I am now a bit Gunshy

[gjdykeman]

This is my own hand. 270 hand fitted on a new CBA frame. A5744, 130g bullet. I will not be reloading any bottleneck cartridges any more. "EVER". Finger will be removed from first knuckle. No other issues, lucky. Police have the firearm and ammo for forensic testing. Pictures will follow when they are done with it. Barrel split from receiver end 14" and receiver destroyed.

[45-70.gov]

that  is scary


lucky   no eye injury


any other injury?


any clues  or guesses what happened??


my son  lost that same part of his  hand....my left thumb doesn't work right....you will be  ok
i  had to shoot with my other hand for a few years.......grip safety  on 1911 gives me fits

[quickdtoo]

Sorry to hear that, glad you're still here to tell us about it! 

Tim

[gjdykeman]

Detonation? Double Charge? Obstruction? Police seem to think firearm failure. They  are contacting H&R. Opinion is even a double charge would not have done this. I disagree. One mistake is all it takes. Rifle reloading is out the door. Pistols OK. This was a light load project??? 

[quickdtoo]

Barrel obstruction....maybe a stuck round ball?

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,234254.msg1099316881.html#msg1099316881

[gjdykeman]

The police and game commission don't think it was an obstruction, they say the barrel would have split at the obstruction and not the whole barrel. My opinion is a double charge, 56g of A5744. Although this is an over charge, not a double. The people investigating are experienced. The elusive "detonation" is the top choice so far. I am still missing a finger and a firearm. I was told a bolt gun would not have exploded??? An opinion.

[mechanic]

I've seen numerous bolt guns split the barrel at the base as well.  If you notice, the Handi is heavier steel than many bolts.  Whatever caused it, I hope you recover well.
 
Best wishes,
 
Ben

[quickdtoo]

My opinion is a double charge, 56g of A5744. Although this is an over charge, not a double.

A double charge would certainly do it, Quickload predicts the pressure at 160,673psi with 56gr AA5744 under a 130gr Hornady!    That's with a COL of 3.340" and is 4% compressed which you may not notice without a visual check of the charged case. FWIW, I've shot a lot of AA5744 in the 45-120 with well under 50% load density, never had a hint of a problem, 28gr in the 270 is a 52% load density, depending on the COL of course.

Just glad you lived to tell about it with most of your body parts.

Tim

[gendoc]

I was told a bolt gun would not have exploded???

if the experianced ones told you that, then i know just how experianced they are
i'm glad your ok to tell us about it
 
 

[quickdtoo]

I was told a bolt gun would not have exploded???

They need to get out more! 

Tim

[LanceR]

Well, you can forget the talk of a double charge because you could not fit 112 grains of powder in a 270 case.  Double charges are possible with most pistol cartridges but nearly impossible with centerfire bottleneck cartridges.  Unless you missed the heap of powder on the bech after double charging the case that is very unlikely to have been the cause.

As far as the police and game commission folks go, I doubt any of them have any professional training in test-to-destruction internal ballistics procedures like the folks at some of the firearms industry R&D departments or the folks at Aberdeen Proving Grounds who regularly test everything from pistols to 155mm howitzers to destruction.  I seriously doubt you could get anything but an opinion from any of them and that carries no weight.

Damage that far up the barrel tends to argue for a barrel obstruction.  The only time I have ever seen something like that was also with reloads.  The prior round was likely just a primer and not any powder.  It seems to have pushed the bullet a few inches up the barrel and the next round spit the barrel just like you described.

The shooter was in the middle of a 5 shot rapid fire string in a high power rifle match.  He stated after the blast that he pulled the trigger on the previous shot, had nothing happen, assumed he short stroked the bolt and cycled the bolt again and then fired the shot that blew the rifle up.

He was shooting a heavy barreled pre '64 Winchester Model 70 target rifle and there have been very few rifles made more strongly that that.

A few years later I had a very similar thing happen with a nearly identical 30-06 rifle in a rapid fire string.  I  pulled the trigger and nothing happened.  I stroked the bolt, let the rifle settle back onto the bullseye and started to pull the trigger.  Then memories of the burst rifle flooded back. In a fraction of a second I decided that a match was not worth the possible consequences.  I cleared the rifle off the firing line and rodded the barrel.

Sure enough the bullet had gone about two inches up the barrel and there would have been heck of a show if I'd sent another 168 grain Sierra in behind it.

From that episode I learned to hold my loading tray under a light on the reloading bench and look down into the cases to make darn sure they all held a powder charge.  I also learned to never allow ANY interruptions while unloading until I had performed whatever step I was in the middle of to every case and had made a note of where I was in the process.

I hope you feel better soon.

Lance

[gendoc]

it only has to be loaded as tim stated.... 160,673psi with 56gr AA5744 under a 130gr Hornady, notta double.. jusa overcharge

[bikerbeans]

George,
 
I am very glad you are still with us.  I hope your healing process is fast and your life gets back to normal.
 
Take Care.
 
BB

[Farrier Matt]

Thats scary stuff, and a lot of food for thought. Everyone I know charges all their cases, then seats all their bullets. This is the reason I dont. I charge and then seat, charge/seat, etc. No chance of missing one or doubling one that way. Sorry for your mishap, that hand will feel better once it quits hurting.

[Dinny]

Fired it today. 9 rounds Trailboss 230g cast, fired fine, not accurate. 20r Unique 255g Copper plated. Good for accuracy 6" group 50y but too hot, cratered and flat primers. Then fired three rounds W231. Guess what that sucker moved, about an 8th of an inch out of the sleeve. I was using way too hot of a load also. Messed up and had about a double charge of W231. I miss read the load data. Too much powder and too heavy a bullet. Fired three rounds and quit. Blew the primers right out. Not pierced but out of the case and the shells separated. The shell on the left is the Unique, the next is the last one fired. Receiver fine, barrel looks good. Need to press er back in and pin it better. I bought a lottery ticket on the way home, I felt very lucky. Also learned a valuable lesson. Double check all data and use light bullets in the ACP.

Went to range today with my 45 ACP handy carbine. I also took the auto pistol for practice. Loaded 100 rounds, cast, linotype, 230g RN, sized 452, over a full case of TRAIL BOSS.  Recoil was mild, fired all rounds at 50y. Sound level was mild but not quiet, muffs required. Used a double rest, front on the receiver. Red dot scope. I also fired three rounds factory and three rounds Unique. The Unique rounds were Chronyed at 1200 FPS, same  bullet. The recoil was about the same for all. Different POI but not much. I zeroed the scope for the Trail boss and achieved 1 Inch average groups, but had some flyers. One out of 20. That red dot is not very precise especially with my poor eyes but in the ACP and the light loads is quit the ticket. Quick up, quick acquire, quick shot. Achieved 8” groups at 50y free hand.. This project is complete. One member here had stated, why hot rod the ACP, it is what it is. Good advice. I love it for what it is. PS I loaded up the auto pistol with these rounds. All fired, all cycled, and all hit the target. Joy.

I used 10g of unique. I actually filled the case to touching the base of the bullet and then measured. It came out to a little less than 11g. I adjusted to 10. I shoot this in my 45LC as a standard load. A stout load in the pistol but shoots well in the rifle. I will be adjusting down to about 7.5. The Trail boss I did the same and it felt and sounded like a 22LR. I will be working some more with the unique and cast. Have to repair the ACP barrel first. Fri, back to the deer camp. PS I figgured i was using about 9 to 10g W231 under a 255g bullet, bad. Manual said 5.6g under 230g bullet was max and 4.6 for 250g. I have a mold that throws 454 dia 230g bullets and i size them 452. They did shoot fine.

The blank I purchased was listed as 45 ACP. They also had listed 45 colt. As I was making an ACP that is what I bought. I  hand loaded about 50r yesterday. I loaded 20r with copper plated Flat nose listed at 451 dia with Unique. 20r, same bullet with W231. I also loaded 10r Trail boss using cast, sized to 452. These rounds did not fit well in the rifle. I lost three due to brass collapse and not belling the mouth. The cast did not chamber well. I have not slugged this barrel. I suspect this is 451 in the groves, as an ACP should. We will see. The cast bullets did not work at all in my auto. The project was for dual purpose not specifically for hunting. I am sure I can load hot for hunting in the carbine. Also the loads must fit the forcing cone in the ACP. 451 FMJ work great in the rifle, a project and interesting.

I had a big issue using W296. I load for my 45LC rifle with a generous amount of 296 under a hand cast 300g GCFN. These loads are a little stout for the pistol but shoot. Not accurate in the pistol. I purchase 255g copper plated for the pistol. I decided to try them with the same load as the cast bullets. Pop, phat, plop. No go. They did not fire. A lot of yellow powder caked in the bore and all squibs. The opinion was the powder was not suited to the load and bullets. I pulled all the rounds and don't use that powder for those bullets. I have learned I could have made it work. Deep seating, heavy crimp and muzzle up before firing, not a good deal. I now use a different powder with the copper plated and all work well. I still can't hit the broad side of a barn door with that pistol. The rifle shoots MOA with what ever i put in it.

Hear is my story, year and a half ago. New 45 BC, and had a couple of factory 454s I bummed. Fit right in. Cool. Being new to all this I asked some advice and studied. The consciences was don't do it. I didn't believe. So a bought a bag of new 454 starline brass. Just for safety I chambered one,  the new brass, did not seat, could not close, and when forced the new brass stuck in the chamber. After ramming the brass out and examining it, I found the throat had been forced into the forcing cone. Conclusion, a factory or reloaded, crimped round fit right in but the brass was laying on the forcing cone. A recipe for disaster. Same as having a barrel obstruction. Solution, trimmed the brass 1 or 2 thousandth off the brass and shot 454c loads. Worked fine. I don't do that anymore, the bruises got to be to much. As said before, my 45LC now sits on topper wood and frame and I have fired hundreds of "Ruger" level loads, deadly, no need or desire for them big bangers.

I'm really glad you're not more seriously hurt. I wish I could say that I didn't see it coming....


Thanks, Dinny

[45-70.gov]

after thinking about  it


my thought was wrong  powder......like  bullseye
a  double  or  even over charge  would be  noticeable


did  you pull apart the  un fired ammo....or have some one do it
your  kinda  down  right  now


did you check for obstruction befor  fireing??


thanks for shareing with  us.....you may  save an  eye   or a life

[Sourdough]

I've seen detonations, stuck bullets, double charges, and loads that way exceeded the Maximum loads.  All blew up the gun. 

I blew the cylinder wall out of a Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 Mag when I mistakenly grabbed some of my wife's hot carbine loads, and fired them in my pistol.  I was lucky that I or my son who was standing beside me was not hurt. 

I now am so paranoid of detonation that I have stopped using small charges in my .45LCs.  I switched to Trail Boss.

When reloading a large number of loads at a time, I always set the tray down after putting in the powder.  I take a flash lite and while standing up I look into every case.  I am standing back far enough that I will notice any difference in depth of powder in any under or over charged cases.  This also will catch any that might have escaped getting charged.  One step farther for my big stuff, (Long Range Ammo).  Since these are near maximum, after finishing I weigh each and every loaded case.  Any heavy or light cases are opened and rechecked. 

[gjdykeman]

In retrospect, my fault. A double charge. I load one at a time and look at every case. light load in a large bottleneck case is hard to see. Phone calls, TV, goofy wife, inexperience. I will not weezle out. I don't no what went wrong but "I" did something wrong. I have  to "Dinny"  thank you for the advise.  My buddy stated, if you want to shoot a 22 mag buy a 22 mag. Good advise.   

[gcrank1]

I give you credit for putting yourself 'out there' for all to see; it aint an easy thing to do........
Sure glad you didnt lose an eye, or worse; one of my best friends had his boyhood friend killed when a bolt blew back just below his eye. They were doing 'dumb' stuff.
Its a wake-up call for all of us.
Heal up, body and mind.....and stick around.

[OldSchoolRanger]

Don't know what to say except, thank God your alive, hope you feel better real soon.

[ratdog]

sad to see you got got hurt.i was lucky once i kept my 38 ruger in my truck in the winter ammo went bad fired a shot pop looked in barrel sure enough bullet in barrel.  then i took remaining ammo i had in truck and pulled the bullets.when reloading i always check all my powder levels when they are sitting in tray with a flash light before putting bullets in it only takes one screw up.

[thejanitor]

Hope you heal fast. Reloading seems pretty fun and casual since we can all own the stuff and do it, but when things get hecktic and distractions start it's time to quit for the night or a while..... I have been lucky but with kids running though the room asking this and that it is easy to get distracted.
Sorry you litteraly found out the hard way, but you were lucky. Think about it, it was about like holding a bomb just inches from your face. Could have been worse but this is bad enough.
Take care,  thejanitor
 
 

[Goatwhiskers]

Handloading is such a great hobby, but you have to be sooo careful.  Been doing it since back in the 60's and actually made only 2 real errors.  One was having a primer only in the 357Max I'm working with---why the bullet didn't go into the barrel is a mystery.  The other one scared a few years off me.  Loaded 100rds of target .38's for another guy.  When he came back by he commented on how hot the rounds were.  Don't remember the powder but the charge was supposed to 7.5gr.  Hadn't used the scale in the meantime so checked and the pea had shifted so that the charge was 12.5gr.  No wonder!  I still get chills everytime I think about it.  Even scarier was the fact that he, his buddy, and the rangemaster shot up all the cartridges.  Needless to say I now have mechanical and electronic scales, use both of them, and I don't load for other people.  Here endeth the epistle.  Goatwhiskers the Elder

[LONGTOM]

Just shows that it can & does happen more often than is reported.
The above replies is why I never heavy charge or light charge a cartridge.
If I need more power, the manuals can get me there easy without going over what is safe.
If a lot lighter load is wanted I drop to a smaller caliber.
I have loaded warm (NEVER HOT) in the past but have never loaded light for any round.
Like stated, I do a very careful check under a good light after charging all my cases along with a close inspection of the primer before putting the powder in.
So far I have never made a mistake (AND HOPE I NEVER DO) but this is a sharp reminder to be very careful in what we do.
Sorry this happened to you and am glad you were not injured worse.
You will recover and I am sure will continue to enjoy the sport of our passion.
You say never again on reloading rifle cartridges but maybe one day you will change your mind.
You will be more careful, (if that is possible) in the future.
Just because you were involved in a car accident you don't stop driving!
Take care my friend and give us an update, both on your recovery and any firm conclusions that come out of this unfortunate accident.
 
 
 
LONGTOM

[Blackhawker]

Previous comments withdrawn and additional comment posted - 7/15/11
Not being a 270 loader, I had no idea the first time I had read this (without looking it up in a load book) that you had knowledgebly overloaded that 270.  YIKES!!!  If you did it intentionally...what were you thinking?  If it was an accidetnal mischarge, then I'd look into your loading habits and change them.

[Tencubed]

I've used powder measures, weighed each charge and used dippers over the years.  Loaded one at a time and charged a full block at a time.  Always looked in each case prior to seating the bullet.


Now that my eyes are not as good as they usedtawas I've taken to keeping short pieces of wood dowel on the bench to check the level of the powder in the case.  Just throw the charge you want in a case, settle it down and put the dowel in on top of it.  Make a pencil mark and any subsequent case you check should match up.  I still look down the case mouths as well but just don't trust my vision that much on the bottlenecks.


I don't use this with the really small charges in pistol cases as it's not that accurate but for rifles with the heavier charges it works well.


We've all had things happen and, I suspect, we all went thru the "How fast can I make this bullet go?" phase if we've been loading for a number of years.  I know I did so I'm not going to cast any stones. I've blown a primer or three and shot out a few barrels that should have lasted a lot longer with a bit of common sense.  Things happen and some of us are luckier than others.


Thanks to the OP for this thread as it's a great reminder for those of us that have been in the game for years and a good object lesson to the newer practitioner of this complex hobby.


Mike

[mannyrock]

 
  I am very very sorry that this accident happened to you.  Thank God you did not lose an eye.  I would urge you to give up all reloading forever.  Here is why.
 
   I have been chastised on these boards for many years because I don't reload, and I have said that I hate to reload, and I often recommend against it.
 
   When I first started shooting rifles back in 1979, I decided to reload.  I spent alot of money on a full Lee reloading set, press, scales etc.  Back then, you had an actual swinging scale, and you had to hand weigh each charge by trickling the powder into a pan on the scale, and watching the scale bob up and down.  You then had to hand-dump the powder into the case, making sure not to spill any, and making sure you didn't do it twice to one case.
 
   I had a very high stress job, full of problems and anxiety.   Whenever I  was away from the job, and in a quiet setting, my mind was immediately back at the job, worrying and working on the problems, as if I were in a trance.
 
   What I found was that while I was reloading, I would OFTEN blink, and find myself holding a case in my hand, not knowing whether I had just poured powder into it, or whether I had picked it up from the empty case tray, or whether I had maybe picked it up from the full case tray.  I would then have to dump the case (almost always finding it empty, but once finding it charged), and start over with measuring and pouring of powder.
 
   I realized that sooner or later, an explosion was imminent, and I would lose an eye or a hand.  I have a "distracted" personality and can't stay focused on a tight and dangerous mechanical task.   
 
    Losing an eye or a hand just to save $10 on a box of .243s just didn't seem worth it.  I would be better off going into the office for two hours, and making an additional $100, and just buying 5 boxes of factory ammo.
 
   Reloading is simply NOT for everyone, and I find it problematic and wrong that it is highly recommended to everyone.  If you don't have the right mind-set, personality, and focus, it can be deadly.
 
   With all of the close calls that the original poster has had with his reloads, I think that like me, he doesn't have the personality for it, and should let it go forever.
 
Best, Mannyrock
 
 
 
 

[Blackhawker]

Mannyrock,
I would not chastise you for not reloading.  It's good that you see in yourself that you don't have the mindset for such a thing and therefore choosing not to reload was a good choice.  I'll remember your words the next time I offer recommendations to people about reloading. 
You're right; it's not for everyone.

[yukondog]

I'm very sorry that this hapend to you and it's unfortunate that something like this happens and it is a wake up call for sure, if it was your fault know this your not the only one, wile most of the time it's not as sever as yours which it could have been worse, I've blown a few primers and one time got very lucky and used the wrong powder for a 270 load, luckily the rifle was strong and held the charge, blew the primer and had to use a mallet to beat the bolt back and it etched the bolt face. Hope you heal fast and if your up to it get back on horse but if not that's OK too,I don't think anybody here will chastise you for it and if they do add them to your ignore list.

[beaverslayer]

I keep seeing people mention detonation.  Modern smokeless powders don't detonate for any reason.  They just burn faster or slower depending on the pressure and properties of the powder.  In Vietnam, special ops guys, seals and such would steal Charlies ammo, pull the bullets and put C4 in them and then put the ammo back in their ammunition depot to instill terror on them.  In those instances detonation would occur.  It takes a highly energetic  usually nitro-arromatic compound to cause a detonation and you can't get that with gun powder.  Those that contain more than one nitro group are more energetic.  Glad to see you didn't loose more than a finger.  I too am interested in what happened and hope after a recovery period that you revisit those rounds and see if there was a component error or charge problem.  Most of the time if you stick to the published data, keep a journal, stay focused, and reload only one cartridge type per sitting, you'll be ok.