Author Topic: I am now a bit Gunshy  (Read 3657 times)

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Offline Jeff O

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Re: I am now a bit Gunshy
« Reply #30 on: July 13, 2011, 09:50:20 AM »
Some time ago I recall reading about a 6.5x55 swede with a light load that blew up.  The theory was that the pressure started out low, lodged the bullet in the bore.  The delayed spike in pressure then caused it to blow up.  I am far from an expert; wish i could remember where I read that...
 
Glad you're still here to tell us about it and I wish you a speedy recovery.

Offline xhare

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Re: I am now a bit Gunshy
« Reply #31 on: July 13, 2011, 06:47:35 PM »
The worst mistake I ever made was not loading powder in a 45-70 case (shooting my Handi).  It had a primer only.  Upon pulling the trigger I just heard sound of the hammer.  I kept the gun at my shoulder for a few moments in case of a hang fire, then attempted to open the gun.  Its an older Handi with an ejector, the gun would open but the case would not eject.  The bullet had moved far enough to engage the rifling, yet was not completely out of the case.  A cleaning rod removed the bullet/case. 
 
IF...If the bullet had gone a little farther, and if I was destracted, I might have loaded another round in and pulled the trigger.  That would have been a boom.  It was a wake-up call that I remember every time I reload.  I now inspect every case for powder levels and double check powder type before seating bullets. 
 
A paranoid handloader is a safe handloader!

Offline Blackhawker

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Re: I am now a bit Gunshy
« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2011, 05:04:41 AM »
The worst mistake I ever made was not loading powder in a 45-70 case (shooting my Handi).  It had a primer only.  Upon pulling the trigger I just heard sound of the hammer.  I kept the gun at my shoulder for a few moments in case of a hang fire, then attempted to open the gun.  Its an older Handi with an ejector, the gun would open but the case would not eject.  The bullet had moved far enough to engage the rifling, yet was not completely out of the case.  A cleaning rod removed the bullet/case. 
 
IF...If the bullet had gone a little farther, and if I was destracted, I might have loaded another round in and pulled the trigger.  That would have been a boom.  It was a wake-up call that I remember every time I reload.  I now inspect every case for powder levels and double check powder type before seating bullets. 
 
A paranoid handloader is a safe handloader!
In my very early days of reloading I used a Lee Pro1000.  It was my first press and my first experience with reloading and I thought I'd be "hot stuff" and go progressive right away.  I loaded 30 carbine ammo on it for my 30 carbine Blackhawk.  One day while at the range I fired a round from the revolver and heard a slight "pop".  Because there is hardly any recoil with this round, I wasn't too surprised but the fact that I didn't see a huge flame coming out the end of the barrel, I knew something was wrong.  Sure enough, I drew the hammer back and I couldn't move it at all.  The case had no powder and the primer had enough power to push the bullet into the force cone and lock up the cylinder.  I didn't know what to do since the gun was fully loaded.  I ended up pounding the bullet back into the cylinder with a cleaning rod in order to free up the cylinder and then unload the gun.

I always remember this incident whenever I'm shooting....especially if on the rare occasion I rapid fire a gun.  I cannot help but think "what if this was an automatic and I was rapid firing it?".  Surely the bullet would have lodged in the throat of the barrel and if far enough forward, a second round would have chambered and the rest would be history.  You might say; yes, but the gun wouldn't have had the energy to cycle the brass out and load another round.  To this I ask; how many times have we had a round not chamber quite right and in haste, we've become guilty of just pulling the bolt or slide back and if a piece of brass or something ejects, we have let the bolt or slide go and then fire away?  I see this happen all of the time with other shooters at the range.  And now thinking of all of this, I cannot help but not feel safe at  any close quarters kind of range anymore.  Imagine how many guys next to us at the range might have their guns blow up when there are more than likely other loaders out there that are either beginners (as I described myself above) or just plain careless.  I guess I'm a little more aprehensive or "gun shy", as George put it, at this current time because I've heard of another similar kind of gun/ammo explosion occurance happening recently. 
 
By the way, many years ago I took that Pro 1000 loader apart and converted it to a turret press and I've been loading one step at a time.

Offline gcrank1

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Re: I am now a bit Gunshy
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2011, 05:28:00 AM »
Most of the firearms accidents I have been around have been in some form of 'rapid firing'.
The caveat is:
If, while shooting, you see, hear or feel anything abnormal in the firing of the piece, and/or do not see bullet 'splash' or a hole downrange, STOP and inspect.

And this following one should commit to memory too:
Reloading is a PRECISION manufacturing operation with only yourself as quality control.
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Offline Tencubed

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Re: I am now a bit Gunshy
« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2011, 02:38:49 PM »

  I am very very sorry that this accident happened to you.  Thank God you did not lose an eye.  I would urge you to give up all reloading forever.  Here is why.
 
   I have been chastised on these boards for many years because I don't reload, and I have said that I hate to reload, and I often recommend against it.
 
   When I first started shooting rifles back in 1979, I decided to reload.  I spent alot of money on a full Lee reloading set, press, scales etc.  Back then, you had an actual swinging scale, and you had to hand weigh each charge by trickling the powder into a pan on the scale, and watching the scale bob up and down.  You then had to hand-dump the powder into the case, making sure not to spill any, and making sure you didn't do it twice to one case.
 
   I had a very high stress job, full of problems and anxiety.   Whenever I  was away from the job, and in a quiet setting, my mind was immediately back at the job, worrying and working on the problems, as if I were in a trance.
 
   What I found was that while I was reloading, I would OFTEN blink, and find myself holding a case in my hand, not knowing whether I had just poured powder into it, or whether I had picked it up from the empty case tray, or whether I had maybe picked it up from the full case tray.  I would then have to dump the case (almost always finding it empty, but once finding it charged), and start over with measuring and pouring of powder.
 
   I realized that sooner or later, an explosion was imminent, and I would lose an eye or a hand.  I have a "distracted" personality and can't stay focused on a tight and dangerous mechanical task.   
 
    Losing an eye or a hand just to save $10 on a box of .243s just didn't seem worth it.  I would be better off going into the office for two hours, and making an additional $100, and just buying 5 boxes of factory ammo.
 
   Reloading is simply NOT for everyone, and I find it problematic and wrong that it is highly recommended to everyone.  If you don't have the right mind-set, personality, and focus, it can be deadly.
 
   With all of the close calls that the original poster has had with his reloads, I think that like me, he doesn't have the personality for it, and should let it go forever.
 
Best, Mannyrock
 
 
Mannyrock you make an excellent point and thanks for bringing this up.  I've had, over the years, a few friends that wanted to get into reloading that simply were not able to do this.  Nothing against them and it's not due to a lack of brainpower or anything like that.  Really glad you gave it a try and realized your limitations in this.


My great limitation falls in the area of these confounded computers.  Don't understand them and have to have my pre-teen grandson show me how to make the fool thing work quite often.  At least this is not life threatening.


Thanks for an informative post.


Mike
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Oldest rifle I shoot - 1854 Sharps 50-70

Offline Tencubed

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Re: I am now a bit Gunshy
« Reply #35 on: July 14, 2011, 03:09:39 PM »
I keep seeing people mention detonation.  Modern smokeless powders don't detonate for any reason.  They just burn faster or slower depending on the pressure and properties of the powder.  In Vietnam, special ops guys, seals and such would steal Charlies ammo, pull the bullets and put C4 in them and then put the ammo back in their ammunition depot to instill terror on them.  In those instances detonation would occur.  It takes a highly energetic  usually nitro-arromatic compound to cause a detonation and you can't get that with gun powder.  Those that contain more than one nitro group are more energetic.  Glad to see you didn't loose more than a finger.  I too am interested in what happened and hope after a recovery period that you revisit those rounds and see if there was a component error or charge problem.  Most of the time if you stick to the published data, keep a journal, stay focused, and reload only one cartridge type per sitting, you'll be ok.


Not wanting to start an argument here but the problem of powder detonation in cartridges has been observed for many years and, last I heard, was still considered an unsolved puzzle.


Even when P. O. Ackley, in his "Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders" Vol. 1, visited this subject the topic was considered questionable by many folks.  In the chapter concerning "Reduced Loads" he gives some examples of slow burning powders at reduced loadings giving very high pressures or destroying rifles.  One classic is when a Winchester Model 70, chambered to the 270 Page Super Pooper, was being shot with 50 grains of a popular powder.  The owner elected to try some loads at 25 grains for some reason.  The first round blew the primer, second round seemed normal and he figured the first round had been a double charge.  Third round destroyed the rifle.


Other examples are given as well.


These, and other reports written by knowledgeable persons in the firearms field that I have reason to trust, examples are enough for me to avoid playing with undercharged cartridges.  I stick to the written manuals and don't play with powder weights.


When working up a load for a wildcat I don't start with extremely low charges figuring that there won't be enough powder in the case to do any damage.  Too many times I've been told, or read of, incidents when experimenters have had bad experiences when doing this.


I doubt I'll be building any more custom rifles but I'd sure caution anyone that is playing with loads to abide by what has been published by a reputable laboratory in the firearms field.


To make a blanket statement that detonation can not happen using single or multiple based powders is to fly in the face of the opinions of many noted and respected men with many years of experience.


I was unaware that teams in the field had sabotaged enemy ammo during the war mentioned.  I did know there was a program in place that quite often was able to substitute modified ammunition that was pre-packaged to cause concern amongst the enemy troops about ammunition made for them in China.  Great care was used to avoid being discovered while doing this or of leaving any trace of the ammo having been tampered with.  Blew up a number of AKs and mortars along with the operators.


Just my opinion on all this of course.


Mike
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Oldest rifle I shoot - 1854 Sharps 50-70

Offline geezerbiker

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Re: I am now a bit Gunshy
« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2011, 07:19:59 PM »
I'm With Beaverslayer on this. The experts have tested this to death and have never been able to replicate a detonation of smokeless powder.  Every time it comes back to accidental double or triple charging of the case. 
In the case of the OP, I don't know if they will ever prove what caused the blow up.

Tony

Offline Squib

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Re: I am now a bit Gunshy
« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2011, 07:58:26 PM »
did anyone not read the posts dinny dug up, the guy admits to doublecharging all the time, calls 230gr bullets @1200 fps from a .45acp SOFT LOADS!  he seems to think "acp" and "colt" recipes are interchangable.  pierced primers, blown out primers, etcetera- in his posts before.... do you get it?  he intentionally "hot-rods" his stuff and wonders why he continues to blow up guns.  this is not an accident, negligent or ignorant.  this is plain belligerence.  I don't see how one guy intentionally going FAR BEYOND the limits and getting hurt for it makes for a frightful story to handloaders.  he got what he had coming after doing this sort of thing multiple times, so stop the pity party.

Offline Spanky

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Re: I am now a bit Gunshy
« Reply #38 on: July 15, 2011, 01:56:28 AM »
I hate that it happened but (unfortunately) I think we all saw it coming. You can only tempt fate so long. :-\  I hope for a speedy recovery.
 
 
 
Spanky

Offline wreckhog

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Re: I am now a bit Gunshy
« Reply #39 on: July 15, 2011, 02:48:16 AM »
I am so sorry. Heal fast.

Offline Tencubed

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Re: I am now a bit Gunshy
« Reply #40 on: July 15, 2011, 06:39:59 AM »
I'm With Beaverslayer on this. The experts have tested this to death and have never been able to replicate a detonation of smokeless powder.  Every time it comes back to accidental double or triple charging of the case. 

Tony


Tony:


Again I'd refer you to the P. O. Ackley Volume One of the Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders.  Read the section on "Reduced Loads" and you will find that a number of respected testing facilities have observed this "detonation" problem. 


The Ordinance Department, Speer, DuPont and other laboratories have documented examples of this occurring.  Norma posted a warning in one of their pamphlets years ago, I still have a copy of this, concerning this problem. 


While it's very difficult to reproduce there is sufficient evidence of the fact to suggest it's inadvisable to use reduced loads of slow burning powders in bottleneck cases of large volume to bore ratio.  Jack O'Connor had a 270 destroyed due to a half charge of slow burning powder.


Please acquire a copy of the volume listed, both volumes should be part of every serious shooters library IMO, and read the section listed prior to making blanket statements of the type quoted above.


Not just occurrences in this country have brought concern about reduced charge detonations, if that's truly the right term for this complex issue, but it has been observed in, that I know of, France, England and Italy.


These labs were all working with reduced loads, it is not always traceable to double or triple charges.  In many cases it results when a cartridge that is being fired with a slightly compressed charge and showing normal pressures is loaded with a much reduced load of the same powder, primer and bullet.  Every example of this of which I am aware were bottlenecked cases of large volume to bore ratio.  I've never heard of this occurring in a straight wall case.


I reply to your post not to degrade your opinion but due to the very serious nature of the problem at hand.  It's vital that folks reloading ammunition are aware of this problem and avoid the risk involved.  I know it's not an "always going to happen" kind of problem but it has occurred and will, in all likelihood, occur again.


I'm not intimating the OP's rifle blowup and resulting injuries were the result of a reduced charge but am attempting to bring to light a source of potential danger for the casual or dedicated reloader.  Hope you all take this post in the spirit it is intended.


Mike
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Offline spooked

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Re: I am now a bit Gunshy
« Reply #41 on: July 15, 2011, 07:51:18 AM »
1. I don't know what caused it. :o
2. I'll bet that smarted. :)
3. heal fast! ;)
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Offline oic0

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Re: I am now a bit Gunshy
« Reply #42 on: July 15, 2011, 10:53:27 AM »
A two stroke engine super charges its self by bouncing a pressure wave off of an angled cone. Looks a bit like a bottle necked cartridge really. Wonder if when there is too much empty space a pressure wave goes to the cone, bounces back, and causes some effect like making the powder that is there burn faster or something? I dunno, just grasping at straws.

Offline geezerbiker

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Re: I am now a bit Gunshy
« Reply #43 on: July 15, 2011, 10:54:50 AM »
" Again I'd refer you to the P. O. Ackley Volume One of the Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders.  Read the section on "Reduced Loads" and you will find that a number of respected testing facilities have observed this "detonation" problem.  "


This was tested, debunked and reported in the American Rifleman by the NRA.  Since then it's been tested and tested again. 

The OP did something stupid and smokeless powders don't detonate.  I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. 

Tony

Offline Tencubed

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Re: I am now a bit Gunshy
« Reply #44 on: July 15, 2011, 11:41:46 AM »

This was tested, debunked and reported in the American Rifleman by the NRA.  Since then it's been tested and tested again. 

  I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. 

Tony




Hi Tony


Yup, guess we just don't agree on this.  Glad we have an open forum that allows give and take.


I do remember when the NRA came out with the opinion that the problem of these rifles coming apart was not being caused by the "detonation" phenomena.  I'm a long time supporter of the NRA but realize that the testing they did at that time was not all inclusive and their final report did not take into account the reports of many respected authorities and labs.  As I recall, and I may not be remembering correctly, the tests were conducted in an independent lab using several different factory cartridges.  Standard loads were fired followed by loads which were reduced in increments until a level was reached where the bullet was apt to stick in the bore with further reduction.  Is that how you remember the test's being done?  It's been a lot of years ago and I may be mixing the NRA tests with those of the French facility which were done pretty much the same way.


Seems to me the tests were fair and conducted in a reasonable manner at any rate.  I do recall that Col. Hatcher, later General IIRC, at the time commented something about the Ordinance Dept having the same kind of results many times.  He also said they had rifles fail when working up reduced loads for training.  He had no reason why this happened and, as far as I know, never did solve the problem.


I do remember the French tests pretty much came to the conclusion that a series of pressure waves were set up in the cartridge case and when they came into phase in the correct manner is when the problem exposed itself.  Their are several other theories that have been presented over the years as you undoubtedly are aware.  All have merit of varying degrees IMO but then, I'm not smart enough to agree or disagree with any of them totally.  I did find it interesting that a test using stick Cordite, the stuff the English loaded the military 303 with, never did display the problem. 


Hope one of us, or someone at least, finds a definitive answer to this before long.  It would be interesting to have the question finally put to rest.  It's been around for at least 80 years that I know of.


I've chosen to relay on the results I've gleaned from several sources and from first hand accounts given by two people that were associated with tests when failures occurred. These were not shooting range experiences but controlled tests of high power experimental cartridges.


I applaud your researching this subject and it's one of those that can surly lead to different conclusions and beliefs.


Mike
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Oldest rifle I shoot - 1854 Sharps 50-70

Offline geezerbiker

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Re: I am now a bit Gunshy
« Reply #45 on: July 15, 2011, 02:14:16 PM »


Hi Tony


Yup, guess we just don't agree on this.  Glad we have an open forum that allows give and take.


I do remember when the NRA came out with the opinion that the problem of these rifles coming apart was not being caused by the "detonation" phenomena.  I'm a long time supporter of the NRA but realize that the testing they did at that time was not all inclusive and their final report did not take into account the reports of many respected authorities and labs.  As I recall, and I may not be remembering correctly, the tests were conducted in an independent lab using several different factory cartridges.  Standard loads were fired followed by loads which were reduced in increments until a level was reached where the bullet was apt to stick in the bore with further reduction.  Is that how you remember the test's being done?  It's been a lot of years ago and I may be mixing the NRA tests with those of the French facility which were done pretty much the same way.

Mike

It was too many years ago for me to recall the exact details and I lost all my old mags in my last move...

As I recall Ed Harris also did a bunch of testing on this when he was with Ruger and he also came to the conclusion that detonation wasn't the cause of blown up guns.  The way I see it is that Ed Harris is the last word on gun subjects 99.99% of the time... 

Tony

Offline Squib

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Re: I am now a bit Gunshy
« Reply #46 on: July 15, 2011, 02:47:03 PM »
isn't ed harris the name of the guy who played robocop?

Offline Tencubed

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Re: I am now a bit Gunshy
« Reply #47 on: July 15, 2011, 02:50:43 PM »

Hi Tony

This subject, like a lot of others, has experts lining up on both sides that's for sure.  Bruce Hodgdon, the guy that sold thousands of tons of surplus powder, did an extensive series of tests in his excellent laboratory on this subject.  He was firmly convinced there was nothing to this problem.  (Wish I could still have a 50 pound keg of 4831 powder delivered to my door by the Postal Service for $53.00. :) )


I'm a bit confused when people are not able to reproduce a seldom seen event simply say it does not exist.  But to each his own.  I've been very careful to teach my sons, and now my grandsons, to stay within the guidelines of recent reloading manuals.  Some of the information in manuals dating from the 1930's thru the '60's show loads that are considered unacceptable today.  Times change and we continue to learn more as we progress.


Been an interesting conversation and I thank you for it.


Mike
NRA Benefactor Life Member
Why do I carry a gun?  Because a Cop's too heavy.
Oldest rifle I shoot - 1854 Sharps 50-70

Offline bikerbeans

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Re: I am now a bit Gunshy
« Reply #48 on: July 15, 2011, 03:07:29 PM »
isn't ed harris the name of the guy who played robocop?

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Offline Blackhawker

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Re: I am now a bit Gunshy
« Reply #49 on: July 15, 2011, 03:09:58 PM »
Reading some of the latest comments made me go back and read the orignal post AND the OP's secondary comments.  I guess I missed the fact that this may have been admittedly an INTENTIONAL mischarge and not an accident.  Had I read Dinny's post I probably wouldn't have posted anything at all....as he so elequantly put it; I wish I could say that I didn't see it coming!  Seems you've got quite a history of doing this kind of thing.  :o
Not being a 270 loader, I had no idea that a 56 grain charge was an overload by such a HUGE margin until I just looked up the load in my Lyman manual.  HOLY CRAP!!! If you did it intentionally...what the heck were you thinking? 
If it was an accidetnal mischarge, well, OK, then I'd look into your loading habits or maybe just quit while you are still ahead and alive.
 
All I can say is that this DOES scare the B-JEEZUS out of me!!  You mean, I have to sit next to guys on the firing line that do this intentionally? ??? ?  George, you're lucky there wasn't an innocent bystander sitting next to you.  You probably would have lost a big chunk of your behind along with that finger.   ;D
 
I'm sorry I didn't read some of the later posts thoroughly the first time.    ::)

Offline gcrank1

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Re: I am now a bit Gunshy
« Reply #50 on: July 15, 2011, 03:35:46 PM »
Ed Harris is a darn good actor, see Enemy at the Gates.
C.E. 'Ed' Harris is a darn good gun guy.
Ive read everything Ive come across regarding this phemon, but not the tome mentioned above, and certainly not everything there is. IIRC, anything close to duplicating the 'detonation' effect came with very light charges of slowish powders, far less than most would use even in reduced cast bullet loads, and maybe in combination with other factors. Seems strange that in this day and age we cannot, almost at will, duplicate this so-called detonation in a lab.
Also, a lab can tell by the split and the termination if an obstruction was present, if the 'ring' is there, done deal, there was. If not you go to step two. In a lawsuit you can be sure at least one lab would be looking at this, some not unbiased.
I'll take the man at his word, for now, and just be glad he isnt hurt worse and I wasnt there.
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Offline Squib

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Re: I am now a bit Gunshy
« Reply #51 on: July 15, 2011, 03:42:09 PM »
he also stated that he's afraid of loading up anymore rifle cartridges due to increased capacity and a shoulder to make a "shape-charge" (he say's ".. no more bottleneck cartridges..", but I'm trying to put it into technical jargon) that'll explode on him... but he's okay with double charging pistols still as far as we know???  DID I MISS SOMETHING! 

Do you believe a semi-auto pistol can vent that much overpressure out the breech end of the gun with no ill effect repeatedly?  Do you not realize that you are going to beat your breechface and locking lugs to a degree that your pistols do not lock up properly and cause a no-go chamber spec and and/or out-of-battery firing which can destroy/blow even lightly loaded cartridges into an operators face?  Do you honestly think that it's okay to double charge a straight walled case, due to the lack of a shoulder to funnel/contain the pressure at a concentrated peak for a millisecond longer, or that the brass won't snap due to it lacking a definite and obvious separation point, or that the lesser capacity will mean a lesser boom?  are you thinking that the virtual inability of a straight-walled case to put that much "thrust" on your frame and person means it's not hurting your weapon?  do you understand that the barrel and case also get pressure expanding the gases inside laterally and not just forward and back?  you're trying to burst your barrel OUTWARDS with those heavy loads, not blow the blast out the end but out the sides.  you're right about a smaller case not blowing as big a blast, but the small concussion can be just as powerful though not covering as much area- meaning it'll not likely take your head apart too but it WILL take your hand apart.  a semi-auto pistol tends to break into small pieces and sub assemblies rather than shrapnel from a solid reciever on a bolt action rifle or the cylinder of a revolver, where handis fall in this I don't know.  just stick with semi-auto pistols AS FAR FROM YOUR FACE AS YOU CAN FROM NOW ON.  DO YOUR FAMILY A FAVOR AND DO NOT EVER WILL YOUR GUNS TO YOUR CHILDREN OR GRANDCHILDREN AS THEY PROBABLY HAVE STRETCHED CHAMBERS THAT ARE NOT SAAMI SPEC ANYMORE, AND FIRING PIN HOLES LARGE ENOUGH TO HAVE THE FIRING PIN AND PRIMERS BLOW BACK THROUGH THEM AT SOME POINT.  THIS WAS AN ISSUE WITH THE ORIGINAL .500 S&W BRASS AND LOAD DATA WHICH WAS WAY LIGHTER THAN WHAT YOU DO ON A REGULAR BASIS ON WEAKER GUNS.  YOU ARE TRYING TO KILL YOURSELF AND OTHERS, YOU ARE TRYING DAMN HARD TOO.

I'm really trying to get into your head and make sense of your thoughts/understanding of what happens within a metallic cartridge when fired, and I THINK I get what what you're thinking, but I DON'T GET WHY YOU THINK IT ACTUALLY MAKES SENSE!!! 

Offline Dinny

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Re: I am now a bit Gunshy
« Reply #52 on: July 15, 2011, 03:56:39 PM »

DID I MISS SOMETHING! 



Squib,
  Your point has been made. Stop kicking the dead horse.




Thanks, Dinny
Handi Family: 357 Max, 45 LC, 45-70, 300 BLK, 50 cal Huntsman, and 348 Win.

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day that my child may have peace"
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Offline Squib

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Re: I am now a bit Gunshy
« Reply #53 on: July 15, 2011, 04:20:00 PM »
will do!

Offline DaGris

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Re: I am now a bit Gunshy
« Reply #54 on: July 15, 2011, 04:27:26 PM »
well, of course it could have been worse. Glad youre ok for the most part. Just another reason I just buy ammo. I dont trust myself  ;D

Offline us920669

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Re: I am now a bit Gunshy
« Reply #55 on: July 15, 2011, 06:00:26 PM »
I think he said 56 gr was the double charge, so he was working with 28.  I tend to think he either doubled it or used the wrong powder.  I wonder if it was the first round fired.
I don't know what to think about the theory of detonation.  I've certainly loaded down, but I try to use at least 60% or so of recommended.  Can't imagine how it could cause a problem, but it's probably wise to use propellants as they are intended. 

Offline Squib

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Re: I am now a bit Gunshy
« Reply #56 on: July 15, 2011, 06:31:31 PM »
as I understand it the bullet has to "stick" by semi-lodging in the throat of the barrel (beginning of bore/rifling) but too slow to catch the "wave" of propulsion due to gas expansion, some of the pressure "blows by" and it's enough that the bullet WILL NOT get enough to further it down the bore completely.  once it's past this point of no return, if it has enough energy behind it to keep the pressure building past the strength of the steel and weapon design BANG!!! 

going by my way of thinking, it's easier to do with bottleneck cartridges because as the mouth expands and lets the bullet jump the freebore into the rifling there is a "compressed" column of propulsion behind the bullet pushing the center of the base.  if the gas can "blow by" the projectile then the pressure is pushing lateral/outward instead of down the barrel, it's creating pressure on both ends of the round (how that's measured I don't know, ask a physicist to detail those effects), and the extra surface area of the shoulder allows that "shape-charge funnel" to direct the remaining energy from the still burning gas onto the back of the projectile to pressure spike a second and FINAL time upon lodging inside the barrel.  this is exacerbated by low loading density, the powder can burn low in the case pushing low on the bullet, instead of centered as it is supposed to.  low density means inconsistent "push" follow-through to direct the bullet perfectly forward and not slightly angled, not enough power is not enough to overcome bore friction, and the second spike is the unburnt and still burning powder pushing not only on the back of the bullet but ALSO the inside of the barrel but not in a column straight out, but every direction because it's going for the path of least resistance.  that path is everywhere because the chamber is bulging, the steel is NOT strong enough to contain the pressure but a fraction of a moment (long enough if the pressure is given an easy way out the bore, as it is with a properly loaded cartridge). 

also, the more powder you pack in, the more potential energy you get- especially with a ball powder that isn't compressed tight enough to get a good-consistant-constant burn.  PROGRESSIVE BURN IT THE KEY!  with a really slow powder, the initial pressurization due to the primer going off can cause the bullet to walk out of the crimp and into the rifling, which lowers the pressure while the powder burns slower than anticipated.  it WILL built that pressure up WAY higher than you meant though, but it won't build to the intended peak and then continue to burn (progressive burn) to keep the pressure somewhat constant while the bullet travels down the bore- it will build the pressure slow and then when the gas pressure has no where to go it stops going up bit by bit and BANG!!!  Detonation!!!  PS- this is a known issue for H110 in .357 magnun, and it needs no bottleneck because a revolver cylinder gap and forcing cone provide that "shape charge funnel" for it to happen.  I'll tell you from personal experience that going from top to bottom, 1.2grs powder charge deviation of h110 in starline brass, winchester spm primers, berry's plated double struck 125gr hp and/or hornady xtp 125gr hp I had noticed the recoil being strong but acceptable to fierce and with companion muzzleblast like a shotgun in the movies (huge orange flash out the barrel visible in strong sunlight, lots of muzzle travel up and down despite the compensator).  if you use slow burning ball powders watch yourself in general!  extruded and flakes "bulk up" to make sure there is air that can be a temporary filler to "cushion" the pressure increase (it burns up with the powder).  can anyone put that into laymans' terms? 

Offline us920669

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Re: I am now a bit Gunshy
« Reply #57 on: July 16, 2011, 04:39:59 AM »
That made great sense, especially the second paragraph.  I think I'm finally a believer.  The bullet gets stuck all cockeyed and pressure builds up in front of it, totally sealing the chamber.  All kinds of variables could enter in, such as case and chamber dimensions, lead and freebore, bullet softness, etc. I have had no experience with AA powders and don't know if that's what happened to the original poster or not.  I generally use stick powders in rifles and try to mostly fill the case.


In another thread I allowed as how I once fixed up some 44 Mag with four tenths gr Bullseye.  As I recall it was almost faster to count the kernels than weight them.  I used a huge backstop and made d***ed sure the bullet hit something.  Someone read me the riot act about detonation but I just rolled my eyes.  I was curious if I could see the bullet.  "I" couldn't, but an observer could, and they looked very similar, a fast silver streak.  They even grouped well, although nowhere near the bull.


I think people scoff at detonation first because it's so rare, but also because it seems impossible for less to be more - like asking Einstein to turn a glow-in-the-dark light switch into an A bomb.  I still think a ridiculously light load would be safe no matter what, but 20 or 30 grs of a progressive propellant is good for a considerable amount of energy.   

Offline Junior1942

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Re: I am now a bit Gunshy
« Reply #58 on: July 16, 2011, 06:01:07 AM »
Over 40+ years of reloading I've known several guys who bought a rifle in a new caliber and started reloading for it using the maximum velocity shown in a loading manual.  As a previous poster noted, those rifles and their hidden stress faults eventually belong to someone else.  Possibly someone they loved very much.

Offline Shu

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Re: I am now a bit Gunshy
« Reply #59 on: July 16, 2011, 07:14:21 AM »
I hope for a speedy recovery.
After reading the OP's and Dinny's first post filled with quotations I would bet paychecks on what happened. From December 2010 to May 2011, there were several incidents leading up to a catastrophic event. 56 grains of AA5744 in a 270 is a lot of pressure, as noted with Tim's quick load data 160k PSI would open any firearm up. Most thinngs that go boom have a 1.5 safety factor built into them. When you are running max loads and want just a little more speed, stop and think a minute at the top end of the pressure even a couple more grains can raise the pressure to failure. It is a logrithmic scale, not linear.
If you don't feel comfortable reloading, then don't. A shooter has got to know thier limitations.