit controlling what substances people choose and I see many benefits. Natural selection comes to mind as a benefit of letting society handle themselves. 

MATT!.........You and your children are very fortunate to have a wife and Mother with SO much common sense!

[Matt]

Heather, if we legalize pot do we legalize cocain, heroin, ecstacy and meth?
maybe longtime smokers are different but a first time smoker is a menace on the road. been there, done that.
turning loose a flood of legal dope on the market is a mistake in MY opinion.
if I made the laws, the penalty for dealing would be so severe that the suppliers would have a hard time spreading their poison.

I do not believe that the Government has the right to control ANY SUBSTANCE that one chooses to ingest. Roads are STATE AND FEDERALLY owned, so they have the right to control someone driving on their roads under the influence of ANY substance. Funny thing about legal dope and illegal dope is that they are essentially the SAME DOPE, just there would be no penalty for using responsibility and no billions of tax dollars spent housing criminals that are only guilty of possessing a controlled substance. LIke I said in my last post, wait until someone commits an actual crime before punishing them.  If they are going to kill for dope do you think that dope being illegal will stop them? NO! Quit controlling what substances people choose and I see many benefits. Natural selection comes to mind as a benefit of letting society handle themselves. 

MATT!.........You and your children are very fortunate to have a wife and Mother with SO much common sense!

I know.... Thanks
Matt

[nw_hunter]

I wonder how many more drug babies would be dropped on society.
we had a foster daughter in 89 that had fetal alcohol syndrome.
free flow of drugs is wrong in MY opinion.

We had drugs across the counter back in the 50's, and Grandparents didn't have to do the roll of parents back then.
 

[yellowtail3]

Simply possessing or consuming anything should not be criminal as long as I hurt no one else. There are many of folks who smoke pot their whole lives and never harm a soul.  Why should those people run the risk of jail time for peacefully possessing a plant in their own home off of public roads and to no harm to anyone? ...
I do not believe that the Government has the right to control ANY SUBSTANCE that one chooses to ingest. Roads are STATE AND FEDERALLY owned, so they have the right to control someone driving on their roads under the influence of ANY substance. Funny thing about legal dope and illegal dope is that they are essentially the SAME DOPE, just there would be no penalty for using responsibility and no billions of tax dollars spent housing criminals that are only guilty of possessing a controlled substance. LIke I said in my last post, wait until someone commits an actual crime before punishing them.  If they are going to kill for dope do you think that dope being illegal will stop them? NO! Quit controlling what substances people choose and I see many benefits. Natural selection comes to mind as a benefit of letting society handle themselves.

Excellent posts, Heather...  are you single?

MATT!.........You and your children are very fortunate to have a wife and Mother with SO much common sense!

Oops... guess not. Sorry, Matt! (and congrats)

Carry on, Heather; you should post more often

[us920669]

I do not use drugs or encourage others to, but people obviously do, lots of them.  The choice is between allowing this to occur in a controlled manner or throwing the field open to some of the most dangerous criminal syndicates ever.  Our War on Drugs has corrupted governments all over the world and unleashed a low intensity war on our southern border, not to mention alienating vast segments of our population.  It has led to the militarization of our police, routine use of SWAT Teams and dynamic entry and an inmate population unrivaled anywhere else on earth.  Zero tolerance and minimum sentencing have perverted our justice system, and the unrestricted use of RICO and asset forfeiture has turned our courts into cash boxes for government at all levels, often on highly dubious grounds.  Most of the people running for president lately have admitted to casual drug use in their youth.  If the luck of the draw had landed any of them in prison, does anyone think their career development would have proceeded as it did?

The horrors outlined in the prohibitionist posts above are very real, but it looks to me as though the evil is in the war, not the drugs.  Leaving aside the constitutional or the humanitarian aspects, locking up vast numbers of people for self-destructive behavior is simply too expensive for America in the 21st Century. 

[Doublebass73]

I voted for individual liberty. Trillions of our tax dollars have been spent on the "War on Drugs" yet the same amount or more people get high than before the "War" was started. Apparently politicians have learned nothing since prohibition.

[Junior1942]

I do not use drugs or encourage others to, but people obviously do, lots of them.  The choice is between allowing this to occur in a controlled manner or throwing the field open to some of the most dangerous criminal syndicates ever.  Our War on Drugs has corrupted governments all over the world and unleashed a low intensity war on our southern border, not to mention alienating vast segments of our population.  It has led to the militarization of our police, routine use of SWAT Teams and dynamic entry and an inmate population unrivaled anywhere else on earth.  Zero tolerance and minimum sentencing have perverted our justice system, and the unrestricted use of RICO and asset forfeiture has turned our courts into cash boxes for government at all levels, often on highly dubious grounds.  Most of the people running for president lately have admitted to casual drug use in their youth.  If the luck of the draw had landed any of them in prison, does anyone think their career development would have proceeded as it did?

The horrors outlined in the prohibitionist posts above are very real, but it looks to me as though the evil is in the war, not the drugs.  Leaving aside the constitutional or the humanitarian aspects, locking up vast numbers of people for self-destructive behavior is simply too expensive for America in the 21st Century.

Thanks for maybe the best post ever on this subject.

[Doublebass73]

I do not use drugs or encourage others to, but people obviously do, lots of them.  The choice is between allowing this to occur in a controlled manner or throwing the field open to some of the most dangerous criminal syndicates ever.  Our War on Drugs has corrupted governments all over the world and unleashed a low intensity war on our southern border, not to mention alienating vast segments of our population.  It has led to the militarization of our police, routine use of SWAT Teams and dynamic entry and an inmate population unrivaled anywhere else on earth.  Zero tolerance and minimum sentencing have perverted our justice system, and the unrestricted use of RICO and asset forfeiture has turned our courts into cash boxes for government at all levels, often on highly dubious grounds.  Most of the people running for president lately have admitted to casual drug use in their youth.  If the luck of the draw had landed any of them in prison, does anyone think their career development would have proceeded as it did?

The horrors outlined in the prohibitionist posts above are very real, but it looks to me as though the evil is in the war, not the drugs.  Leaving aside the constitutional or the humanitarian aspects, locking up vast numbers of people for self-destructive behavior is simply too expensive for America in the 21st Century.

Thanks for maybe the best post ever on this subject.

X2

[billy_56081]

The same pot heads will be driving stoned on the road after this passes as are now. Now I would hope there would be a valid test the police could use to see if the driver is impaired. I started this poll and voted yes to legalise. Do I like pot, no it makes me sleepy and paranoid. Not for me, but I know a lot of folks who seem to do well on it.

[XD40SC]

http://www.ehow.com/info_8102608_pros-cons-drug-legalization.html
http://www.dakotavoice.com/2010/10/considering-legalizing-dangerous-recreational-drugs/

[SHOOTALL]

Heather, if we legalize pot do we legalize cocain, heroin, ecstacy and meth?
maybe longtime smokers are different but a first time smoker is a menace on the road. been there, done that.
turning loose a flood of legal dope on the market is a mistake in MY opinion.
if I made the laws, the penalty for dealing would be so severe that the suppliers would have a hard time spreading their poison.

I do not believe that the Government has the right to control ANY SUBSTANCE that one chooses to ingest. Roads are STATE AND FEDERALLY owned, so they have the right to control someone driving on their roads under the influence of ANY substance. Funny thing about legal dope and illegal dope is that they are essentially the SAME DOPE, just there would be no penalty for using responsibility and no billions of tax dollars spent housing criminals that are only guilty of possessing a controlled substance. LIke I said in my last post, wait until someone commits an actual crime before punishing them.  If they are going to kill for dope do you think that dope being illegal will stop them? NO! Quit controlling what substances people choose and I see many benefits. Natural selection comes to mind as a benefit of letting society handle themselves. 

Last time I checked the fed and state was we the people so WE own the roads , its up to US who uses them and what is allowed . I agree with you though , WE should make sure this is remembered.

[ironglow]

I wonder how many more drug babies would be dropped on society.
we had a foster daughter in 89 that had fetal alcohol syndrome.
free flow of drugs is wrong in MY opinion.

We had drugs across the counter back in the 50's, and Grandparents didn't have to do the roll of parents back then.
 

      While I disagree that illegal drugs were sold as such "across the counter", I presume the writer is referring to certain cold medicines or nasal inhalers..which only a devious mind would have utrilized as an illegal drug.
   In any case, there were not nearly so many grandparents being forced to raise the children of their own 'zombie, children ! A documentary I viewed a couple days ago, set forth the conclusion that this pheonomenon is a direct result of drug saturated youth.

   So; let's examine the difference between the 50s and today.  Why, if drugs were freely available in the 50s, did we have no such widespread addiction problems ?
       IMO..it was the rebellious generation of the 1960s..those who threw Christianity and it's values aside, who led the slide down the slippery slope toward total degradation.
   Since my teenage & young years were of the 50s, I along with some few others here can speak more authoritatively about that era, since I "lived there and did that" !   Allow me to give you a sketch of the 50s..my view, very small town/rural.
      The major "drug" was alcohol and I tasted some back in the 50s (but not since).   Marijuana was used by people in "show business"  .. e.g...musicians &  movie stars.  Nearly everybody went to church, either regularly or sporadically, even those who did not attend church felt obliged to live by Christian principles.  Obvious breaking of any of the commandments were considered a source of shame.  Drunkeness was a disgrace..as was porn, gambling (outside the horse races), and certainly any drug use.  I do think a few old spinster ladies were secretly drinking vanilla flavor concentrate (what 98% alcohol) ?
  As a teenager, I heard rumors about asprin & coke (cola) making one delerious, but never tried it..never could see any logic in purposely crippling one's mind..even if temporarily.  Teenagers, at least most of them, strove to imitate adults rather than children, simply to demonstrate their maturity and soon be accepted as an adult.  Incidently; most all adults acted like adults..not drunks, lechers, pot-heads and took care of their children.
  I find it curious that many folks scoff at the old  "Leave it to Beaver", "the Waltons' and "Ozzie & Harriet" TV shows...  Except for the Clevers and the Nelsons being more affluent, my home life as well as my now wife most of our friend's home lives, pretty well mirrored these families..especially the Walton's..

[SHOOTALL]

There were many drunks and week end drunks in this country enough that booze was out lawed . Then it was allowed and things have gotten worst. Some say pot was out lawed due to dupont .
Things cycle , we might end it for a time but it always comes back

[beerbelly]

There were many narcotics and amphetamines sold over the counter before the government put them on the banned list in the late fifties and early sixties.

[BUGEYE]

I don't recall drugs being OTC in the 50s.   now we hear a lot about kids getting into their parents booze supply.  so I guess the kids will be able to get into moms meth.
we don't need to lock up people that smoke pot. hit'em with huge fines.
when you convict a dealer, put that sucker away for life.

[magooch]

How would you like to work in construction, or any other hazardous type of job, next to folks who use drugs?  How would you like your kids being driven around in a school bus with a driver who uses?  If drugs are legalized, the problems we have now are going to look like small potatoes. Consider the wonderful benefits of legal alcohol.  Take that times millions and you get the results of legalized drugs. 

I have seen first hand what happens to people who think they can use dope responsibly.  All of them are dead, or in prison and they aren't in prison for just using dope; it's from their minds and judgement being altered.

[us920669]

Good posts - I don't want to make light of anyone's tragedies.  I've known people who got shot, and not by criminals, but I still support the 2nd Amendment.  You can find an expert who will tell you whatever you want to hear, and I think most of those medical marijuana laws were designed to fail, with no control at all. Once the novelty wears off and people get tired of getting stupid they will start to walk away.  I've gotten a taste for these single malt Scotch whiskeys, but I only seem to need a new bottle about every six to nine months, so I don't think I have a problem, and I sure don't need Elliot Ness crashing through the door to tell me to stop.

Guys like IG grew up an the America of unlocked doors and community pride, and that's great, but there was a dark underbelly back then too.  You must have had good parents who protected you from it.  We may get back to that in 20 or 30 years, but right now we have to live in the country we have.  That guy working beside you may well be a stoner- maybe he chews some sort of tree bark we never even heard of.  Seems to me he would be easier to keep track of if he got his stuff above ground, not at the end of a pipeline with untold dead bodies and corrupt politicians in its wake.

[BBF]

What is the penalty in Thailand for having/selling drugs?
Hint: Bangkok Hotel