Remington firearms

[diggler1833]

Where are you at Swampy?  I'm not on here much anymore, but am still stationed at LeJeune. I might just have a few years of competitive shooting and marksmanship instruction under my belt and would be more than happy to shoot with you some day.

I too choose the 700 as my rifle of choice, but mostly because it gives me a platform to build off of, not becasue I'm in love with the factory stuff.

With all of these magical factory sporter/varmint 1/4MOA rifles out there I'm amazed I've never seen one show up at any of the matches I've been too.

I guess I'll just patiently wait on Swampy's next review of his 1/2MOA 870.

[Lloyd Smale]

let me tell you little story about your so called match quality corelock ammo. I too have had decent luck, read that decent, not match quality with it. A couple years ago my buddys gunshop went out of bussiness and he called me and said come over and take what you want of what left. It was mostly ammo he had and alot of it was corelocks. there was 8 boxes of corelock 280 165 grain. I knew i wouldnt use those almost round nosed 165s but figured id pull the bullets use the powder for fertilizer and reuse the brass. Heck it was free. Well i got pulling bullets and got curious as to what powder they used. So i shot a couple accross the chrono to get a ball park velocity figure. I shot three and there was 130 fps differnce between the fastest and slowest. I averaged the results and figured out they were probably using 4831. I began pulling bullets and checked each box seperately in case they were differnt lots. I wanted to find out why there was such a big extream spread. Weighting all 20 rounds from each box i found the worse box had a differnce in 6 full grains from the lightest to the heaviest charge and the best box had a differnce of 3 full grains. Now if this would have been tenths of a grain i wouldnt have thought twice but 6 FULL GRAINS!!! this wasnt a freek bad batch either as there were 4 differnt lot nos. of ammo.  I had a box federal 150 grain red box 308s there and just out of curiousity pulled those bullets and found a simular stick powder. I never did chrono them to see which it was but there was .2 of differnce in weight between the heaviest and lightest charge. Makes a guy wonder how that corelock ammo does even close to as good as it does. So if im going to use a base line to compare my handloads its surely isnt corelocks. I might try some fed premium or some of the black box ww or even some of the newer premium rem but anyone with a press and a box of corelocks can produce much better ammo without even trying then remington does with there standard corelock ammo . Reloads not as good because of who is loading them? youd have to be about the biggest oaf that ever loaded to swing charge weights worse then remington does. At least with there 280 ammo. theres a good reason they sell that stuff at walmart for 15 bucks a box

Nothing wrong with reloads I reload to save money.  The thing is you need a benchmark for accuracy and factory ammo is the benchmark.  I'm constantly having folks come to me with firearms problems both function and accuracy.  My first question is how does it shoot with Remington factory ammo.  If they don't know how it shoots with factory ammo I tell them to buy some and get back to me.  90% of the time there's nothing wrong with the gun.  Factory ammo is vastly superior to what it was even 10 years ago.  Reloads are only as good as the person that assembled them, and frequently that's not so good. 

My advise is to not over think things.  Therein lies most of our troubles.  This hobby is very simple and easy.

[Lloyd Smale]

watch out swampy the marines are comming!!

Where are you at Swampy?  I'm not on here much anymore, but am still stationed at LeJeune. I might just have a few years of competitive shooting and marksmanship instruction under my belt and would be more than happy to shoot with you some day.

I too choose the 700 as my rifle of choice, but mostly because it gives me a platform to build off of, not becasue I'm in love with the factory stuff.

With all of these magical factory sporter/varmint 1/4MOA rifles out there I'm amazed I've never seen one show up at any of the matches I've been too.

I guess I'll just patiently wait on Swampy's next review of his 1/2MOA 870.

[Hooker]

Lloyd I have always used Federal Gold Medal Match ammo for a baseline  in my newly acquired rifles.
My Marlin 1895 done very well however with 405 and 300 gr corelocks also my Mini 30 seems to like them as well. But as general rule I have not found Remington corelocks or their extended range ammo very accurate. All most any reasonably well put together hand load will out perform corelocks factory ammo.  Aside from using Remington brass in my 45/70 and 7.62x39 Remington load components have shown to be quite poor performers in the accuracy dept. This not a dig at anyone just personal observations.

Pat

[diggler1833]

Not a super huge fan of Remington ammo either, or components.  Bought 500 virgin cases for my .260 about a year ago and was actually surprised that 90% of the cases were within a grain or two of each other.  Flash holes were a different story as probably 40% of them visually looked out of center.  Then came the part where seating primers became a real task as 30% of the primer pockets were so out of round that they sheared off parts of the primer cups themselves.  Fortunately I had a dillon swage tool.

[parkergunshop]

Hooker and Lloyd,

I agree with your analysis of factory ammo.   What Swampman does not seem to understand that there is a reason why Lloyd has that fantastic loading room.    My shop is not nearly as neat as Lloyds, but I have a substancial investment in loading equipment and dies (over 50 sets of reloading dies) having narrowed my equipment down to those that suit me over the years as a reloader over 40 years now.   A big Redding compound press and and Old compound C&H press for the really heavy duty stuff for example.

Points on reloading:
1.  I inspect each case before anything is done to it after any needed cleaning is done.
2.  debur and chafer the necks before sizing.
3.  lubricate and size and wipe the lubricant off twice.
4. Seat primers one at a time using a Lee hand priming tool.
5.  Visually check the seating on each primed case.
6.  Set my Redding powder measure using a Pacific scale, for the final setting throw and measure at last five trial loads on the scale before filling any cases
      using the powder measure.
7.  Fill the cases with powder one at a time, getting a feel from the powder measure handle as to how the powder is metering through the measure.
8.  Once 20 rounds are in the loading block, visually check each and every case to see that the powder level is the same in each case. 
      Any questionable ones are dumped and repowdered and checked again.
9. seat bullets checking for the same feel for pressure when seating the bullets to avoid loose/worn brass case necks.
10. visually check each round for bullet delpth, or any damaged necks from bullet seating.
11. Go to the range and test any new loading data loads for accuracy.

My size dies are preset for neck sizing only and my seating dies are set so the bullet is just shy of touching the lands when chambered in each individual rifle.

Ball powders meter through the powder measure much better than the big stick powders like 4831, you have to rethrow more charges when using stick powder to keep the power loads in the case consistent.   If I can get a good accurate load with ball powder, I prefer to use it for that reason.

If you believe that Remington or any other ammunition makers takes the pains that I do when loading ammo, then I have a piece of Swamp Land at the North Pole for you Swampman, its for sale.

The only consistent 1/4 inch guns I have owned have been full blown benchrest rifles, never seen a factory rifle capable of 1/4 inch groups for five shots at 100 yards period.  One may exist but I have not seen it.

[Swampman]

I've been doing all thit since the mid-1960s.  I weigh all my rifle charges though.  A powder throw is ok for pistols.

[Graybeard]

The only consistent 1/4 inch guns I have owned have been full blown benchrest rifles, never seen a factory rifle capable of 1/4 inch groups for five shots at 100 yards period.  One may exist but I have not seen it.

For the most part I agree with your statement quoted above. The CONSISTENT part is the killer. Factory rifles just can't do that and I don't care who the manufacturer is.

Now I have had several Remington M700 varmint rifles in .223 that will shoot five shot quarter inch groups SOMETIMES. I developed the loads for them after much shooting to determine what the rifle wanted and got lots of five shot groups in the .2s and .3s but I also got a lot in the .4s and .5s and even from time to time 0.75" type groups. If ya wanted to say consistently under three quarters of an inch rather than one quarter I've had several. I've never had one that was a consistent quarter inch shooter.

I weigh all my rifle charges though.  A powder throw is ok for pistols.

Yer lack of knowledge of all things shooting is showing again swampy. Benchrest competitors don't weight their charges they throw them from a measure and no one shoots smaller groups than top rated bench rest competitors.

I've experimented extensively and find that with the guns I've owned I can actually shoot smaller groups with thrown than weighted charges. I've proven it with several of the best shooting guns I've owned. The benchrest shooters know it.

[parkergunshop]

My benchrest powder measure is a Belding & Mull, it has a micrometer adjustable drop tube that allows you to record the settings and go back to it without having to use a powder scale once the initial charge is determined.    With a drop tube you can be assured of consistent charges by volume, but it requires that you use a powder funnel in the case neck when pouring the powder from the drop tube into the case.   I only use it for benchrest loads for hunting loads my Redding measure is ok seldom have any issues with charges thrown with it.

I have fired five, five shot groups that averaged less than .2  tenths of an inch and still lost the match by a few thousanths.  Try that with factory loads of any brand.

[Swampman]

I'll keep weighing mine.  None of the powders I use would work in one of those things anyway.

[pastorp]

I've been doing all thit since the mid-1960s.  I weigh all my rifle charges though.  A powder throw is ok for pistols.

Let me get this straight Swampy, you were and accomplished reloader when you were 10 years old?wow........

Well when I was 10 I always put salt on my bullets because I shot my game from so far a distance I had to salt them to keep them from spoiling before I could get to them...honest.... I jokes

Swampy, you better go take your meds!

Regards,

[Swampman]

I was reloading before I was 10.  My brother taught me when he came back from Vietnam.  He had a Model 600 in .243 and we reloaded for it at the kitchen table.

[Lloyd Smale]

greybeard made a good point and it could possibly explain some of swampys high opinion on his guns. Ive got many guns that have shot a tiny group of two. Ive seen a 5 shot 1/2 groups out of a gun one day and the next group go 2 inch. Now if i loved to brag i guess i could tell everyone that that gun is a 1/2 moa shooter and be honest because it did. Now take that 1/4 inch gun and sit the same day with the same ammo and shoot 10 5 shot groups at a 100 yards and average them and come back and tell me your gun is a 1/4 inch shooter. Come back and even tell me its a 1/2 inch shooter and buddy im going to tell you your full of ###!!! Maybe a custom bench rest gun but not a factory varmit rifle and surely not a factory sporter weight hunting rilfe.

[parkergunshop]

Swampy,

Great that you started so early, however you make blanket statements without qualification that show a lack of knowledge when it comes to reloading and you miss state the accuracy of factory rifles and never provide details.

Here is how I test my rifles and reloads.

.308 Norma Mag H450 powder, 165 grain Sierra, 4 consecutive groups  .532, .617, .750, .555  velocity 3018 FPS
.308 Norma Mag H450 powder, 150 Nosler BT, 2 groups .762, .572  Velocity 3320 FPS

.338 Winchester Mag,   H450 powder,  200 grain Speer 2 groups .322, .348   velocity 2881 FPS

Yes, those of us who are serious maintain a reloaders log and provide details and post actual groups on our reloading room walls to back up our statements.

[Swampman]

I've been doing all that since 1977.  Sadly most folks have no idea how good cheap factory ammo is.  They are still stuck in their outdated way of thinking.  Reloading is good for calibers that you can't find ammo for, or to save money.

Factory rifles and factory ammo are amazing.  You can tinker but rarely improve on them.

[pastorp]

Well Swampy post the groups....  say happy birthday to the good old USA. 

What's everyone doing for the 4th? Our local parade starts @ 10. It's only 7 here in the last frontier.

Enjoy your holiday everyone.

Regards,

[yooper77]

Everyone have a great fourth of July 2011!

Even the cheapest factory ammo is very expensive in my opinion. I am successful on hand loading 5 cartridges that are available almost everywhere. The 223 Remington, 243 Winchester, 270 Winchester, 7mm-08 Remington and 308 Winchester and I would never dream of buying factory ammo instead.

I hand load 5 cartridges which is either very expensive, hard and/or impossible to find factory ammo, so it’s a good thing I don’t need too. The 257 Weatherby Magnum, 270 Weatherby Magnum, 7x57 Mauser Ackley Improved, 30-06 Springfield Ackley Improved, and of course my favorite the 338-06 A-Square.

Years ago I have looked at Remington bulk core-lokt bullets, but passed on them and mostly use Hornady Inter-lock bullets as my standard cup and core performer.

Thompson Center Encore in 223 Remington, Remington 700 SPS in 22-250 Remington, Ruger M77 MKII in 270 Winchester, Weatherby Mark V Sporter in 7mm-08 Remington and Weatherby Mark V Ultra Lightweight in 338-06 A-Square are all great shooters with my hand loads and no tinkering was needed.

The other cartridges I have which are the 243 Winchester, 7x57 Mauser Ackley Improved and 30-06 Springfield Ackley Improved are built on German Mauser actions sporterized by a gun smith of my father’s choice before I was born.

The only brass I use for the above cartridges are:
223 Remington brass for the same

22-250 Remington brass for the same
(Was my father in-laws Remington 700 ADL I converted to SPS)

243 Winchester brass for the same

270 Winchester brass for the same and 7x57 Mauser Ackley Improved

308 Winchester brass for the same and 7mm-08 Remington
(308 Winchester is my friends Remington 788, no tinkering was needed)

30-06 Springfield brass for the 30-06 Springfield Ackley Improved and 338-06 A-Square.

257 Weatherby Magnum for the same.
(My friends Weatherby Vanguard, he buys the factory brass and no tinkering was needed).

270 Weatherby Magnum for the same.
(My friends Weatherby Mark V Ultra Lightweight, he buys the factory brass and no tinkering was needed).

yooper77

[Swampman]

I buy Core-Lokts for $14.95 a box in the fall.  You can get a rebate on that from Remington.

That's how I get my brass....

[pastorp]

Hay swampy, have you ever googles your screen name? You do know there is a real Swampman living in Florida don't you.  he's used that name for quite a while. Maybe you should change your handle to something original. 

Regards,

[Swampman]

The real Swampman is also known as the Skunk Ape he lives in this area.

[pastorp]

Ever meet him?

[Swampman]

A good friend of mine has.  A deputy and about 20 folks at an outdoor party just north of here did.  I've heard things that I could not explain, and I've spent thousands of hours in these woods.  I believe he exist.

[pastorp]

Swampy, every culture has legends about bigfoot type creatures. Yet there are no real evidence except footprints & sightings. Neither can be proved. I believe something exists but it's not flesh & blood.  have you ever met the strong man?

Regards,

[Lloyd Smale]

I got to say i believe in him as much as i do 1/4 inch remingtons anyway. 

[fastchicken]

Well, just look at the groups posted on the Faux KS thread, Unless those were at 400+ yards I'd call that a 1-11/2 MOA gun [ It was probably 600yrds ]. If I dropped the coin he did on a McMillan stock and Zeiss scope, I'd be embarrassed to show those, especially with all the 1/4 MOA guns floating around .

[Swampman]

It's not a factory rifle.  As I posted, it shoots a lot worse than it did right out of the box.  I fully expected that.  I doubt it will ever shoot the way it did when I bought it.

[fastchicken]

I guess that begs the question, if it shot so good out of the box why mess with it?. I thought the only rifles needing tinkering weren't Remingtons Seems like a lot of dough to be tinkering around with for an average group gun, but than again it's only money. Like my dad says "You never see an armored car following a hearse" spend it while you got it!

[Swampman]

It was the most accurate hunting rifle I've ever owned or seen.  I felt it deserved a better stock, scope, and mounts.  I fully expected that anything I did to it would hurt it's accuracy.  I was right.  Still those groups were shot with factory ammo from a scalding hot barrel.  I fired three 3 shot groups in about 3 minutes and all were less than 1".  The primers were cratering because of the heat.  This is my anywhere in the world kill anything rifle.  It will still outshoot 95% of the hunting rifles I've owned or sighted in for customers.  I can live with it.  I have little doubt that it will still shoot 1/4" groups if I let the barrel cool for 5 minutes between shots.

[Hooker]

These were the first shots taken with my handloads in my Remington. The rifle was sighted in with Federal GMM 168 gr factory ammo
First load tested, this gun was right out of the box even the trigger was left at factory settings.



Not to bad for new rifle and a starter load.

Pat

[pastorp]

As has already been said a couple of groups don't mean the gun will always do that. Keep a log & when you have averaged a 100 groups report back...........
 
Regards,