Author Topic: Black powder substitutes; ok? (Read 1236 times)

Co. Batguano · « **on:** July 08, 2011, 12:51:40 PM »

I recall reading some time ago that Pyrodex didn't work too well in beer can sized mortars for some reason. Do the now more common substitutes, such as Shockey's Gold, triple 7 etc work ok? Do they maybe work in cannons but not in mortars? And, do you use the same grade of powder (Fg=Fg, FFg=FFg) for them?

For instance, I was warned NOT to use the substitutes in black powder rifles that use a flintlock for their ignition. Stick with black powder for those.

And, on a related note, do you guys use a finer grade of powder for blank loads vs. projectile loads?

dominick · « **Reply #1 on:** July 08, 2011, 01:09:53 PM »

It's not the best stuff for cannons. For mortars, it horrible. Years ago, I filled the powder chamber of a soda can mortar with some Pyrodex RS [250 grains], dropped in an empty tennis ball and the pyrodex charge was good for an altitude of about 20 feet. Same size load of Goex BP and the ball went out of sight.

I don't know about the flintlocks but I use real black powder in mine. Also, I use a finer powder for salute charges in the very heavy short barrel mortars such as the Dictator.

keith44 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 08, 2011, 01:18:16 PM »

I do not and will not use the substitutes. My reasoning may be different than other peoples, but for me it all comes down to pressures and internal ballistics. While I do not have pressure data on the other stuff you mention, I have enough side by side data comparing Goex 2f and 3F with Elephant 2F and 3F to Pyrodex and Pyrodex Select. In every case the pyro loads have significantly higher pressures (nearly double in some cases) and yet only yield a few fps extra velocity. When comparing pyro RS to Goex 2F in a .54 cal rifle with a 1:60 twist rate loaded with a patched roundball 80 grains of Goex 2F yields 1442 fps at a pressure of 3,800 psi. The same rifle loaded with 80 grs of RS and the same patched roundball yields 1555 fps but at a pressure of 6,000 psi.

Add to this that real black has better "lift" in mortars and cannons and offers better obturation on conical projectiles. Plus, as over 300 years history has shown, real black does in fact clean up with water. I'm gonna abstain from substitutes and plastics.

Keith

GGaskill · « **Reply #3 on:** July 08, 2011, 02:16:43 PM »

In my experience, the problem with Pyrodex is you cannot get the pressure high enough in a cannon or mortar for it to burn efficiently. The sectional density of typical projectiles just does not provide enough resistance (inertia) for the pressure to build to the point that Pyrodex performs well. The manufacturer initially offered a cannon grade Pyrodex but it was withdrawn from the market eventually.

Stick with real black powder, even if it is harder to find.

Double D · « **Reply #4 on:** July 08, 2011, 02:44:39 PM »

For smaller cannons that are equivalent to standard rifle and pistol calibers use loading data for those calibers.

For larger calibers where wads are not used and any caliber using windage you will have issues with synthetics.

For the absolute dead correct answer contact the manufacturer of the powder for recommendations.

Just keep in mind that all the synthetics are smokeless powder and all unlike black powder leave corrosive residue.

Microboomer · « **Reply #5 on:** July 08, 2011, 05:05:24 PM »

Let's not forget that even if you get pyrodex to work for you, you don't get as much of a BOOM!

Co. B, if you're having trouble finding the real deal, you might check with Gander Mountain - looks like there's a few in your neck of the woods. A few months ago I checked with a number of locally owned gunshops and they all said the same thing - " We used to carry it, but the ATF restrictions made have made it too much of a nuisance to carry these days". Since I'm currently making very small pieces I didn't want to order 5 lbs over the internet. Searching on various forums I found that many had found Goex at the big stores like Gander Mountain and Bass Pro. They have to keep it in a magazine so you won't find it out with all the substitutes - you have to ask. I had to drive a ways to a Bass Pro Shop to find it, but it was worth it!
Still a bit grumpy that I wasn't able to to support a local business, though.

andy

keith44 · « **Reply #6 on:** July 08, 2011, 05:14:31 PM »

Between the cannons and my muzzle loading rifles (and soon to be shotgun) I keep at least 2# on hand and re-order 5 or 6 pounds when I open pound number two.

Double D · « **Reply #7 on:** July 08, 2011, 05:31:27 PM »

2 lbs at a time...you need more cannons!!!

keith44 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 08, 2011, 08:23:32 PM »

Quote from: Double D on July 08, 2011, 05:31:27 PM

2 lbs at a time...you need more cannons!!!

Yes I think so too but the wife says "HAAAAAAAAAAAH"

RocklockI · « **Reply #9 on:** July 08, 2011, 08:40:47 PM »

2 LBS

Holy guacamole ! Dude RUN dont walk and call up Goex right now .

You are almost out of powder !

BTW you can store some at my house !

I saw a can of Pyrodex way back B4 the factory blew up in about ' 1980 or so iirc ,but I never owned any

.

gunsonwheels · « **Reply #10 on:** July 08, 2011, 09:08:05 PM »

Back in the day...

1971 Congress passed the Omnibus Crime Control Act limiting the buy/posess law to five pounds of BP. Some of us tried PyroDex but decided real quickly if P. Barnett and the Indiana Sportsman's Council were not successful with Sentate Bill 1096 we were all (the ordnance shooters and re-inactors) in really deep trouble... i.e."out of business". PD wasn't going to do it... at least not for us.

Has anyone out there really had good luck with Pyrodex in ordnance? If so what were the particulars? (Bore, live-fire vs. salutes, scale, etc.)

keith44 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 08, 2011, 09:17:45 PM »

alright alright, that's why I re-order at two pounds. Sheesh you'd think I was hunting mice with a 32 pdr or something.

hmmm...

subdjoe · « **Reply #12 on:** July 08, 2011, 10:43:42 PM »

The unreasonable, reactionary part of me wants to climb up on a soapbox and rant and rave about substitutes being anathema and works of the devil, and its advocates heretics who should be staked out on ant hills.

But the calm, reasoning part of me says that would be petty and mean spirited, so I'm not going to do it.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #13 on:** July 09, 2011, 01:52:03 AM »

The best part of using the substatutes is the laughter of observers when the piece goes off with a wimpy POOOOFFF instead of a mighty BOOOOM!

Double D · « **Reply #14 on:** July 09, 2011, 04:02:59 AM »

Quote from: gunsonwheels on July 08, 2011, 09:08:05 PM

Back in the day...

1971 Congress passed the Omnibus Crime Control Act limiting the buy/posess law to five pounds of BP. Some of us tried PyroDex but decided real quickly if P. Barnett and the Indiana Sportsman's Council were not successful with Sentate Bill 1096 we were all (the ordnance shooters and re-inactors) in really deep trouble... i.e."out of business". PD wasn't going to do it... at least not for us.

Has anyone out there really had good luck with Pyrodex in ordnance? If so what were the particulars? (Bore, live-fire vs. salutes, scale, etc.)

To so no one is mislead, the law now says you can buy 50 lbs at a time.

keith44 · « **Reply #15 on:** July 09, 2011, 06:32:39 AM »

Quote from: subdjoe on July 08, 2011, 10:43:42 PM

... anathema ...

Had to get the dictionary out for that one Joe. For those of us who use smaller words and speak more slowly why not just say accursed, or loathed or hated?? I've actually heard those words before.

subdjoe · « **Reply #16 on:** July 09, 2011, 09:33:06 AM »

Quote from: keith44 on July 09, 2011, 06:32:39 AM

Quote from: subdjoe on July 08, 2011, 10:43:42 PM
... anathema ...

Had to get the dictionary out for that one Joe. For those of us who use smaller words and speak more slowly why not just say accursed, or loathed or hated?? I've actually heard those words before.

See? This forum really is educational!

Funny thing about that word is that it literally means something set aside or lifted up to the gods. Only recently (say, the last 2000 years) has it taken on the almost exclusively negative meaning.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #17 on:** July 09, 2011, 11:36:02 AM »

Alright, I'll come clean and admit to heresy, I've used bp substitutes in the past, and right now I've got a 16 OZ. container of "Goex Pinnacle" that I've got to use up. My preference has always been, and will continue to be black powder, but situations arise and you got to roll with the punches. Last Christmas a cousin gave me the Goex replica black powder in FFFg (I asked for Goex FFg), and instead of asking for the receipt then driving two hours round trip to return it, I was just plain lazy and decided to keep it.

GLS · « **Reply #18 on:** July 11, 2011, 04:03:01 AM »

In firing the two new mortars I got from Dom you might have noticed in the video there was more 'poop' then 'pop'. When cleaning up I noticed I used the wrong powder flask and was using the Pyrodex I had used in the handgonne. Works fine for the handgonne but less than spectacular for the mortars. Got to get out and retry the motars with the right stuff.

Co. Batguano · « **Reply #19 on:** July 11, 2011, 01:39:48 PM »

I shoot a 1" bored 1841 I got from Ed at HMR, and his beer can bored coehorn. that too has a 1" chamber. (The cannon gives a more satisfying boom however.) I guess those are on the cusp of being a "normal" rifle bore. Haven't bought any of the substitutes yet, but thinking I MAY, if only for my "to be acquired" and contrived need for a 50 cal bp rifle.

And, as most bp rifles can't take the stress of the higher pressures due to the method in which the breech plug is attached. Since most cannons and mortars have their breeches bored out of a single billet of steel, they SHOULD be strong enough. Couldn't they withstand smokeless powder charges? I mean, in the old bp cartridge guns (like the 45-70 Gov't) they shoot smokeless loads these days. Couldn't we work up something similar for our muzzle loading artillery? What would you use? Something slow like H 870? The question is posed as an academic one primarily, rather than one of advocacy.

GGaskill · « **Reply #20 on:** July 12, 2011, 12:04:22 PM »

Couldn't they withstand smokeless powder charges?

Of course they could stand some kind of smokeless charge but the question is how much of what? Slow burning propellants like H870 require a lot of pressure to burn efficiently and there is much less inertia in a cannon shot due to the spherical shape than there is in a typically shaped rifle bullet.

Since smokeless is something like three times as powerful for the same volume, you would have a problem with the charge being so small that handling and ignition would be problems.

Another major problem would be the tendency of smokeless powders to burn faster as the pressure increases which leads to KABOOMs. Thus the general rule to use only black powder or tested substitutes in muzzle loading guns of all types.

If you have pressure testing instrumentation, you could develop smokeless loads for muzzle loading artillery but without pressure measurements, you are really swimming in unknown waters.

Besides, if you want to play with really high performance cannon, join the Army.

armorer77 · « **Reply #21 on:** July 12, 2011, 12:27:47 PM »

Years ago I read that Hercules Unique was formulated as the first smokeless powder to take into account that it might be loaded into old BP weapons . I have NOT tested this information . Ed

keith44 · « **Reply #22 on:** July 12, 2011, 02:44:24 PM »

Quote from: armorer77 on July 12, 2011, 12:27:47 PM

Years ago I read that Hercules Unique was formulated as the first smokeless powder to take into account that it might be loaded into old BP weapons . I have NOT tested this information . Ed

Used for black powder cartridge smokeless loads, and light ones at that.

Double D · « **Reply #23 on:** July 12, 2011, 05:36:36 PM »

But since this is a blackpowder cannnon and mortar forum, we won't even get into smokeless powders in cannon discussion at all...it is a matter of safety..

subdjoe · « **Reply #24 on:** July 12, 2011, 07:14:29 PM »

I've never seen powder smoke. Dip maybe, but not smoke.