Author Topic: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?  (Read 5118 times)

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Offline MICHIMAN65

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I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« on: July 07, 2011, 05:51:38 PM »
 I'm no expert by any means, and this is coming from some one who was born and raised in Michigan, but I was taught that even apart from slavery, the south had had enough. They were sick of Washington corruption, and especially the northeastern politicians. Looking at our government today, it's no stretch of the imagination to see why the South wanted to be an independent nation. I just started reading a book called "The South Was Right" and from the little I've read so far, it sounds like a war was coming, slavery or no. Michiman. 

Offline williamlayton

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Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2011, 03:27:04 AM »
Right or wrong is the opinion---but I agree that it was inevitable.
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Offline subdjoe

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Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2011, 07:00:39 AM »
I'm no expert by any means, and this is coming from some one who was born and raised in Michigan, but I was taught that even apart from slavery, the south had had enough. They were sick of Washington corruption, and especially the northeastern politicians. Looking at our government today, it's no stretch of the imagination to see why the South wanted to be an independent nation. I just started reading a book called "The South Was Right" and from the little I've read so far, it sounds like a war was coming, slavery or no. Michiman.

Personally, I think "War To Prevent Southern Independence" or "Federal War Against States Rights" would be more accurate, but WoNA has a better ring to it.

The war was not inevitable.  Secession, yes, that was.  But northern capital and industry was dependent on the flow of southern dollars into the federal treasury to prop them up.  It was to keep those dollars flowing into federal coffers the federal government was preparing to move, was in fact moving, against the former southern states. 

(although according to the federal government they never left the Union.  Which leads to the odd situation in 1865 of the feds saying that they had in fact left the Union, and to voluntarily be forced back into it, those states needed to ratify a couple of amendments to the Constitution.  So they were still in the Union, otherwise they couldn't ratify any amendments, but they weren't in the Union until they ratified the amendments.)
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Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline williamlayton

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Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2011, 08:34:19 AM »
If you put a gun to your head, death is not inevitable---If you pull the trigger death happens.
The South pulled the trigger when it seceded.
The South was not going to stop acquireing land and, IMO, the war was  inevitable within a short time.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline subdjoe

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Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2011, 09:45:45 AM »
If you put a gun to your head, death is not inevitable---If you pull the trigger death happens.
The South pulled the trigger when it seceded.
The South was not going to stop acquireing land and, IMO, the war was  inevitable within a short time.
Blessings

No, the north "pulled the trigger," Willy.  Lincoln could have decided to pull the troops off of the soil of seceded states, rather than attempting to reinforce them and raising an army to invade them.  As has been pointed out several times, the federal government was teaching its military leaders that the states (independent republics as they were called int the text book) had the right to withdraw from the Union.  Adams, Jefferson, and Madison, to name a few, said that states could withdraw. 

OK, maybe the Confederacy wanted to acquire more territory. So?  Are you saying that the industrialists and financial interests in the north didn't?  If not, why is one good and one bad?
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Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline GatorDude

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Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2011, 01:45:32 PM »
When the South seceded which they had the right to do as sovereign states, the Union states continued to occupy territory within the South.  That was an illegal act.  They should have withdrawn their forces.  When the Philipines asked U.S. forces to leave, we left.  If you look around the world, any new regime in a state where we currently have a military base could ask us to leave.  We would leave in compliance with international law.

In addition, Confederate sympathizers "Copperheads" in Ohio were jailed and forced to flee the country and they were prevented from participating in the political process.  Similarly, states like Maryland were compelled to stay within the Union.  While slavery was a terrible thing, legally, the Union was completely in the wrong.

Offline williamlayton

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Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2011, 12:47:33 AM »
Joe
Your opinion is called suicide by cop.
Coulda/woulda---it has happened. Now you can say I am innocent until the cows come home but it does not change the outcome, does it?
"Just let" is the key phrase I keep hearing---they didn't "just let", told them they were not going to "just let", could not "just let" because of the knowledge that France and England would jump in to take control and here we would go with all that mess again.
Sometimes you just have to look past what I want and see what the results of I want will bring.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline littlecanoe

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Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2011, 02:20:43 AM »
I'm no expert by any means, and this is coming from some one who was born and raised in Michigan, but I was taught that even apart from slavery, the south had had enough. They were sick of Washington corruption, and especially the northeastern politicians. Looking at our government today, it's no stretch of the imagination to see why the South wanted to be an independent nation. I just started reading a book called "The South Was Right" and from the little I've read so far, it sounds like a war was coming, slavery or no. Michiman.

Great point.  That's where I am in my understanding.  Haven't read the book you mentioned yet but need to look it over some day.

If France and England "might have" "could have" we only have to look at what did happen and note that they "didn't".  They didn't play a bigger role in the war and easily could have because of the division.  Had they wanted to expand their empires, England especially was still thinking expansion, the 1860's would have been the time to do so.  They could have taken the whole enchilada.

Offline subdjoe

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Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2011, 08:35:19 AM »
Why do you keep airing the unsupported assumption that European powers would automatically take over, Willy? 

Heck, if they had tried, sectional issues would have been put aside and North and South would have joined and taken over England (including Canada) and France (including Mexico).




Joe
Your opinion is called suicide by cop.
Coulda/woulda---it has happened. Now you can say I am innocent until the cows come home but it does not change the outcome, does it?
"Just let" is the key phrase I keep hearing---they didn't "just let", told them they were not going to "just let", could not "just let" because of the knowledge that France and England would jump in to take control and here we would go with all that mess again.
Sometimes you just have to look past what I want and see what the results of I want will bring.
Blessings
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline ironfoot

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Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2011, 12:21:11 PM »
It was a rebellion to perpetuate slavery.
 
Lincoln's anti slavery views were well known as result of the Lincoln/Douglas debates and Lincoln's Coopers Union speech. Lincoln was elected on an anti-slavery Republican platform. Lincoln was elected President of the whole country, not just the North. The South would not abide by the results of the presidential election, and engaged in armed revolt.  The North fought to preserve the Union and representative democracy. The South fought to perpetuate it's significant investment in "property" in  the form of human slaves.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln%E2%80%93Douglas_debates_of_1858

http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/cooper.htm

http://www.cprr.org/Museum/Ephemera/Republican_Platform_1860.html

http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres31.html

http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres32.html

http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html

http://americancivilwar.com/documents/index.html

http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/gettysburg.htm

http://www.filibustercartoons.com/CSA.htm

Lincoln's last speech:

http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/last.htm

"For the first time in a public setting, Lincoln expressed his support for black suffrage. This statement incensed John Wilkes Booth, a member of the audience, who vowed, "That is the last speech he will make." A white supremacist and Confederate activist, Booth made good on his threat three days later."


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Offline subdjoe

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Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2011, 04:26:25 PM »
Here you go claiming again that slavery was the only issue.  After screaming that you never say that.

But, suppose that secession was only about slavery.  Slavery was legal.  And, secession is not rebellion, nor is it making war.  And, more specifically, secession is not "armed rebellion."  The state legislatures met, debated, drew up documents severing their ties with the Union in the same matter state legislatures voted to dissolve the "perpetual" union under the Articles of Confederation, and then to accept the Constitution.  All perfectly legal.  None of it was prohibited to the States by the US Constitution.

The war was about keeping revenue flowing into the federal treasury first and foremost. That was the reason "honest" Abe gave for it.

And, again, if, as you have again said
Quote
It was a rebellion to perpetuate slavery.
and the only thing the seven southern states was interested in was slavery, why didn't they stay in the Union and ratify the Corwin Amendment?

In fact, that four states did not issue legislation dissolving their bonds with the Union until after Lincoln tried to coerce them into invading the states that had left the Union, and threatened to march Federal troops through them, in what they saw as an unconstitutional abuse of federal power, you "it was about slavery" falls flaming to the floor as the falsehood that it is.

Was slavery in the mix of reasons?  Yes, it was.  Was it, as you imply, the only reason?  No.  Secession was not only about slavery.  And the War was decidedly not about slavery.  In fact, in his first inaugural address, "Honest" Abe basically said that he was willing to let them go, if the tripled Morrill Tariffs from federal customs houses still flowed into Washington.

Here are some that I'm sure you will dismiss:

Quote
From the Baltimore Exchange, 23d ult. (i.e. April 23, 1861)
 Interview between Messengers of Peace and Mr. Lincoln
The Baltimore Sun has the following in relation to the interview between the President and a committee of the "Young Men’s Christian Association of Baltimore," it says:
We learn that a delegation from five of the Young Men's Christian Associations of Baltimore, consisting of six members of each, yesterday proceeded to Washington for an interview with the President, the purpose being to intercede with him in behalf a peaceful policy, and to entreat him not to pass troops through Baltimore or Maryland. The Rev. Dr. Fuller, of the Baptist church, accompanied the party, by invitation, as chairman, and the conversation was conducted mainly between him and Mr. Lincoln, and was not heard entire by all the members of the Convention.
Our informant, however, vouches for what we now write. He states that upon the introduction, they were received very cordially by Mr. Lincoln—a sort of rude familiarity of manner – and the conversation opened by Dr. Fuller seeking to impress upon Mr. Lincoln the vast responsibility of the position he occupied, and that upon him depended the issues, of peace or war—on one hand a terrible, fratricidal conflict, and on the other peace. “But” said Mr. Lincoln, what am I to do?”
“Why, sir, let the country know that you are disposed to recognize the independence of the Southern States. I say nothing of secession; recognize the fact that they have formed a Government of their own; that they will never be united again with the North, and peace will instantly take the place of anxiety and suspense, and war may he averted.” “AND WHAT SHALL BECOME OF THE REVENUE? I SHALL HAVE NO GOVERNMENT—NO RESOURCES?” (Emphasis added, not in the original)
Dr. Fuller expressed the opinion that the Northern States would constitute an imposing government and furnish revenue, but our informant could not follow the exact terms of the remark.
(Reprinted in the Memphis Daily Avalanche May 8th 1861, pg.1, col. 4.)
 
Second episode:
At an interview between Virginia Convention Delegate John B. Baldwin and President Lincoln on April 4th, 1861, Baldwin suggested to Lincoln that “in order to prevent the possibility of any collision or clash of arms interfering with this effort at a pacific settlement, I would declare the purpose (not in any admission of want of right at all, but with a distinct protest of the right, to place the forces of the United States wherever in her territory you choose) to withdraw the forces from Sumter and Pickens, declaring that it was done for the sake of peace, in the effort to settle this thing; … He said something about the withdrawal of the troops from Sumter on the ground of military necessity. Said I, "that will never do under heaven. You have been President a month to-day, and if you intended to hold that position you ought to have strengthened it, so as to make it impregnable. To hold it in the present condition of force there is an invitation to assault. Go upon higher ground than that. The better ground than that is to make a concession of an asserted right in the interest of peace."-"Well," said he, "WHAT ABOUT THE REVENUE? WHAT WOULD I DO ABOUT THE COLLECTION OF DUTIES?" (Emphasis added, not in the original)
Said I, "Sir, how much do you expect to collect in a year?" Said he, "Fifty or sixty millions." "Why sir," said I, "four times sixty is two hundred and forty. Say $250,000,000 would be the revenue of your term of the presidency; what is that but a drop in the bucket compared with the cost of such a war as we are threatened with? Let it all go, if necessary; but I do not believe that it will be necessary, because I believe that you can settle it on the basis I suggest." He said something or other about feeding the troops at Sumter. I told him that would not do. Said I, "You know perfectly well that the people of Charleston have been feeding them already. That is not what they are at. They are asserting a right. They will feed the troops and fight them while they are feeding them. They are after the assertion of a right. Now, the only way that you can manage them is to withdraw from them the means of making a blow until time for reflection, time for influence which can be brought to bear, can be gained, and settle the matter. If you do not take this course, if there is a gun fired at Sumter-I do not care on which side it is fired-the thing is gone." "Oh," said he, "sir, that is impossible." Said I, "Sir, if there is a gun fired at Sumter, as sure as there is a God in heaven the thing is gone. Virginia herself, strong as the Union majority is now, will be out in forty-eight hours."
(From testimony before the Reconstruction Committee of the US Congress by Mr. Baldwin in 1866
And, I'm going to ask once again: Where in the Constitution is there any clause that prohibits any state from withdrawing from the Union?  Please cite the text.
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Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline ironfoot

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Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2011, 05:14:56 AM »
The fight over whether slavery would expand into the territories predated the Civil War.
Read about Bleeding Kansas:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleeding_Kansas
I don't see how anybody can, with a straight face, claim that it was "legal" for the South to go to war in order to perpetuate and expand slavery.
Southerners realize that is a losing argument, and that is why they ignore the historical evidence and try to claim the major issue wasn't slavery.
 
 
"Lincoln followed the Republican platform from the Chicago convention. He believed that the major problem between the North and South was the inability to reach agreement with respect to the expansion of slavery. Lincoln did not believe that he had the power to eliminate slavery where it already existed. However, Southerners feared that a Republican administration would take direct aim at the institution of slavery."
http://www.lib.niu.edu/2006/ih060934.html
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Offline subdjoe

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Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2011, 06:24:32 AM »
The seven states of the deep south did not, as you claim,  go to war in order to perpetuate and expand slavery.

They left the Union.  The federal government went to war to force them back.

Now, again, please provide the text from the Constitution that prohibits any state from severing its ties with the Union.  Until you can do that, all your rants are meaningless.
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Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline ironfoot

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Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2011, 06:35:00 AM »
The southern states wanted to preserve and expand slavery.
When they felt they were losing that goal, as evidenced by Kansas not being admitted as a slave state, and Lincoln being elected President on an anti slavery platform, the south engaged in armed revolt and attacked a federal fort.
How is that legal?
The Constitution provides for adding new states, but not for secession.
The revolutionary war was about no taxation without representation.
The south had representation, but tried to refute a federal presidential election (in which they had participated) by armed revolt.
How is that legal?

Read the reasons the southern states gave for seceding at this link.
.http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html
 
Their main concern was slavery
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Offline subdjoe

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Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2011, 09:26:57 AM »
Ah!  So now you are changing your view to slavery being their main concern, rather than their only on.

Again, you fail to show text that prohibits states from leaving the Union.  It doesn't matter that it didn't spell out how they could do it.  All that matters is that the Constitution did not prohibit it.  The US Constitution dealt with how the FEDERAL government was put together and what powers it has.  It says almost nothing about the states, other than some limitations, they can't coin money, make treaties, keep an army, grant titles of nobility, levy duties on imports and exports.  Seems like if the framers had wanted to keep states from leaving the Union, it would have been spelled out in the prohibition in Art. 1 sec. 10.  And, the federal government taught in the US Military Academy, in the class on Constitutional Law, that the states did have the right to withdraw from the Union.

Once again, set aside your red herring of shouting "SLAVERY!" at every turn and produce the text that prohibits states from leaving the Union. 




The southern states wanted to preserve and expand slavery.
When they felt they were losing that goal, as evidenced by Kansas not being admitted as a slave state, and Lincoln being elected President on an anti slavery platform, the south engaged in armed revolt and attacked a federal fort.
How is that legal?
The Constitution provides for adding new states, but not for secession.
The revolutionary war was about no taxation without representation.
The south had representation, but tried to refute a federal presidential election (in which they had participated) by armed revolt.
How is that legal?

Read the reasons the southern states gave for seceding at this link.
.http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html
 
Their main concern was slavery
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline ironfoot

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Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2011, 10:40:10 AM »
I never changed anything.
I have always said that the reason the southern states seceded was to preserve and expand slavery.
You try to claim other motives were more important.
I deny it..
You make outlandish statements, and attribute them to others.
This thread was about the reason for secession, and you try to change it to the red herring about legality of secession.
The Constitution made no provision for secession.
You say that the legality of secession was tought at West Point.
So what?
Officers who attended West Point fought on both sides in the Civil War.
Obviously those who fought for the North did not beleive the South's secession was legal.
The pro slavery forces used force in Kansas, and in secession, and the Union had to use force to repress them.
'The good guys won.
 
 
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Offline subdjoe

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Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2011, 04:13:39 PM »
No, it is about the reason for the War ((points up to the thread title)).  See?  It says WAR. 

You keep saying that the Constitution makes no provision for secession.  OK, it doesn't.  Neither does it make provisions for voting.  Does that mean that citizens have no right to vote?

The important thing is that, now try to pay attention here, it does not prohibit it to the states.  I guess you could call it an unenumerate right of the states and exists under the provisions of the 10th Amendment.  But the only important point is that it is not prohibited. 

And as for the right of secession being taught at the USMA, well, it would seem that if the federal government was teaching its future military officers that according to the Constitution states had the right to leave the Union, then the federal government must have recognized that as a valid right of the states against the federal government. 

So....again...show me the text that prohibits the states from leaving the Union.
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline GatorDude

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Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2011, 07:46:47 PM »
Each state in the South was already an independent state voluntarily participating in a union.  Since they had a right to dissolve a voluntary union, they should not have had to fight for independence.  They already had it.  They were invaded by the North and hence "Northern Aggression" moniker.  The North was pretty much like that shirtless guy in the trailer park who shoots his wife when she tells him she wants a divorce.  ;)

Offline ironfoot

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Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2011, 12:38:30 PM »
Subdjoe
There you go screaming again.
The Constitution says quite a bit about voting. Now try to pay attention here...Here is one provision:
Article 1. Section. 2.The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature. No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen.
Maybe this surprises you, but people get elected through receiving enough votes.

As you admit, the Constitution makes provision for adding states, but no provision for states seceding.
The Constitution also prohibits construing the Constitution in any manner that prejudices the claims of the US to US property or the Territory:
Article IV. Section. 3. New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress. The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.
So how can an attack on the US Fort Sumter be Consitutional?
The secession was a rebellion to perpetuate slavery. Now try to pay attention again here...the South did not secede simply because it thought secession was legal, so "Why not?" The South seceded to preserve and expand its considerable investment in slaves. The North understood the South's reasons for secession, and did not want a slave power country competing with the North for the territories. The North fought to preserve the Union. Both sides knew the underlying issue was the expansion of slavery, not some sophist argument about the legality of secession.
 
 
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Offline BUGEYE

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Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2011, 12:59:44 PM »
one only has to read the acceptance speech of the confederate vice president to know that it was, is and will always be about slavery.
Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     Patrick Henry

Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     bugeye

Offline subdjoe

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Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2011, 02:42:13 PM »
Here is the provision for secession:

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Now, since you insist that states could not leave, please provide the text from the Constitution that prohibits it.


Put up or shut up.



Subdjoe
There you go screaming again.
The Constitution says quite a bit about voting. Now try to pay attention here...Here is one provision:
Article 1. Section. 2.The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature. No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen.
Maybe this surprises you, but people get elected through receiving enough votes.

As you admit, the Constitution makes provision for adding states, but no provision for states seceding.
The Constitution also prohibits construing the Constitution in any manner that prejudices the claims of the US to US property or the Territory:
Article IV. Section. 3. New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress. The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.
So how can an attack on the US Fort Sumter be Consitutional?
The secession was a rebellion to perpetuate slavery. Now try to pay attention again here...the South did not secede simply because it thought secession was legal, so "Why not?" The South seceded to preserve and expand its considerable investment in slaves. The North understood the South's reasons for secession, and did not want a slave power country competing with the North for the territories. The North fought to preserve the Union. Both sides knew the underlying issue was the expansion of slavery, not some sophist argument about the legality of secession.
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline subdjoe

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Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2011, 02:43:24 PM »
one only has to read the acceptance speech of the confederate vice president to know that it was, is and will always be about slavery.

Secession, a major cause.

The War...nope, Northern greed.
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline williamlayton

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Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2011, 01:30:44 AM »
Well, Hummmmm.
Cut to the chase time--but some will not get it.
Whatever the reasons it happened as it happened. Wars have been started over a lot of issue's---read their history.
The points here are for justifying what happened and feel good excuses for why it was incorrect for the Union to intercede in this act of secession.
If you are a Confederist you can sling hash until you are thoroughly convinced you are trodden upon. That is OK by me. Feel good about the reasons if you want, have all the pity party you need.
Cut to chase---it happened and it ended and it is the way it is.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline littlecanoe

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Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2011, 03:16:31 AM »
Hope the vacation was a good one Bill!

I see your line of reasoning but will contrast the example  WONA against Fascism in Europe.
I would never say to Europe "get over it".  There was a moral right an ethical right and reality.
Of course we would agree that reality is the result of Sovereignty.

My point in arguing for "why the south was right" is not to recreate history but to keep us from
repeating the history of loosing freedom(s).  Only if we remember and understand the cause and effect will we be strengthened to never give up freedoms again.  Maybe we will be emboldened to regain some of those freedoms lost.
lc

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2011, 03:25:20 AM »
Do a little reserch about West Flordia in the 1800-1850 range . It might give you some idea of how people felt in the South back then. Remember FL went all the wat to the Mississippi river at one time. Most were tired of France , Spain and England by then.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline williamlayton

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Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2011, 07:24:04 AM »
Trip was good LC---made me appreciate America the more.
Europe, being some 2000 years ahead of America-is going thru this once again.
The languages are the binders in Europe along with ethnic structure.
It is for sure that each ethnic and language group wants soveriegnty. American was/is not so structured. We may think of ethneticity but it is more cultural and less binding---ya'll is a pretty common word around the states, I have found, fixin to is less. Sausage, steaks and beer pretty common---something about common good is more understandable--common goalsand liberties (for the most part).
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TEXAS, by GOD

Offline gstewart44

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Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2011, 11:35:48 AM »
The important thing is that, now try to pay attention here, it does not prohibit it to the states.  I guess you could call it an unenumerate right of the states and exists under the provisions of the 10th Amendment.  But the only important point is that it is not prohibited. 
  +1       Nor is it explicitly listed as a a power of Congress to maintain the existing states or prevent seccession of said states in Article 1 section 8 of the Constitution.   But especially for the 10th amendment, if it is not prohibited to the States,  then the States may excercise that option.   I think that the language in the 10th and the 1st  is pretty clear.    Even I understand it.    Seems like those who are smarter than me should be able to.   
I'm just tryin' to keep everything in balance, Woodrow. You do more work than you got to, so it's my obligation to do less. (Gus McCrae)

Offline subdjoe

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Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2011, 03:31:36 PM »
The important thing is that, now try to pay attention here, it does not prohibit it to the states.  I guess you could call it an unenumerate right of the states and exists under the provisions of the 10th Amendment.  But the only important point is that it is not prohibited. 
  +1       Nor is it explicitly listed as a a power of Congress to maintain the existing states or prevent seccession of said states in Article 1 section 8 of the Constitution.   But especially for the 10th amendment, if it is not prohibited to the States,  then the States may excercise that option.   I think that the language in the 10th and the 1st  is pretty clear.    Even I understand it.    Seems like those who are smarter than me should be able to.

Thanks.  As I pointed out in other threads, in the US Military Academy class on Constitutional Law, the Federal government taught that the states were independent republics, and that to remain in the Union they had to maintain a republican form of government,  and did have the right to leave the Union. 
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2011, 06:26:41 AM »
It would seem if the states could not leave then the federal govt. in some way felt they owned the states if so states rights is little more than words on a paper with little meaning.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline williamlayton

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Re: I thought it was the Southern war for independence?
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2011, 10:27:45 AM »
That arguement doesn't work Shootall---no more that a state gov. thinking it owns the state.
The preamble pretty much excludes states being Soverign nations.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD