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Author Topic: Less powder, equal velocity  (Read 2965 times)

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Offline Charlie-SA

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Less powder, equal velocity
« on: June 27, 2011, 07:27:33 AM »
Interesting article by John Taffin in the last American Handgunner.  “Seatem Deep and Cheap”.  Basically, loading (tested .44 Special/.44 Magnum and .45 Colt) with less powder and seating the bullet to the outer band resulted in approximately the same velocity, less recoil and greater accuracy then with more powder and normal seating depth.  This was with 240 grain and 255 grain SWC type bullets and velocities around 850 fps.  Anyone try this?  Would it hold true with higher velocities? 
Charlie
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Offline myronman3

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Re: Less powder, equal velocity
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2011, 10:28:11 AM »
there are so many variables when it comes to loading your own ammo, too much to get into here.  i will advise ya though, experimenting this stuff is not for beginners.  and,  after all these years of taffin braggin about hotrodding guns, pushing them to their limit, i have to laugh that he is writing an article called "seat them deep and cheap".   
      all that being said, i dont load my own to push the limits.  if a 44 wont do what i want to do, i will get a 454.   i taylor my loads to do what i want them to do, and usually that doesnt involve pushing them to the maximum limit of what they were designed for.  a nice mid velocity load, that is economical, clean burning, and accurate is where it is at for me.  i get more shots per pound of powder and my firearms dont suffer the abuse.   i also find that i am a much better shot if i am not getting hammered every time i touch the trigger. 
     
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Offline myronman3

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Re: Less powder, equal velocity
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2011, 10:30:34 AM »
 another point i have to add, is do not read an article in a magazine, then set out and use their information.  entirely too many times they have printed stuff that will get you into trouble.   stick with load data from reputable companys like speer, hornady, nosler, etc.; they will not lead you astray.   
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Offline simplicity

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Re: Less powder, equal velocity
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2011, 10:45:11 AM »
I have been loading for the 500 smith ever since it has come out. I have exsperimented with alot of load to see what it's limits are. I have done some loads that were well over max (going past mx very carefully) and got absolutely no gain in velocity. Pretty much what it cam down to I just don't think it had the barrel to burn it or just wasn't the right combination of components.  th reason why I did this is after numorous different loading manuals have been produced  over the past years I have them from old to new. The older manuals were pretty true to wat they stated for gained velocitys. The neweranual i usually get a fair amount below the stated velocity according to my chrono with the same barrel length. Don't get me wrong but there are alot of varibles involved as well. As far as getting less recoil from the same velocity using the sam powder just combined in a smaller space . Well not possible can't happen no matter how you run the physics. Long story short like myronman stated unless you really know what your doing and what you need to look for stick with the stated data. If you need more punch move to a bigger caliber.
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Offline Charlie-SA

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Re: Less powder, equal velocity
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2011, 10:50:05 AM »
Don't reload and have intentions to start ;D  IIRC, a friend had given him some mild loads he created for his son and asked to try them.  Taffin found them to very accurate.  He did some experimenting and wrote of the results.  Just curious if anyone else had tried or read the article.
Charlie
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Offline Bigeasy

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Re: Less powder, equal velocity
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2011, 11:40:03 AM »
When you seat a bullet deeper, you cut down on powder space (make the case smaller, so to speak)  So yes, doing so, you should be able to maintain the same velocity with a reduced powder charge.  But a lot of questions come up, like what powder is being used (will a powders burning characteristics change with the "smaller case"?)  What is now a safe charge?, etc...  As stated by others, Accurate pressure testing by a recognized source would be needed, and besides, there are so many known target loads out there using small amounts of say Red Dot, or 231, that the savings would be miniscule.

 Reduced recoil?  Technically, yes.  Recoil is figured by factoring the weight of the bullet, the weight of the powder charge, the velocity of the bullet, and the weight of the gun.  While a powder charge a couple grains lighter, all other factors remaining the same, would result in less recoil, the difference would be mathematical only, and not something you would be able to tell by shooting.

Larry
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Offline Mikey

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Re: Less powder, equal velocity
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2011, 02:19:04 AM »
Bigeasy times two.
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Offline coyotejoe

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Re: Less powder, equal velocity
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2011, 12:20:44 PM »
I do go with "less powder for equal velocity" but I get there by using a faster burning powder. If I were looking for the absolute maximum speed I can get out of my .44 mag then that technique would not work. But I am happy with a 240 grain SWC at about 1200 fps and I can do that with 22 grains of H110 or just 12 grains of HS-6. I am in a situation of "enforced frugality" so for me it's a no brainer, I shoot 12 grains of HS-6. And I'm working with published pressure tested loads. And yes, that big difference in powder charge does make a noticeable difference in recoil and muzzle blast and flash. The reduction in powder charge from deep seating would be pretty minimal. I've tried that load, 12 grains of HS-6 in both .44 special and magnum brass and the velocity difference is minimal and groups from the longer brass are better.
John Taffin doesn't know his butt from a pickle barrel.
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Offline Hank08

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Re: Less powder, equal velocity
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2011, 07:03:32 AM »
Bigeasy and Cayote Joe times two.
H08
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Less powder, equal velocity
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2011, 08:32:40 AM »
I read the article , first he was looking to get a less costly load and not a hotter load . He did not say throw caution to the wind either. Third if I remember it was a pratice load not a full bore hunting load.
If people did not experiment with loads etc we would not have many of the rounds aval. today in handguns or rifles.
Note also some reloading data from powder companies and at least one manual R.Lee gives bullet weight not brand. Anyone who loads much knows not all bullet brands of the same weight have crimp groves in the same place thus the capacity of the case is different for each. Caution is good but to say never experiment makes little sense really. I had a load that was a 240 gr bullet clocking at around 1600-1700 fps out of a Super blackhawk. It wasn't an enomical load but it hammered rams. If I didn't experiment I would have never found it.
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Offline rockbilly

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Re: Less powder, equal velocity
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2011, 08:49:17 AM »
I totally agree with the comments made by Myronman2 and Bigeasy.  Back in the early 60s I was friends with a so-called expert on reloading, he convinced me there was only a tiny difference between a “hot load and an over load.”  He supplied me with a box of .his 44 mags that were supposed to be hot hunting loads; the second round I fired blew my Super Blackhawk up.  The cylinder split, pushing the frame forward rupturing the top strap causing the barrel to point down, the grips came apart resulting in a big cut on the palm of my left hand.  >:( >:(

This was an early lesson for me; I stick with the “BOOK” now when reloading.  If it doesn’t come from a reliable source, I don’t use it ::).
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Less powder, equal velocity
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2011, 09:56:52 AM »
That said there are loads that will show signs of over pressure in some guns before reaching max . I can't imagine what your friend loaded to blow up a Super Blackhawk like that but would suggest a double load not just a hot load. Poor pratices are just that. But to say all expementation is bad is to cut down all those who have given us better and more powerful rounds over the years.
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Offline Charlie-SA

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Re: Less powder, equal velocity
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2011, 10:35:22 AM »
Good points, Shootall.  Hence the title "Deep and Cheap".  I did mention the velocities quoted were on the mild side.  Upon reading again he did not mention less recoil, I mistakenly put that in.  And in hindsight, to create a hotter load (same bullet and powder) would require more powder and correspondingly less room to "deep seat" the bullet.
Anyway, good points regarding pressure, type of powder, etc., mentioned through out the thread for reloaders to consider.  Again, reloading is not something I'm interested in getting into.
Charlie
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Offline coyotejoe

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Re: Less powder, equal velocity
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2011, 06:07:42 AM »
I'm not opposed to sane and sensible experimenting but why go off the charts when the goal can be achieved more easily with tested and established data?
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Less powder, equal velocity
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2011, 06:29:03 AM »
That would depend on the goal . The 44 mag was off the charts .
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Offline rockbilly

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Re: Less powder, equal velocity
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2011, 09:29:40 AM »
Shootall.  To this day I don’t know what kind of powder or how much he used.  His only comment was, “the gun was inferior. I do know I was not the only one that had problems with ammo he loaded; several other people told me they also had problems with stuff he gave them.

I thought about his reloading practices many times since then, he had a portable bench that he would move into the living room, watch TV, eat, drink beer and play with the kids while putting ammo together.  In other words, he was not paying attention to what he put in the load.  One fellow told me he had loads that had no powder; we came to call all his ammo “TV Loads.”

Today, when I load, that’s all I do.  I prefer to be by myself with no distractions.
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Offline WyoStillhunter

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Re: Less powder, equal velocity
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2011, 07:02:12 AM »
I do not consider myself an authority on handloading by any stretch of the imagination.  But I am a thoughtful consumer of a wide variety of "popular press" print material.

Suffice it to say that people who write for a living have to keep coming up with new angles or gimmicks to talk about or publishers won't buy their article.  A prudent reader will recognize when a writer is working on the fringes in order to produce a story.  Some of these stories are quite interesting, some are foolish.

You just have to be discerning enough to realize the motivation of the writer was to sell the story to the publisher and NOT necessarily to share information that will make your life better.  Previous posts have added other good words of caution.  Most of us are well served by traveling the middle road, especially when it comes to reloading handgun ammo.

Happy Fourth everyone!
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Offline MePlat

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Re: Less powder, equal velocity
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2011, 04:58:18 AM »
If I am not mistaken it was non other than Veral Smith of LBT fame that mentioned loading bullets deep on cut back charges of powder to affect a quiter,  lower velocity load.
I have shot some 45 Colts that way with H110 and they did very well. 
Someone may want to send Veral an e-mail and see what he has to say on the subject.
I try to be very careful when reloading but at the same time I am not paralyzed with fear either.  I try to research everything as closely as I can. 
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Offline coyotejoe

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Re: Less powder, equal velocity
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2011, 07:18:45 AM »
Quote from: SHOOTALL on July 01, 2011, 06:29:03 AM
That would depend on the goal . The 44 mag was off the charts .

Quite right, if the goal is just for John Taffin to expose his ignorance yet again he hit the goal.
Seating a bullet to crimp over the front band or ogive rather than in the crimp groove makes a very negligible difference unless we are talking max loads.  Seating the bullet clear down in the case like the Russian Nagant probably would enable a significant reduction in the powder charge but the Nagant cartridge cases are about the only ones which would permit doing that.
When I make up "quiet loads" for my  45/70 I do fill most of the extra case capacity with a couple of 1/2" fiber wads, but seat the bullet normally, out close to the lands.
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Offline Mikey

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Re: Less powder, equal velocity
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2011, 08:26:08 AM »
Metplat:  I posted this issue on Veral Smith's Forum and asked him if he might wish to respond to the questions, and I hope he jumps in on it.  However, that being said, my post was right on top of one of his topics on short shot shell loads, which if I recall from reading that thread deals with similar issues.  You might be able to get some good information from that post on Veral's forum.  HTH.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Less powder, equal velocity
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2011, 08:43:07 AM »
Look at what happens as a round is fired . The powder starts to burn. The first peak in pressure is when the pressure reaches a point it moves the bullet. The second peak is when the powder is burned up and velosity of the bullet reaches its max. OR the bullet leaves the bbl.
Most stright case revolver rounds leave unburnt powder or a nice fire ball. Both are powder not used to increase bullet velosity. By seating the bullet lower the first pressure peak should be reached - either quicker with the same powder weight or close to the same with a reduced load. Depending on bbl length and amount of un burned powder it would seem that similar velosity could be reached . The question would be what powders are good for this and at what charge weight. And would safe presures be achived . Look at wad cutters they are often crimped over the bullet and in most cases they seat deeper than standard bullets . JT might not be off base .
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Offline MePlat

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Re: Less powder, equal velocity
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2011, 10:03:02 AM »
Ahhh Haaa.  I found my book by Veral Smith.  It is the third printing.  On pages 82 and 88 he addresses this very thing by recommending seating bullets backward with the base flushy with the mouth of the case (not necessarily light bullets either)I would say seating something like a LFN or a WFN deeper than normal and crimping over the ogive would be more than okay since infringement on powder space seated like that would be less than with the way he mentioned.  He called it a "boattailed wadcutter".
(Reason he developed the ogival wadcutter)
As I said I have done it with H110 and had consistant velocities with 340 LFN and WFN in the 45 Colt.
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Offline S.B.

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Re: Less powder, equal velocity
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2011, 03:22:15 AM »
Stopped taking American Handgunner several years back. Too expensive and many of Inchiro Nagata's photos caused me to pause(edited too much and changed actual appearance of firearms). Still have the highest respect for John Taffin, though.
Steve
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Offline painted horse

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Re: Less powder, equal velocity
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2011, 07:35:43 PM »
John Taffin is ignorant??? WOW....double WOW. Please send me the titles of some of your books and articles so I can be enlightened. Maybe a picture or two of the revolvers you have developed and the calibers available that you have created. I must have somehow missed them. Hey...this isn't Paco Kelly is it??? and you're just havin fun with us tourists??
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Less powder, equal velocity
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2011, 04:35:27 AM »
Quote from: coyotejoe on July 07, 2011, 07:18:45 AM
Quote from: SHOOTALL on July 01, 2011, 06:29:03 AM
That would depend on the goal . The 44 mag was off the charts .

Quite right, if the goal is just for John Taffin to expose his ignorance yet again he hit the goal.
Seating a bullet to crimp over the front band or ogive rather than in the crimp groove makes a very negligible difference unless we are talking max loads.  Seating the bullet clear down in the case like the Russian Nagant probably would enable a significant reduction in the powder charge but the Nagant cartridge cases are about the only ones which would permit doing that.
When I make up "quiet loads" for my  45/70 I do fill most of the extra case capacity with a couple of 1/2" fiber wads, but seat the bullet normally, out close to the lands.
If John is ignorant and the idea is BS then why do most warn aginst shooting bullets that for what ever reason have been pushed back into the case "to Far" or shorter than listed OCL ? It would appear John is on far better ground here.
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Offline S.B.

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Re: Less powder, equal velocity
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2011, 09:36:50 AM »
Quote from: painted horse on July 19, 2011, 07:35:43 PM
John Taffin is ignorant??? WOW....double WOW. Please send me the titles of some of your books and articles so I can be enlightened. Maybe a picture or two of the revolvers you have developed and the calibers available that you have created. I must have somehow missed them. Hey...this isn't Paco Kelly is it??? and you're just havin fun with us tourists??

Looked through the several replies to this thread and can't find what you are talking about? Who said John Taffin is ignorant?
Steve
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Offline painted horse

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Re: Less powder, equal velocity
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2011, 10:25:43 AM »


Looked through the several replies to this thread and can't find what you are talking about? Who said John Taffin is ignorant?
Steve

 
Well, maybe not exactly. Lets see.. "John Taffin doesn't know his butt from a pickle barrel"..another.."If the goal is just for John Taffin to expose his ignorance yet again he hit his goal" So I guess maybe you're right....I didn't see it.
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Offline S.B.

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Re: Less powder, equal velocity
« Reply #27 on: July 20, 2011, 02:47:22 PM »
Completely off topic but, I thought you reference was about me. Excuse me.
Steve
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Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: Less powder, equal velocity
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2011, 02:47:46 PM »
Id kind of like to know what you claim to be your level of experience if your calling John Taffin ingnorant. He was shooting and loading for sixguns probably when you were in diapers and has put more rounds down range then anyone on this forum and that includes you. He is a very honest man with not a lick of ego. If he says something id take it to the bank until i have concrete proof its not correct.
Quote from: coyotejoe on July 07, 2011, 07:18:45 AM
Quote from: SHOOTALL on July 01, 2011, 06:29:03 AM
That would depend on the goal . The 44 mag was off the charts .

Quite right, if the goal is just for John Taffin to expose his ignorance yet again he hit the goal.
Seating a bullet to crimp over the front band or ogive rather than in the crimp groove makes a very negligible difference unless we are talking max loads.  Seating the bullet clear down in the case like the Russian Nagant probably would enable a significant reduction in the powder charge but the Nagant cartridge cases are about the only ones which would permit doing that.
When I make up "quiet loads" for my  45/70 I do fill most of the extra case capacity with a couple of 1/2" fiber wads, but seat the bullet normally, out close to the lands.
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Offline Wyo. Coyote Hunter

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Re: Less powder, equal velocity
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2011, 03:51:21 PM »
 ;)  Well Said Lloyd...John has probably forgetten more than some of these experts know...He is one of the finest men I have met in many, many years...
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