926 yard handgun antelope kill (video)

[briarpatch]

What is an ethical distance to shoot an animal? Also is it confined:
to the man?
to the distance?
to the gun?
to the bullet?
to the shot?
all of the above?
Other?

[KYODE]

If you ever get out my let me know

if i win the lottery, i'll keep you in mind.    i see no reason i wouldn't be capable with the right equipment. that equipment and travel is far beyond me.  
 
actually i was mostly refering to another "message board" that is extremely closed minded....along with that locked thread you mention.

[xphunter]

It is really a systems approach.
It is all you mentioned and more.
From minute to minute we may be capable or incapable of making a good shot in field conditions, given the fact of buck fever or just running up a steep ridge, or outside temperatures.
Plus, what is going on in your mind can determine whether or not you are at your best.
That is some of the things that relate to the hunter.

[xphunter]

If you ever get out my let me know

actually i was mostly refering to another "message board" that is extremely closed minded....

Ah, now I know what you are talking about.

[Lloyd Smale]

how many talking humane kills bow hunt? How humane is sticking a razor tipped arrow into something and waiting till it bleads out? How many here are trappers. Now thats a real humane way to take animals. Id bet sixgunner can give testimate to the fact that about half the handgun hunters out there have no bussiness hunting even at 25 yards and how many of you rightious rifle hunters go out in the woods without even shooting a couple rounds to check zero or maybe at the outmost shooting a box of shells a year. Id bet sixgunner counts his rounds per year by the thousand. Now what would you say if i told you i didnt think your bow hunting was ethical or they should ban trapping or that if you cant prove you shot at least a 200 rounds out of the gun your using to hunt this year you shouldnt be allowed in the woods. Or better yet prove not only your round count but also pass a shooting test? Like was said we are all killing. thats what hunting is plain and simple. You are also inflicting pain on an animal everytime you do it. If you doubt that watch your dog wine when he hurts himself. How do you think that deer feels with an arrow through his shoulder. Speaking of dogs how many rabbit hunters here. Sick a dog on em and run them till there ragged and then blow the hell out of them with a 12 guage. Now theres some ethical hunting.  Where do you draw the line. Where ever YOU want to. Just dont come preaching to me that your all sanctimonious. Its a pretty fine line between a deer running 50 yards and dieing and one that runs 500 yards and dies. Ive shot deer with 300 mags and have seen them flop around for minutes before dieing. Its not pleasant but its part of hunting and if it bothers you quit. If your saying it doesnt happen to you your a lier plain and simple or you just havent hunted enough. Theres enough laws and rules in this courtry allready. we sure dont need guys trying to impress there own rules or standards on us.

[SHOOTALL]

Lloyd Smale , fine post !

[xphunter]

Briar,
I do not believe an ethical distance exists.
Why?
So many variables.

One is cartridges.
The biggest cartridge I have in a specialty handgun is the 375 Chey-Tac Improved. 
It is called the 375 Snipe-Tac.  It is one of Dave Viers cartridges. 
About 150 grains of powder with a 370 grain ultra low drag hunting bullet makes for quite a combo.
Compare that with a 7mm TCU in a Super 14 TC and well, there is not much to compare, except how dramatically different they are.

Within that is the handgun action you are using. 
Some flex a lot more than others. 
Also, quality of the trigger. 
I sure don't expect to see  five shot 5" groups at 1000 yards from a lot of triggers I see on various specialty handguns.
Add to that the barrel quality, whether or not the barrel is free-floated or not.

What kind of optic are you using and is it capable of holding its zero, and are its clicks consistent and accurate whether they are runnining mils, IPHY or MOA.

Then you have your bullets, they are not all created equal. 
Does it have the quality/consistency to hold accuracy at distance?
You have to make sure you have enough velocity at your impact distance for the bullet to do its job. 
At the same time it must have a high enough BC to not have a lot of windrift or drop as quickly as typical hunting bullets.

Your ammo should be match grade. 
I use Redding comp dies and sometimes Forester.   
I can check case and bullet runout.
In other words most of us who push distance are doing a whole lot more in the loading process, than regular reloaders do.
We are looking for consistency, and so we have our specialty pistols built as if they were bench guns in terms of quality.
I don't enjoy going through all the things I do in the load process as much as I used to, but it is required for me if I am going to do this.

Yes, I even compete (from field positions and bench) at distances out to and just past 1000 yards with the guns I hunt with.
I don't know how many rounds I go through in a year.  But there is a lot more to this than just round count.
It is intentional practice in both good and bad shooting conditions in terms of temp and wind, with the majority of that practice being from field positions.
I usually start practicing at 500 yards, once my load has been developed, chronographed, turrets zeroed, etc, and drops have been confirmed out to 1200 yards.

Do I practice some from the standing positions?  Yes, with my center grip XP's and my 15" rear grip MOA's I do some. 
Usually to 75-100 yards.
But I encourage for people to get as close to the ground as possible when making a shot at game.
Why? 
First of all, because I am not Quigley
Because most of the time the closer you get to the ground the steadier you are going to be.
I don't have a problem for those who shoot from the off-hand position when hunting, as it, like long-range takes practice and discipline to become proficient at it.

[Casull]

You are also inflicting pain on an animal everytime you do it. If you doubt that watch your dog wine when he hurts himself. How do you think that deer feels with an arrow through his shoulder.

 
I've yet to hear a deer whine, whimper or show any sign of pain from an arrow shot.  They just run like hell, whether hit or miss.

[SHOOTALL]

A buddy shot a deer in the spine about mid way down its back with an arrow. Couldn't move its back legs I could hear it making noise a hundred yards away. I saw a guy try a head shot on a deer at maybe 90 yards , he took out the front part of the lower jaw . That deer made a blood curdling noise until a second shot was takem. I watched a  doe get tangled in a fence breaking both front legs she was making alot of noise until I put her down. All of these sounds sounded like the critter was in pain. I have heard others .

[SHOOTALL]

Have you seen a deer touch an eletric fence ?Don't know if its cussing or pain but they often make a noise.

[BruceP]

I will stay out of the debate on "ethics" here but I would like to congratulate sixgunner on two things.
 
First on a great shot that from what I have seen posted here and on other sites I feel he and some others could make on a regular basis.
 
Second and just as important to me his restraint and I'm not taking about in his shooting. 
 
Bruce

[Casull]

 

A buddy shot a deer in the spine about mid way down its back with an arrow. Couldn't move its back legs I could hear it making noise a hundred yards away. I saw a guy try a head shot on a deer at maybe 90 yards , he took out the front part of the lower jaw . That deer made a blood curdling noise until a second shot was takem. I watched a  doe get tangled in a fence breaking both front legs she was making alot of noise until I put her down. All of these sounds sounded like the critter was in pain. I have heard others .

     Thanks Shootall.  You helped make my point.  Deer do vocalize when in pain.  And, I've never heard one make any noise when shot with an arrow (although I guess if shot in the spine with an arrow it does).

[SHOOTALL]

Pain is not just a human trait it is a system where a body tells the brain something is being over stressed , broken , hot , cold etc. Its time to stop or move away if possible .

[billy_56081]

I am still amazed with the shot. As an aside, if a critter making a dying sound bothers you, ya need to get a different hobby. I love the sound of a hog squeeling or a bear death bawl after I shoot em.

[painted horse]

Place is starting to sound like a PETA site.    Shooting and Hunting forum O.K. Let this thread finish dying it's slow agonizing death...

[Lloyd Smale]

I spined a 7 pointer with my bow (just a poor shot) and it screamed like a little kid! I put two more arrows in it and it just kept yelling. I finally had to get down and cut its throat. even i was shaking after all of that!! Ive also walked up to deer shot with a gun that werent yet dead and when they look at you with those eyes bulging out of there head you just know there in pain. Its just part of there life cycle. Sure they may suffer a bit but not as much as they would starving to death or being ate alive by a coyotte. But dont make the mistake of believing that your doing them a favor and that they dont feel that bullet blasting through them. IF your truely conserned about animals suffering youd best sell your guns.

You are also inflicting pain on an animal everytime you do it. If you doubt that watch your dog wine when he hurts himself. How do you think that deer feels with an arrow through his shoulder.

 
I've yet to hear a deer whine, whimper or show any sign of pain from an arrow shot.  They just run like hell, whether hit or miss.

[nomosendero]

Well, this is a very revealing thread & sadly an indicator of future problems.

[doulos]

This thread cracks me up.  Everybody who doesn't react to this shot being discussed like the majority (ie immediate congratulations) is immediately linked with PETA, anti-hunters, etc.  And then they are given a lecture by the moderators how much animals suffer during hunting. As if they didnt know.  Go look at this thread on Handgunhunt.com and see the different reactions there also. But look how the moderators handled it also.

[BUGEYE]

This thread cracks me up.  Everybody who doesn't react to this shot being discussed like the majority (ie immediate congratulations) is immediately linked with PETA, anti-hunters, etc.  And then they are given a lecture by the moderators how much animals suffer during hunting. As if they didnt know.  Go look at this thread on Handgunhunt.com and see the different reactions there also. But look how the moderators handled it also.

good post.

[doulos]

mod·er·a·tor/ˈmɒdəˌreɪtər/ [mod-uh-rey-ter]  –noun 1. a person or thing that moderates. 2. a person who presides over a panel discussion on radio or television. 3. a presiding officer, as at a public forum, a legislative body, or an ecclesiastical body in the Presbyterian Church.
 
 mod·er·ate/adj., n. ˈmɒdərɪt, ˈmɒdrɪt; v. ˈmɒdəˌreɪt/   [adj., n. mod-er-it, mod-rit; v. mod-uh-reyt] adjective, noun, verb, -at·ed, -at·ing. –adjective 1.kept or keeping within reasonable or proper limits; not extreme, excessive, or intense: a moderate price. 2.of medium quantity, extent, or amount: a moderate income. 3.mediocre or fair: moderate talent. 4.calm or mild, as of the weather.5.of or pertaining to moderates, as in politics or religion.–noun 6.a person who is moderate in opinion or opposed to extreme views and actions, especially in politics or religion.7.(usually initial capital letter) a member of a political party advocating moderate reform.–verb (used with object) 8.to reduce the excessiveness of; make less violent, severe, intense, or rigorous: to moderate the sharpness of one's words. 9.to preside over or at (a public forum, meeting, discussion, etc.).–verb (used without object) 10.to become less violent, severe, intense, or rigorous.11.to act as moderator;  preside.
 
 A moderator is just supposed to keep the discussion with in reasonable limits.
Their job is not to take sides and try to get every one to agree. It is just to keep it  reasonable .
What is a forum for if you cant disagree?

[Lloyd Smale]

if you are refering to me by the moderator crack. Im not the moderator on this forum im the moderator on the single action forum and have no power of moderation what so ever on this fourm and if i did threres not a single thing in this post that requires moderation. Like you yourself  said the moderators job is to keep the discusion within reasonable limits. NOt shove there opinion down your throat.  Thats the problem with some fourms. You either fall in line like a little robot and agree with the management or they show you the door. Pretty tough to get anything but a bunch of suck @@@@@@ on a fourm like that. I just speak my mind. I feel real bad that  it bothers you that some people here agree with my viewpoint. Some just think there a bit more rithteous then the rest of us. Me im a hunter. I kill animals, I eat aniamls. I dont try to sugar coat it. I push my self apointed moral standards on anyone and sure dont live by yours. violate a game law where i can see you and id be the first to insure you were arrested but follow the law and how you hunt is your own business not mine.

[Mikey]

doulos:  is there a problem here?

[BUGEYE]

doulos:  is there a problem here?

he made the same observation I did.  I even congratulated sixgunner for being a good shot but when I spoke of my self-imposed limits of PBR the peta insults started.

[painted horse]

Well you're incorrect again, the PETA "insult" had nothing at all to do with anyone who disagrees with the OP's miraculously good shot, or the taking of it. It had to do with a couple replys on the pain that the animals suffer when a bad hit was evidenced. Well no duh..I would just imagine that they suffer pretty significant pain with a good shot also.  Thats why I wonder about all the "humane harvesting" posts I read.  Come on, if you're gonna shoot an animal, I don't care where you hit it, it's probably gonna hurt..no hunter that I know wants to wound an animal, but it happens obviously, and distance really doesen't have much to do with it. Most have a maximum distance that they impose on themselves.  Like I said mines around 300yds max, prefer much closer,  could I miss a little and not get the "instant" kill you all are evidently striving for, yep, done it. Sorry...

[Casull]

distance really doesen't have much to do with it.

I would disagree on this.

[doulos]

Painted horse you werent the first one to mention PETA when referring to people who viewed this shot differently in this thread. It was 2 pages back by Bugflipper (who is identified as a moderator). If he isnt then I dont know who the moderator here is.  There is no less than 4 people with that sign by their screen name on this thread. And bugflipper immediately identified anyone who disagreed as "having a little Peta rub off on them and raising animals above humans"

I thought that was not the place for someone that is identified as a moderator. I dont think any hunter would want to be identified with a group like PETA.

And Loyd if your not a moderator here I apologize. I see that sign by at least 4 names on this thread and I thought it odd that one who was a moderator would identify the people who thought differently with a anti hunting group. And everyone with that is identified as such seemed to be taking a side.
Having done much more reading here than posting I see Mikey is the moderator.   And that is my error . I saw the Moderator Icon next to some names and assumed they moderated this forum.

And Loyd you said you speak your mind. Well I felt compelled to also
And yes, I know more guys agree with you than me and Im fine with that. I just had a problem with that PETA remark. And I know you didnt say it but the first one to bring that into the discussion has the moderator icon next to his screen name. And then the whole discussion was about how much pain deer feel and so on.

And just like you I hunt ,kill, and eat animals. Lets just say we see this differently
I wont comment any more. Its not worth it. And I do not want to be offensive.

[sidewinder319]

The negative views on this hunt seem misdirected. I do think when posting any kind of kill the hunter should refrain from the boasting and celebting on the video.  The fact that he made a clean kill at a long distance should not be judged with what ifs. The facts are far more Prairie Goats are wounded each year at distances under 100 yards.  The Antelope are shot from roads and truck beds, moving vehicles etc. Yes this is illegal but on the open ranges of Wyoming shooters are seldom caught. Too many Goats are shot and left in the Sage Brush because the horns were not what the shooter wanted. Another common problem is sheep herders gut shoot them so they wander  away from the flocks before dying. So why pile on this well prepared with in the law hunter?? I can see a big lack of western hunting experience in these condescending post.

[Lloyd Smale]

doulos anyone that is a moderator anywhere on greybeards has that by there name. In reality the only place you can moderate is the exact fourm you are the moderator in. You may not like my rough callous way of talking about hunting but its reality. Were not out there shooting animals in a vidio game were killing things. Shoot a living creature with a gun or bow and it suffers period, unless maybe you hit it right in the brain bucket. Even then ive seen them kick a bit on the ground. Why is it guys get all conserned about deer suffering and dont give a rats a## if a ground hog isnt hit just perfectly or even a pig. ANYONE that has ground hog hunted has had mulitple animals crawl off in a day. Do they deserve anything less then a deer. Do you think they dont want to live as much as a deer does?  Should we then be making sure all of our shots come under a 100 yards so we can hit the vitals of that little animal. Thats what i mean about the hypocritical standards here. Another thing is limiting range. If he can shoot well at that distance and knows how to dope wind why should i judge him. I know for a fact i can stand on my hind feet with an open sighted sixgun and outshoot anyone at our camp at 200 yards with scoped rifles in there hands. So then am i wrong if i shoot a deer at 200 yards off hand with a sixgun or are they wrong for trying the same shot with there rifle. You have to keep in mind that most people, yes even the ones here, do alot more talking about shooting then they do actually shooting. Most are actually poor shots. Because they themselves couldnt make a certian shot they claim its a stunt rather then put in the work to get good enough to make it.
 
I personaly wouldnt try a 1000 yard shot with a handgun. Why? because im not good enough. Bottom line though is theres many handguns shooters better then me out there. I have gotten into this same argument with others on other forums about this same thing using rilfes though. I do crop damage deer shooting. I shoot between 50 and a 100 deer a year. Many at between 400-500 yards. Now ill get people that jump down my throat about even doing that. They say it isnt ethical (can you believe it  ) Now ive got a number of rilfes that will group well within 5 inches at that range and can shoot them well enough to take advantage of it. 90 percent of the posters who belittle me for it are just like i wrote earlier. Guys who maybe shoot 50 rounds a year out of all there guns combined. They couldnt shoot a 5 inch group at 300 yards with a gun that was capable of half that. Because its beyond there ability rather then admitt they are just a poor shot or an inexperienced shooter they find it easier to judge me.
 
Bottom line is i dont care what your self imposed limits are. Its probably good that you actually have some. But dont judge me by your skill level. Its very simular to saying Jimmy Johnson is a danger to other drives driving along side of them at 180mph because you cant do it.
 
As to posting the video. I dont care for that much either because again the antis use crap like that. But i do know that if he claimed it and didnt provide proof hed would have been called a bald faced lier instantly. Heck they still call elmer keith a lier!! Bottom line is he made a shot that very few of us could even have came close on. To me it was pretty impressive. Why cant it be left alone for what it was. Like was said theres many hunters who do things like kill and leave animals to rot or intentionaly wound animals so they run off. Why dont we zero in on those pigs instead! He made a good shoot and he made a legal shot and hes eating the meat. What more does he have to do?

[Mikey]

doulos:  I am the moderator on this forum and am listed at the top of the forum as such.  Most forums here at Greybeard have a moderator or moderators and none that I know of attempt to moderate another moderator's forum unless they are concerned about a post or posts that violate the rules of this site, and then they usually either let the forum moderator know of a potential problem or contact one of the global moderators who have the ability and authority to moderate forums as the need arises. 
 
I will agree with you that most hunters I know would loathe being identifed with peta, unless it means 'people eating tasty animals' and I think the Antelope in the OP's post fits that bill as does the OP who, I hope, thoroughly enjoyed that tasty animal. 
 
No one on this forum, especially this moderator or any of the other moderators I know of who have posted to this thread would ever tell you that you cannot speak your mind here on these forums when addressing some of these topics.  We will all tell you however that you cannot make your responses or postings personal or personally demeaning or insulting and if you are not familiar with the rules here at Greybeard Outdoors, please refresh yourself. 
 
You can agree or disagree all you want and you may even take great personal disdain for those hunters who take loooong shots like the OP took but please do not make your comments personal or personally direct them in such a way that someone you are responding to takes it as personally insulting.  That's all.  And by the way, welcome to the forum.  Mikey.

[bulletstuffer]

Can't argue with that post.  It is all a matter of perspective.
 
Bulletstuffer