Holder should resign.

[powderman]

Your Tax Dollars were Used to Purchase Guns and Run Them into Mexico
-- Time for Attorney General Eric Holder to resign

Well, the other shoe has dropped. We’ve known for several months that the Obama Administration was turning a blind eye to -- and even encouraged -- suspected gun smugglers who were purchasing firearms from gun stores in the southwest.

However, now we know the rest of the story: Your tax money was used to buy many of those guns that were later sent to Mexico.

But why? That’s the recurring question. Why would the Obama Administration -- that is filled with anti-gun cronies -- knowingly approve the sales of firearms to bad guys? Why would they knowingly put thousands of guns “into the wrong hands,” when they’ve spent years advocating gun control laws to supposedly get guns “out of the wrong hands.”

To get the stunning answer to that question … and to see what gun owners like you can do to hold the Obama Administration accountable … please read the entire alert here. 

[Lost Farmboy]

  Why let him off so easy? This is a major crime!

[us920669]

Yeah, he needs to be grilled like a hot dog on the 4th of July.  I want to see him twisting slowly in the wind.  Maybe this is the scandal they were hinting at last winter, that goes all the way to Obama.  Just what you would expect from someone mixed up with ACORN.

[powderman]

Yes it's serious and you can bet the obamination knew all about it. All planned to make it look like the American gunowners fault and thereby try to disarm us. Heads should roll. POWDERMAN. 

[yellowtail3]

I'll watch this.

[djl4570]

Sit back, take your blood pressure meds and crack open a cold one.

Here's some background for anyone who hasn't been following the scandal.   Will the Justice Department be held to account for arming lethal Mexican cartels?

Rumors began to fly over a week ago that a .50 BMG weapon supplied to Mexican drug cartels by the U.S. Justice Department’s Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) was used to bring down a Mexican military helicopter in May. According to CBS News, the use of that weapon can be confirmed ...
...
To date, the ATF operation, which encouraged gun shops in the American southwest to sell weapons to suspected criminals and let them carry the weapons across the border, has resulted in an estimated 150 Mexican law enforcement officers and soldiers shot with ATF-supplied weapons.
...
At least two American law enforcement officers have been murdered with ATF weapons as well. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was killed with “Gunwalker” firearms in Arizona, while ICE Special Agent Jaime Zapata was killed in an ambush in Mexico with a gun the ATF allowed to be sold to a cartel gun smuggler in Dallas.  ... 

Committee on Oversight and Government Reform - Report: Four ATF Agents Working on Controversial Operation ‘Fast and Furious’ Tell their Story  Too much to quote here.   Poke the link and read the summary.   You know you want to.   

Gunwalker: The ATF’s Kenneth Melson Blows the Whistle on the Justice Department

In a blockbuster development in the Operation Fast & Furious gun-running scandal, Acting ATF Director Kenneth Melson secretly testified before House and Senate investigators on July 4 with his own personal lawyer present, former United States Attorney Richard Cullen, without the knowledge of the ATF or the Department of Justice.

Not sure what to make of this.   He could be a civil servant performing his duty or he could be another bureaucrat covering his arse.   

Mega-Scandal: Was ‘Gunwalker’ a PR Op for Gun Control?

The most damning revelations coming out of the hearings on Operation Fast and Furious held by the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform are the unmistakable indications that the program was never designed to succeed as a law enforcement operation at all.

A quartet of Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) agents and supervisors turned into whistleblowers to bring the operation down, but only after U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was gunned down in the Arizona desert. Two of the weapons recovered at the scene of Terry’s murder were traced to the operation.

Email Confirms ‘Gunwalker’ Known Throughout Justice Department

An email cited in Senator Charles Grassley’s testimony in front of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee on Operation Fast and Furious indicates that knowledge of the program was spread across the highest levels of the Justice Department.

Exposed: The secret guns sting that backfired on the US 

The lethal fallout from a botched operation by the US Department of Justice which allowed almost 2,000 illegally purchased firearms to be transported from the streets of Arizona to drug gangs in Mexico has been laid bare in a scathing Congressional report, which concludes that it resulted in countless deaths.

A mixture of arrogance, over-confidence, and staggering ineptitude by the Department's Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives [ATF] was outlined in a 51-page investigation by two Republican members of a House panel charged with getting to the bottom of what went wrong during a two-year operation called "Fast and Furious".

  This is an excellent summary of the scandal from a British perspective.   I recommend it. 

[Junior1942]

Hey, PM, did you call for AG John Ashcroft to resign after he spent $12,000,000 prosecuting Tommy Chong for bong possession?  That was a fine use of tax dollars, huh?

[nw_hunter]

Hey, PM, did you call for AG John Ashcroft to resign after he spent $12,000,000 prosecuting Tommy Chong for bong possession?  That was a fine use of tax dollars, huh?

Are you saying you have a problem going after these Federal thugs for the crimes, the lives lost they are responsible for?.So instead of putting the blame where it belongs, you want to blame past adm's. for their crimes huh? "IMO"Ashcroft was a piece of crap also, but what in heavens name does he have to do with this?

Statements like these are what D and R's are good at.Blame the last rat.........You know! The one before your rat!.

[powderman]

NW_HUNTER. Well said Sir.
junior. Your messiah and his co conspirators have cost American lives, it aint about money. POWDERMAN. 

[yellowtail3]

I've noted that some habitually refer to President Obama as "your messiah" or "the messiah" - what's up with that? I can't recall President Obama ever claiming to be anybody's messiah, and... I've not heard any of his supporters refer to him as their messiah. Of course, that may not matter... ?

So, what prompts those who hate President Obama, to refer to him as your messiah?

Whattup wit dat? Messiah?!?

[Empty Quiver]

Hey, PM, did you call for AG John Ashcroft to resign after he spent $12,000,000 prosecuting Tommy Chong for bong possession?  That was a fine use of tax dollars, huh?

Am I to understand that if T Chong had walked without charges you would be all about holding those responsible for this accoutable? Do you believe these folks were absolutely INCOMPETANT or are they COMPLICANT. Either answer should mean being relieved from their position and complicancy should yeild jail time.
 
 
Holder is not stupid, he may not have given the individual orders but sure as heck set the tone and direction this operation was intended to go. I'm not supposed to believe his first exposure was reading about this in the newspaper am I? He should have gone crazy firing people the instant this came to his attention. This was to be a win, win, American gun owners and FFL's lose rights and more "illegally" sold US sourced guns found in the hands of cartel members. How better to find the guns than to follow them making sure they got across  the border.
 
They tried their best to hang the gunshop for this, likely pissed them off to find the shop was taping ALL the shenanigans and covering themselves many times over.

[yellowtail3]

They tried their best to hang the gunshop for this, likely pissed them off to find the shop was taping ALL the shenanigans and covering themselves many times over.

 I need to find out about this..

[Empty Quiver]

I've noted that many call Obama "your messiah" or "the messiah" - what's up with that? I can't ever recall President Obama claiming to be anybody's messiah, and... I've not heard any of his supporters refer to him as their messiah.

So, what prompts those who hate President Obama, to refer to him as your messiah?

Whattup wit dat?Messiah?!?

Likely the combination of the Mount Olympus presentation at his party nomination, and the desciple like addoration shown (in the media) by so many students and "people of color".  This is little removed from those refering to G Bush jr. as a blue eyed devil, or trying to infer he is stupid. In my mind the term refers to and is meant to be a slur towards those who adore Obama, rather than the man himself. It seems to hit the desired target as those supporters of the President HATE the term.
 
The tingle up Olbermans leg at the inauguration? Comparisons to Lincoln? ( I grew up in Illinois and am a fair student of the man and O ain't no Lincoln) I'm thinking most of his constituancy can't use the word Messiah in a sentence let alone refer to someone by the title.

[subdjoe]

I've noted that some habitually refer to President Obama as "your messiah" or "the messiah" - what's up with that? I can't recall President Obama ever claiming to be anybody's messiah, and... I've not heard any of his supporters refer to him as their messiah. Of course, that may not matter... ?

So, what prompts those who hate President Obama, to refer to him as your messiah?

Whattup wit dat? Messiah?!?

I heard his followers here in Calif call him a savior.  Also "The One" playing off of "Jesus is The One."  Then add in the religious fervor they put into preaching his words and worth.  He is as close to a god as many of his followers have.

[powderman]

I heard his followers here in Calif call him a savior.  Also "The One" playing off of "Jesus is The One."  Then add in the religious fervor they put into preaching his words and worth.  He is as close to a god as many of his followers have.
 
 
YEP. To some here he is spotless, not a blemish, without sin, never made a mistake. POWDERMAN. 

[yellowtail3]

I've noted that many call Obama "your messiah" or "the messiah" - what's up with that? I can't ever recall President Obama claiming to be anybody's messiah, and... I've not heard any of his supporters refer to him as their messiah.

So, what prompts those who hate President Obama, to refer to him as your messiah?

Whattup wit dat?Messiah?!?

This is little removed from those refering to G Bush jr. as a blue eyed devil, or trying to infer he is stupid. In my mind the term refers to and is meant to be a slur towards those who adore Obama, rather than the man himself. It seems to hit the desired target as those supporters of the President HATE the term.

Bingo... so it's an ad hominem slur, about on par with the wackjob left calling Bush chimp-in-chief. I've said before: wackjobs on the right think they've some speshul morality separating them from those on the left - evidence shows, not much diff. Says a lot more about those benighted souls using Messiah, than those directed against.

The tingle up Olbermans leg at the inauguration? Comparisons to Lincoln? ( I grew up in Illinois and am a fair student of the man and O ain't no Lincoln)

I can't account for anything olberman says, let alone any tingles....

Some here regularly address members of this forum and refer to President Obama as "[your] messiah!" - are there any posts by those members, where they touted the President as messiah?

Even one post?

YEP. To some here he is spotless, not a blemish, without sin, never made a mistake.

I have not seen a single post here indicating that, not even one. Provide a link?

[mirage1988]

Yellow-
Here are some pictures of of 'o' that show the messiah affect. I'm sure the halos are just bad lighting though
 
http://www.centerforinquiry.net/forums/viewthread/4096/

[us920669]

No question, there was a nauseating amount of fawning adulation early in his term.  The Washington Post editorial page announced that he was a great president before he had even been inaugurated.  And don't forget the Nobel Prize.  Fast and Furious might dim the luster a bit.


Yellowtail, you looked better in your hunting hat, or maybe standing on the U boat bridge - that was you, right?

[Junior1942]

Some here regularly address members of this forum and refer to President Obama as "[your] messiah!" - are there any posts by those members, where they touted the President as messiah?

Even one post?

You'll find no such post from members such as myself.  However, you'll find hundreds of religious right fringe element posts claiming Obama is the messiah.  That's kinda weird, if you ask me.

[yellowtail3]

Yellowtail, you looked better in your hunting hat, or maybe standing on the U boat bridge - that was you, right?

Naw, that was Jurgen Prochnow. Only commissioned sub I've even been aboard was USS Snook (SSN-592) and that was as a guest many years ago. Only bridges I've ever stood watches on were atop a DDG, an FFG, and an MSO.

[nomosendero]

Some here regularly address members of this forum and refer to President Obama as "[your] messiah!" - are there any posts by those members, where they touted the President as messiah?

Even one post?

You'll find no such post from members such as myself.  However, you'll find hundreds of religious right fringe element posts claiming Obama is the messiah.  That's kinda weird, if you ask me.

What is even more wierd is to see that some folks are still Obamanites, even after watching
his pitiful performance. There is no need to reason with those folks, they are beyond salvaging.

[Casull]

 

Hey, PM, did you call for AG John Ashcroft to resign after he spent $12,000,000 prosecuting Tommy Chong for bong possession?  That was a fine use of tax dollars, huh?

     Nice, well thought out response to the thread.   

[djl4570]

Hey, PM, did you call for AG John Ashcroft to resign after he spent $12,000,000 prosecuting Tommy Chong for bong possession?

Tommy Chong was not prosecuted for bong possession.   Chong was prosecuted for his part in financing and promoting Chong Glass/Nice Dreams, a company started by his son Paris.  Chong’s case never went to trial; instead Chong accepted a plea agreement with the United States Attorney for Western Pennsylvania's Office in which he admitted to distributing 7,500 bongs and water pipes on the Internet through Nice Dreams.   

I would agree that the resources were squandered but like it or not Ashcroft and his minions were enforcing the law.   

Your introduction of this argument into this thread is a red herring.   This thread was about AG Holder and his role in Gunwalker.    An federal law enforcement operation that has allowed some two thousand guns purchased by straw buyers cross the border into Mexico where they have been used to kill at least one hundred and fifty Mexican law enforcement officers and two US Federal agents.   

[nomosendero]

Hey, PM, did you call for AG John Ashcroft to resign after he spent $12,000,000 prosecuting Tommy Chong for bong possession?

Tommy Chong was not prosecuted for bong possession.   Chong was prosecuted for his part in financing and promoting Chong Glass/Nice Dreams, a company started by his son Paris.  Chong’s case never went to trial; instead Chong accepted a plea agreement with the United States Attorney for Western Pennsylvania's Office in which he admitted to distributing 7,500 bongs and water pipes on the Internet through Nice Dreams.   

I would agree that the resources were squandered but like it or not Ashcroft and his minions were enforcing the law.   

Your introduction of this argument into this thread is a red herring.   This thread was about AG Holder and his role in Gunwalker.    An federal law enforcement operation that has allowed some two thousand guns purchased by straw buyers cross the border into Mexico where they have been used to kill at least one hundred and fifty Mexican law enforcement officers and two US Federal agents.

Now there you go introducing logic once again.
 
The introduction of the "Chong" thing into this discussion is amazing, as though a valid comparison could be made between wasting money & the subject of this tread, which involves
the losing of lives, is quite telling for the poster who tried for whatever pathetic reason.

[Junior1942]

The first four words of this topic: "Your Tax Dollars were Used ...."
If that isn't about waste of tax dollars, John Ashcroft was a good AG.

[Casull]

Oh, I should also post the following in case junior again attempts to make a point.  The underlying article was NOT about the waste of tax dollars (hell, maybe they got a good price on the guns), but rather about the government buying guns for CRIMINALS. 

[Junior1942]

These back and forth insults boil down to one basic fact: One AG spent a small but unknown amount of tax dollars on guns, and another AG spent a certified $12,000,000+ on bongs and doper DVDs.  Which was the greatest waste of tax dollars? Hello? Hello?

[mirage1988]

These back and forth insults boil down to one basic fact: One AG spent a small but unknown amount of tax dollars on guns, and another AG spent a certified $12,000,000+ on bongs and doper DVDs.  Which was the greatest waste of tax dollars? Hello? Hello?

Actually it was 10 million dollars allocated in the "stimulus" package for project gunrunner. Explain that away junior! That money we were told was to stimulate the american economy, not provide AK's to the mexi drug mafia. Are you that ignorant that you believe the cow excrement that comes out of your mouth or are you just here to stir the pot?

[carbineman]

The Halfrican or Holder or this guy seemed to know about Fast and Furious as they refer to it by name. Seems they forgot they launched it.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PNhYk9NuNc

Junior and others after watching and using logic I was not a real fan of the GW Bush presidency(though I voted for him) but you guys sticking up for Obama or just thinking he is doing a good job is delusional. I can't look at his(Obama's) performance any other way.

[nw_hunter]

The Halfrican or Holder or this guy seemed to know about Fast and Furious as they refer to it by name. Seems they forgot they launched it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PNhYk9NuNc

Junior and others after watching and using logic I was not a real fan of the GW Bush presidency(though I voted for him) but you guys sticking up for Obama or just thinking he is doing a good job is delusional. I can't look at his(Obama's) performance any other way.

Getting back to the subject at hand!...........Should Holder resign? My answer is YES!, but shouldn't be given the chance. He should be fired, and prosecuted.