Author Topic: St. Paul, MN police going over to the 9MM, dumping the .40. (Read 4309 times)

His lordship. · « **on:** July 04, 2011, 11:26:46 AM »

Just read that the St. Paul, MN police Dept. are phasing out their .40 S/W cal. Glocks and getting new 9 MM Glocks and Smith and Wessons. I used to have a .40 caliber CZ-75, hated the harsh snappy recoil of the .40, traded it off. The modern 9 MM cartridge is a capable round, all of my center-fire semi-automatics are chambered in it.

The police spokesman said the 9 MM was easier to control, I suspect that the risk of the muzzle flopping around and flinging .40 caliber bullets all over the place was an issue. He also said that they had not purchased new guns in 18 years and were worried about reliability. Nice to see others that appreciate the 9 X 19 cartridge as I do.

mechanic · « **Reply #1 on:** July 04, 2011, 12:03:24 PM »

Here they recently went from 9mm Beretta's to SW 40's. They just have to change things every now and then IMO to justify new weapons.

I still like my wheel guns in 357 and 44 mag., but then I ain't gettin' shot at (yet), or hopefully never.

Ben

mauser98us · « **Reply #2 on:** July 04, 2011, 12:14:39 PM »

I think other issues are in place,like political correctness. I will leave that for you to figure out.

Savage · « **Reply #3 on:** July 04, 2011, 01:00:04 PM »

Quote from: mauser98us on July 04, 2011, 12:14:39 PM

I think other issues are in place,like political correctness. I will leave that for you to figure out.

Yep, lot's of good sound reasons to switch to a less effective cartridge! Like--------------well------------uh-------it is kinder and gentler.
Savage

BBF · « **Reply #4 on:** July 04, 2011, 01:07:14 PM »

My choice would be 45 ACP.
I presume some of the "girl cops" find it rough on their manicure.

Yes I know the 45's magazines do not have the same capacity!
On the other hand you don't need two 45's slugs

Brett · « **Reply #5 on:** July 04, 2011, 03:32:49 PM »

The .40 S&W "snappy" in a full sized, metal framed CZ.... really? I have arthritis and I don't find the .40 all that punishing in my Tupperware M&P. Then again my concealed carry pieces are a 2" J-frame and a 9mm Kel-tec so to me the big .40 is a pleasure to shoot.

Graybeard · « **Reply #6 on:** July 04, 2011, 06:42:04 PM »

Quote from: Brett on July 04, 2011, 03:32:49 PM

The .40 S&W "snappy" in a full sized, metal framed CZ.... really? I have arthritis and I don't find the .40 all that punishing in my Tupperware M&P. Then again my concealed carry pieces are a 2" J-frame and a 9mm Kel-tec so to me the big .40 is a pleasure to shoot.

I agree. I don't find it all that snappy or particularly noticeable in my G27 or G22s. Of course I've been a serious handgunner all my life and have fired some heavy recoiling guns so it's hard to think of the little semiauto rounds as such a much in the recoil department.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #7 on:** July 05, 2011, 02:36:22 AM »

If the truth ever comes out my bet would be cost . Bean counters seldom face bullets .

BBF · « **Reply #8 on:** July 05, 2011, 05:36:17 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on July 05, 2011, 02:36:22 AM

If the truth ever comes out my bet would be cost . Bean counters seldom face bullets .

Add most other realities in life.

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #9 on:** July 05, 2011, 05:41:49 PM »

Aren't Glocks known for reliability? Folks are always dropping them from planes into active volcano's, extricating them from a lava flow years later wiping them down with water from a mud puddle and then shooting 947 mags through them with out any lube?

I ain't buying into the reliability crap. They want new shiny toys. The salesman made them a sweet deal on 9mm cause that is what they want shut of this month. Lord but for some honesty outta a public servant. Anybody read the paper? The state is BROKE, mayhaps some attention should be given to saving money.

Are the officers having a hard time shooting all the nogoodnics? I watch the news fairly regularly and have not heard of the truckloads of innocent bystanders shot. No one seems to be standing at the mic in front of city hall bemoaning all the perps walking around this morning because the patrolmen missed them all this weekend.

Like I said, tell the truth, I want a new gun. Just like I have to with the wife... on second thought. Those old S&W 40's are tough to shoot and they are getting old...

Old Griz · « **Reply #10 on:** July 05, 2011, 06:01:47 PM »

Let me know how I can pick up one of those crappy old guns.

williamlayton · « **Reply #11 on:** July 06, 2011, 05:36:51 AM »

I am not tapping for the 9mm---then again I don't care for the .40 at all or the .357sig.
There are others that I much prefer and the .45 is one.
The .45 is a more plesant range weapon to shoot than the .357sig or .40, IMO.
The .38 super is good--why not go back to .357 rollers---why not the 9x23 in a semi platform, which IS a .357 in a semi & perhaps better.
Blessings

rockbilly · « **Reply #12 on:** July 08, 2011, 08:58:30 AM »

William. I usually agree with you, but will have to say the Sig model 229 in .357 Sig is one of the best shooting guns I ever fired. It is dead on accurate, and aside from the muzzle blasts a pleasure to shoot. I shot completive for many years and come to love the .45 but it does seem to work on the old arthritis more than the .357. If I were still shooting today I think I would try the Model 229 as a center fire gun.

Dee · « **Reply #13 on:** July 08, 2011, 10:21:10 AM »

I have carried all calibers mentioned here, and have actually used the 357 magnum, and the 45acp to settle a couple of disagreements. HOWEVER, I really like the 40 caliber, and someone or several, I think have hit on, and around the REAL ISSUE. 9mm is a "world cartridge", and would assimilate into a "world police force" as well. I think this is the issue of the U.S. military going 9mm several years ago. Heaven forbid that a police dept. stay with an effective cartridge, when they can spend thousands on a less effective one such is the 9mm.
If an officer is so wimpy or weak that he, or she cannot handle a 40 cal. in something on the order of a Glock, then perhaps they would be better suited to driving a bread truck. Lord help them in a knock down, drag out, bar fight if the 40 cal gives them trouble.

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #14 on:** July 08, 2011, 07:24:37 PM »

[quote author=Dee link=topic=236775.msg1099341397#If an officer is so wimpy or weak that he, or she cannot handle a 40 cal. in something on the order of a Glock, then perhaps they would be better suited to driving a bread truck. Lord help them in a knock down, drag out, bar fight if the 40 cal gives them trouble.
I have often thought the same thing. Having no experience I have never expressed it though.

williamlayton · « **Reply #15 on:** July 09, 2011, 03:19:57 AM »

It's not, not being able to handle it---it is about shooting it to become competent.
A .45 is a pleasure as in the .357 and the 9x23---not so much the .40 or .357sig, for me.
The Sig is accurate, no doubt, but I like the Sig p220 in .45 over the Sig 239.
I even like the .41 mag better than the .40--for shooting.
Blessings

rockbilly · « **Reply #16 on:** July 09, 2011, 10:54:28 AM »

I have several Colts, two of which were competition guns accurized by Jim Clark (Benton, LA). They are fine shooters, I also have a 220 and a 245 Sig, both are excellent guns, but for me, I still prefer the model 239, I have both the .357 and .40 barrel but as I said, I prefer the .357.

I have many friends who are DPS troopers, Texas went to the .357 Sig several years ago. In talking to my friends, almost all of them have nothing but high praise for the .357. (Except a couple of die hard ex-Rangers. To them the .45 is the only gun, a tradition thing I suppose.)

As for the ability to handle a .45, I will never forget one of the first 2700 pistol matches I shot, on my left was non other than Jim Clark (a High Master), and on my right was a female Deputy from the Monroe, LA area, about 35-40 years old, she must have been all of 5 ft and likely weighed in the 110 range, she was a Master. (can't remember her name, but she was featured in the "American Rifleman" several times back in the mid-late 60s) I was so intimidated I put my first two .22 rounds in the dirt about 20 feet in front of my station. I was amazed at their targets each time we went down to check them, Jim had cut the X ring out, and she was close. She proved to me that a little woman can handle the "big" gun.

charles p · « **Reply #17 on:** July 09, 2011, 11:51:07 AM »

Probably can shoot at the range for half the cost of 40 cal ammo. Maybe it is a budget concern. When I was in the service we were issued 1911 in 45 cal. About ten years later we received Beretta 9mm pstols. I can certainly shoot the 9mm better. Never had to shoot either except at paper.

His lordship. · « **Reply #18 on:** July 09, 2011, 12:00:20 PM »

I forgot to mention the funding for the sale came from a police source that they keep, like a separate contribution for special needs. I was wondering myself as the state has financial problems.

I also have a Ruger GP-100 revolver in .357 magnum, which I consider one of the best handgun rounds ever invented and only use the .357 for hunting and 100 yard shooting, for regular pistol shooting I use .38 specials in it as the kick of the magnum is harsh. I once had a Colt 1911 in .45 ACP, another good cartridge that did not snap hard, but more of a push. Ammo was too expensive, sold the gun.

The pressure differences between the .40 and 9 X 19 are considerable in an example. I had 2 CZ-75's, 9 MM and .40 SW. The Czech engineers had to beef up the slide considerably in the front area due to pressure spike of the .40. I installed recoil buffers in both guns when new. After 700 rounds the one in the .40 was squashed flat and cracked halfway through, doing its job. The one in the 9MM was still looking great after 1,000 rounds, I considered getting a new buffer but it could have gone thousands of rounds more.

I had also read that the .40 S/W cartridge is not as accurate as the 9 MM. In my CZ's I found this to be true for awhile, after about 2-3 years the .40's ability to get good groups in my gun was respectable. The 9 MM was my go-to-gun for serious accuracy during that time.

My impression of the .40 at first was that is felt "Mean", the snap seemed more vengeful. It left me with the impression that it was intended for tearing someone up. When the police went over to it I could easily understand their rational for defending themselves against deadly felons. In such a deadly encounter I would much prefer a pump action 12 gauge shotgun with 00 buck or Foster slugs.

foxx1 · « **Reply #19 on:** July 09, 2011, 06:46:21 PM »

I think they should go back to the good old 357 mag. one torso hit with a 158 hp will get there attention .compare to multable hits with a 9 mm.

Old Griz · « **Reply #20 on:** July 10, 2011, 01:17:55 PM »

Police with .357 magnums? Don't try to mix government with common sense.

NickSS · « **Reply #21 on:** July 10, 2011, 11:32:18 PM »

I shoot a lot of both 9mm and 45 ACP every year but except for shooting borrowed pistols I have not shot either the 40 S&W or the 357 Sig much. I like the 9mm for three reasons. It is cheap, accurate and comes in some really small packages that are easy to carry yet still give much better service that either a 32 or 380. I like the 45 ACP because I like the 1911 colt pistol and know that a 45 is a better stopper in a gun fight. I regard the 40 S&W as a good compromise cartridge which is what it was developed to be. They wanted a round that was shorter and easier to control that the 10mm for FBI use and thus the 40 S&W. When I was a kid and young adult the big debate was hollow points for 38 spl for police use. Then it went to we need 9mms with 15 round mags so that we can match the bad guys fire power. Then the 9mm was too week to put a fellon down without shooting him 20 to 30 times so we need a bigger caliber so out cam the 10mm but it was too powerful so then came the 40 S&W (Short and Weak).

Actually my club provides a facility for all the area police to practice at for free. I have shot with lots of them and most are what I would refer to as barely proficient with their weapon not that I am a world class pistol shot but I usually beat the handily when shooting the same course of fire. So what police need is more marksmanship training to be able to place their shots where it will do the most good and the caliber of weapon will be of secondary importance.

Old Griz · « **Reply #22 on:** July 11, 2011, 11:34:35 AM »

Quote from: NickSS on July 10, 2011, 11:32:18 PM

I have shot with lots of them and most are what I would refer to as barely proficient with their weapon not that I am a world class pistol shot but I usually beat the handily when shooting the same course of fire. So what police need is more marksmanship training to be able to place their shots where it will do the most good and the caliber of weapon will be of secondary importance.

I have mentioned this before, years ago, and to make a long story short, a member of the Memphis Police Department wound up standing on the trunk of his police car, emptied his pistol at two felons in the back seat (one armed), inserted his extra mag and emptied that one into the back seat. I say "back seat" because after firing 31 rounds at very close range he failed to hit either one of them. The cop ran, and the two felons climbed out the back, now that the rear windshield was gone, and took off in the police car.

Now I know that fear and adrenaline played no small part in this, but in an emergency situation you fall back upon the level of your training. Evidently, this young lad needed more training!

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #23 on:** July 12, 2011, 02:24:25 AM »

Quote from: foxx1 on July 09, 2011, 06:46:21 PM

I think they should go back to the good old 357 mag. one torso hit with a 158 hp will get there attention .compare to multable hits with a 9 mm.

I believe the reputation of highest one shot stops goes to the 125 gr JHP with remington maybe first followed by winchester and federal.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #24 on:** July 12, 2011, 02:38:48 AM »

All should be able to agree that the 9mm is ammo dependent. It depends on what ammo is used as to effect it may have on the guy being shot. When anything is encountered that can alter the preformance of the bullet it can effect the out come in a negative way.
That said why would any one choose a bullet or weapon to shoot it if they consider worst case and it is lacking ? The only conclusions I can draw is cost or lack of understanding of the need. Or both. So what bullet are they using and what is its track record ? What is its failure rate etc.
I didn't care for a 9mm much other than at the range . I took classes with it and noticed that some who go in harms way used it. Most said it worked well enough if ammo was good and they did their job. What they liked was round count with gangs on the street , said its hard to mess up a mag change if you don't need to make it . Standing in front of a gang this makes sense.
But cost is still a deal maker .

Camba · « **Reply #25 on:** July 12, 2011, 02:05:11 PM »

I am kind of bias towards the 9mmP round. Other than that, the 40SW is a better round but what I see here is simply an effort to jump-start the economy. If that's what it is, then great.
Just my 2 cents.

Camba

reliquary · « **Reply #26 on:** July 12, 2011, 06:14:34 PM »

I retired from the Army about the time they were adopting the Beretta 9. The major reasons for the change from the venerable 1911 were: massive amounts of campaign and lobby $$$ by Beretta, pressure to standardize the pistol round to the NATO 9, and the soft recoil of the 9 (important for limp wrists).

My career was mostly in the Military Police, and I've maintained relationships with local PD's after retirement. Many of them went to the 9 and to the tupperware frames because the PDs did away with height/weight/strength standards in order to have a culturally diverse force. When they found that the 9s were marginal with most "politrically acceptable" projectiles, many departments went to the 10.

In the past few years, there have been several highly publicized shootings with the 10s (perps shot 15-20 times) that have caused much adverse publicity, which has caused some departments to re-think armament. There are too many possibilities to actually list.

Has anyone actually talked with someone from St Paul PD?

sidewinder319 · « **Reply #27 on:** July 12, 2011, 06:56:22 PM »

This is more PC stuff. I know of a police Dept. that allows smaller officers to practice with .22 pistols. I expect to see many of these PC Cop shops to issue "Air Softs" for street use.

Savage · « **Reply #28 on:** July 13, 2011, 08:17:39 AM »

Quote from: sidewinder319 on July 12, 2011, 06:56:22 PM

This is more PC stuff. I know of a police Dept. that allows smaller officers to practice with .22 pistols. I expect to see many of these PC Cop shops to issue "Air Softs" for street use.

Ain't it the truth!!! Sad, but true.

Savage

reliquary · « **Reply #29 on:** July 13, 2011, 10:11:30 AM »

I know of one PD who went to the Glock .40s several years ago, and issued hollowpoint ammo, but after one high-publicity shooting, they went to the FMJ flatpoint. Another PD issues the FMJ slugs and requires them to be on hand for shift inspection, but allows the officers to use personally-obtained HP once on duty. Another requires the in-the-gun magazine to be a 10-rounder, but allows the others to be hi-cap.

Once PC strikes, it's worse than a virus...totally eliminates common sense.

Most departments that I know of have gone to the Glocks because they are simple to operate; nothing is totally idiot-proof, but they're close...simply because most officers won't practice enough to be proficient with ANY firearms. Most of them shoot just enough to pass the required qualification course. I have never understood that mentality. If you are going to bet your life on any kind of tool, you should "get real good" with it, as far as I'm concerned.

Several of my friends and relatives are on various PDs and SOs...runs in the family?...and most of them carry some form of .45, mostly Kimbers. One with bad hands carries a HiPower 9 with Hydro-shoks. One on the state cops carries the .357 Sig issue gun and is ecstatic about it.