Author Topic: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?  (Read 5122 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ironfoot

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 547
Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2011, 12:25:48 PM »
Here is the provision for secession:

Subjoe said:
"Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
Now, since you insist that states could not leave, please provide the text from the Constitution that prohibits it.
Put up or shut up."
 
I say:
So what?
The Constitution provides for adding states, not for losing states.
Find a provision in the Constitution that provides for dissulution of the Union.
Put up or shut up.
(When Subjoe stops being rude, so will I.)
Here is a listing of the causes of the Civil War:
http://americanhistory.about.com/od/civilwarmenu/a/cause_civil_war.htm
It was about slavery.
Act the way you would like to be, and soon you will be the way you act.

Offline littlecanoe

  • Trade Count: (14)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2842
Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2011, 01:49:53 PM »
It was about slavery.

ironfoot,
I keep seeing this quote by those who would defend the Unionist. 
Growing up in KY, Lincoln was king due to his being born there.
Even in that environment we were taught through school that slavery was a secondary issue.
Only in recent history do I remember this point being held out as the primary point.

If the constitution and the governing thought of the day was that the Union was paramount I would think that Lee would not have stated that he could not join the Union army because he had to defend his "country", Virginia.
When I read letters from soldiers I see the resounding testimony, of the men who fought, that they were fighting for independence. 

I just can't see where the slavery argument is anything other than a modern ploy based on such observations as these.

ymmv,
lc

Offline subdjoe

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3036
  • Gender: Male
Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2011, 04:30:30 PM »
The 10th Amendment is very clear on the point that if the US Constitution does not prohibit an action by a state, then the state may engage in that action.

So yet again, please show the text in the Constitution that prohibits states from leaving. 

Or, if you think the Constitution is meaningless, tell us that.



Here is the provision for secession:

Subjoe said:
"Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
Now, since you insist that states could not leave, please provide the text from the Constitution that prohibits it.
Put up or shut up."
 
I say:
So what?
The Constitution provides for adding states, not for losing states.
Find a provision in the Constitution that provides for dissulution of the Union.
Put up or shut up.
(When Subjoe stops being rude, so will I.)
Here is a listing of the causes of the Civil War:
http://americanhistory.about.com/od/civilwarmenu/a/cause_civil_war.htm
It was about slavery.
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline williamlayton

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15415
Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2011, 07:19:56 PM »
Your wrong again Joe.
Life does not prevent--you keep going back to law and laws don't prevent.
WWII was illegal but it happened---you can't stop folks from trying---you can defend against and overcome it.
Now if you say that the South was moral in its every effort and reason for seceding I want to hear the justification for expansion of slavery.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline subdjoe

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3036
  • Gender: Male
Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2011, 08:08:44 PM »
Ah...so now the law and the Constitution don't matter!

I will agree...the War was illegal, the federal government had no legal authority to force states(states in the general sense of a political body) back into a union that their legislatures had legally broken away from.

The conditions of WWII were totally different from the conditions of the ACW.  Equating the two is like equating bananas and air conditioners.

Your wrong again Joe.
Life does not prevent--you keep going back to law and laws don't prevent.
WWII was illegal but it happened---you can't stop folks from trying---you can defend against and overcome it.
Now if you say that the South was moral in its every effort and reason for seceding I want to hear the justification for expansion of slavery.
Blessings
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline williamlayton

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15415
Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2011, 04:18:14 AM »
What about the moral issue of expansion of slavery Joe?
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline subdjoe

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3036
  • Gender: Male
Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2011, 05:49:17 AM »
What about the moral issue of expansion of slavery Joe?
Blessings

What about it?

 First, we have you unsupported word that the seven former states that formed the Confederacy intended the massive expansion you claim.  I have a feeling you are basing your assertions on them, as part of the Union, needing to expand it to maintain something close to political parity in Congress.

Second, slavery would have died out naturally as uneconomical in a few more decades.  It was becoming cheaper to hire an irishman at 30 or 50 cents a day than to house, feed, clothe, and doctor a slave.  And, unlike the northern slave holders who sold their slaves south and then outlawed it in some states, the mood among some of the leaders in the south was that they needed to educate their slaves and prepare them for being free members in a free society rather than just kicking them out to starve. Every other western nation got rid of slavery without a war, why do you believe it would it not have been the same here?

Third, what about the northern involvement in the African slave trade? Northern finance was still backing slave ships, having them built or existing ships converted into slavers, provisioning them, crewing them, supplying capital for buying blacks in Africa to reap huge profits selling them in South America and the Caribbean.  If you are going to scream "Slavery!" and point fingers, make sure you include all the guilty parties.


ADDED:

Slavery must not have been that pressing a moral issue since Lincoln was willing to say that slavery would continue if it would keep the deep south in the Union.   And when he "freed the slaves" he allowed slavery to continue in the north, in the border states, and in the parts of the south under federal control.   
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline williamlayton

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15415
Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2011, 10:39:49 AM »
Joe, your always good for a chuckle.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline subdjoe

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3036
  • Gender: Male
Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2011, 11:44:19 AM »
Joe, your always good for a chuckle.
Blessings

That being in translation "I have no reasonable way and no facts
to refute anything you say so I'll just throw out an insult."

Still waiting for the documentation on that embargo, Billy. 
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline williamlayton

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15415
Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2011, 11:15:23 PM »
Your onesided Joe---there was no insult in the statement. It can only be insult if it is not truth. You should recognize an insult and rudeness, your very good with those ideas.
The facts are, if you are correct then you should be able to get an attorney and make a plea before the Supreme Court and they should be able to recognize the legality of your claim and restore the South to the days you desire.
That of course is not reality and of course, if they could and they did what would you do then?
Reality is not legality, it is what it really is.
It really did happen the way it happened and the best we can do with it is to learn. Learning means understanding and accepting, trying to prevent it from becoming reality again.
That of course, will not happen, some people never learn, they just cry because they keep doing the same things over and over again, the same way---hoping that this time things will turn out better. That is the insanes version of reality.
I like you because you argue---not well--but argue. You have a passion, misguided, hoping that you are correct, not willing to let fact stand in the way of your arguement.
Blessings   
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #40 on: August 01, 2011, 08:56:01 AM »
That arguement doesn't work Shootall---no more that a state gov. thinking it owns the state.
The preamble pretty much excludes states being Soverign nations.
Blessings
Then what grounds did the north invade ? With respect to the laws of the land that is ?
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline BUGEYE

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10268
  • Gender: Male
Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #41 on: August 01, 2011, 10:42:11 AM »
That arguement doesn't work Shootall---no more that a state gov. thinking it owns the state.
The preamble pretty much excludes states being Soverign nations.
Blessings
Then what grounds did the north invade ? With respect to the laws of the land that is ?
the south sunk a northern ship.  kinda like the japs at pearl harbor.
Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     Patrick Henry

Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     bugeye

Offline subdjoe

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3036
  • Gender: Male
Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #42 on: August 01, 2011, 01:35:36 PM »
That arguement doesn't work Shootall---no more that a state gov. thinking it owns the state.
The preamble pretty much excludes states being Soverign nations.
Blessings
Then what grounds did the north invade ? With respect to the laws of the land that is ?
the south sunk a northern ship.  kinda like the japs at pearl harbor.

More like shooting at a burglar coming in a window.
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline williamlayton

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15415
Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #43 on: August 01, 2011, 01:42:06 PM »
To preserve the Union.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline SouthernByGrace

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 378
  • Gender: Male
Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #44 on: August 01, 2011, 04:34:21 PM »
To preserve the Union.

WL, Preserve the Union from what? Explain just HOW the Southern States' separation (SECESSION) would have destroyed the Union. I can't find any instance in history where a secession movement destroyed the mother country.

Here is the link to one of my posts in the Yankee Myths of History series from a couple of years ago. In it I give Several Major (Successful) secession movements and not one of them destroyed their mother country (who they seceded From).


www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,169220.0.html

SBG
DEO VINDICE
"Let us cross over the river and rest under the shade of the trees..."
Final words spoken by Gen. Thomas J. (Stonewall) Jackson, CSA

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #45 on: August 02, 2011, 02:55:35 AM »
William that makes about as much sense as the domino theory for invading Viet Nam !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline williamlayton

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15415
Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #46 on: August 02, 2011, 05:45:27 AM »
I didn't make up the reason, Lincoln said that.
The reason/reasons do not have to make sense to this generation--this was the reasoning of that generation.
Now if you want to justify the reasoning of that generation for this one then we, once again, need for them to justify slavery (to begin with) and its expansion desires.
We try and put ourownselves in tune with those of that time and I think that is a rather silly thing to try and do.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline subdjoe

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3036
  • Gender: Male
Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #47 on: August 02, 2011, 06:31:18 AM »
Your onesided Joe---there was no insult in the statement. It can only be insult if it is not truth. You should recognize an insult and rudeness, your very good with those ideas.
The facts are, if you are correct then you should be able to get an attorney and make a plea before the Supreme Court and they should be able to recognize the legality of your claim and restore the South to the days you desire.
That of course is not reality and of course, if they could and they did what would you do then?
Reality is not legality, it is what it really is.
It really did happen the way it happened and the best we can do with it is to learn. Learning means understanding and accepting, trying to prevent it from becoming reality again.
That of course, will not happen, some people never learn, they just cry because they keep doing the same things over and over again, the same way---hoping that this time things will turn out better. That is the insanes version of reality.
I like you because you argue---not well--but argue. You have a passion, misguided, hoping that you are correct, not willing to let fact stand in the way of your arguement.
Blessings

" restore the South to the days you desire."

So, Billy, what the hell do you mean by that?
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline subdjoe

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3036
  • Gender: Male
Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #48 on: August 02, 2011, 06:35:11 AM »
Where is that in the powers or duties of the President, Billy? 

I didn't make up the reason, Lincoln said that.
The reason/reasons do not have to make sense to this generation--this was the reasoning of that generation.
Now if you want to justify the reasoning of that generation for this one then we, once again, need for them to justify slavery (to begin with) and its expansion desires.
We try and put ourownselves in tune with those of that time and I think that is a rather silly thing to try and do.
Blessings
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #49 on: August 02, 2011, 09:25:05 AM »
I didn't make up the reason, Lincoln said that.
The reason/reasons do not have to make sense to this generation--this was the reasoning of that generation.
Now if you want to justify the reasoning of that generation for this one then we, once again, need for them to justify slavery (to begin with) and its expansion desires.
We try and put ourownselves in tune with those of that time and I think that is a rather silly thing to try and do.
Blessings

well because lincoln said it dosent make it legal . Justify slavery better yet justify getting rid of it the way it was accomplished  . From our view point it has been a nightmare. Millions were dumped out of a systen that supported them into a system that in many cases did not. They were forced to compete with others well advanced in education and wealth. The truth is our country is still suffering from it. Not to mention the Govt. took personal property with out reimbersment. If not in the South surely later in the north when the slaves were freed after the war had been over.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline williamlayton

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15415
Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #50 on: August 02, 2011, 09:45:07 AM »
I have said nothing about legality.
When the South attacked FT. Sumpter did it not take it out of the hands of the Congress and put it in the hands of the Commander in Chief ?
 
Joe--it is your thought, you tell me what you want, as far as the civil war is concerned.
Blessings
 
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline subdjoe

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3036
  • Gender: Male
Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #51 on: August 02, 2011, 10:47:06 AM »
I have said nothing about legality.
When the South attacked FT. Sumpter did it not take it out of the hands of the Congress and put it in the hands of the Commander in Chief ?
 
Joe--it is your thought, you tell me what you want, as far as the civil war is concerned.
Blessings

No, Billy, you tell me my position.  You must have had something in mind.  Enlighten us.
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline williamlayton

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15415
Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #52 on: August 02, 2011, 03:23:27 PM »
I said what I thought Joe.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline subdjoe

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3036
  • Gender: Male
Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #53 on: August 02, 2011, 06:10:01 PM »
I said what I thought Joe.
Blessings

Garbage, Billy.  You wrote:
Quote
" restore the South to the days you desire."

so you must have some vision, some revelation, about what I "desire."

Tell us what it is I "desire."
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #54 on: August 03, 2011, 10:14:54 AM »
I have said nothing about legality.
When the South attacked FT. Sumpter did it not take it out of the hands of the Congress and put it in the hands of the Commander in Chief ?
 
Joe--it is your thought, you tell me what you want, as far as the civil war is concerned.
Blessings

I brought up legal. I would say that old abe had the authority to defend the fort for a short but I believe Congress had to supply funds to support it and declar war. . I think that is one of those check and blance thingiees  ;)
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #55 on: August 03, 2011, 10:16:20 AM »
In reality one could see abe action during the war as expansionism in the boldest of ways .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline williamlayton

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15415
Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #56 on: August 03, 2011, 12:39:54 PM »
Now that is an interesting take. The nation was in the midst of expansionism, people moving west.
I think if you ascribe it to Abe then there must have bees some direction he gave to do this.
IMO, he, nor congress or anyone could not have stopped this westward moving hoard. It was to be from sea to shining sea---maybe manifest destiny was correct.
We know that the onlyiest thing that stopped the movement was the Pacific.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline littlecanoe

  • Trade Count: (14)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2842
Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #57 on: August 03, 2011, 02:28:00 PM »
This thread has me thinking a bit.
As CIC would it not have been Lincoln's duty to support the secession of those states?
It seems that based on the intent of the founding fathers, based on their experiences, and based on previous statements by Mr. L he should have applauded the exercise of freedom and self governance in which the southern states were engaged.

lc


Offline williamlayton

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15415
Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #58 on: August 03, 2011, 10:45:35 PM »
Not after hostilities arose.
Blesssings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #59 on: August 04, 2011, 02:49:35 AM »
Now that is an interesting take. The nation was in the midst of expansionism, people moving west.
I think if you ascribe it to Abe then there must have bees some direction he gave to do this.
IMO, he, nor congress or anyone could not have stopped this westward moving hoard. It was to be from sea to shining sea---maybe manifest destiny was correct.
We know that the onlyiest thing that stopped the movement was the Pacific.
Blessings

I think you are correct about the Pacific. I believe that there were many things other than slavery taking place that also led to war. Slavery is a good thing for the North to hang their hat on as no one could argure the righnous of that cause . But in reality it is little more than cover for the many other reasons . They won they write the book
If ya can see it ya can hit it !