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Offline Starr 2011

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Who made this cannon?
« on: July 13, 2011, 06:28:33 AM »
 Who made this cannon?
 
It is at Oak View Cemetery, Evansville, Indiana, and like no gun I’ve seen before. It looks like Civil War period, a 12 pounder or thereabouts; gun and its carriage are in fine condition. Is it a period piece or a modern repro?
 
The trunnion band looks like a strap. If it isn’t a strap how did the maker get the trunnion band over the mouldings at breech and muzzle?
 
If anyone has been through Evansville and noted any markings or anyone who knows the maker’s name please post it...
 
Many thanks
 
Starr

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Who made this cannon?
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2011, 07:34:35 AM »
Are there any marking anywhere on the tube?
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Who made this cannon?
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2011, 07:48:38 AM »
     Our copy of the National List of Surviving CW Artillery has 4 pieces of CW ordnance at Oakview Cemetery in Evansville.  They are two 8-Inch 1861 Siege Howitzers and Two 8-Inch 1861 Siege Mortars.  The only other listed CW piece in Evansville is a 3" Ordnance Rifle at the Museum of Arts and Science.  While our expertise lies with the seacoast guns, we opine that this could be a lesser known field gun or a temporary, modern, made-up gun put in place until a proper CW replica can be afforded.  We need someone who lives nearby to hike over there and take a few more pics, especially of ANY markings.

T&M
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Starr 2011

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Re: Who made this cannon?
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2011, 07:51:57 AM »
Kabar2
The photo was sent to me to see if I could identify it. It isn't English and I don't think it is European. So I put the picture up to see if the US experts had come across it in their travels. I was hoping that someone might have noted any markings.
Starr

Offline keith44

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Re: Who made this cannon?
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2011, 08:34:31 AM »
Hey guys, that's my neck of the woods, I'm probably 30 miles from Evansville.  Let me see if I can find the cemetary and get some pics.  It may have been a temporary display for the 4th or Memorial day.  Things come out of the wood work around those times, then disappear for a year or so...
keep em talkin' while I reload
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Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Who made this cannon?
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2011, 09:30:09 AM »
     Excellent Keith!  Say, when you go over there to photo and measure a few locations on this cannon, you will find there are two which look pretty much the same.  Take a look at the thread below on "How to Photograph, Measure and Make a Cannon Field Drawing".  These are the methods we use for all field research and can actually save you time while gathering meaningful photos and a few important measurements.  Good luck.

                                http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,155308.msg1098670056/topicseen.html#msg1098670056


We wonder what they are too.

Tracy and Mike
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Who made this cannon?
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2011, 03:22:42 PM »
Tube looks fake to me; have never seen an authentic one that looks like it.  It appears to be on a repro regulation 6-pounder carriage.

Offline keith44

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Re: Who made this cannon?
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2011, 04:39:11 PM »
could the name be Oak Hill Cemetary?  No one recognizes the name Oak View.
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Offline Starr 2011

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Re: Who made this cannon?
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2011, 01:06:57 AM »
Keith44:
Very many thanks for taking the trouble to visit Evansville. I think you are right about Oak Hill Cemetery, not Oak View. If you get there, there's another odd field gun in the same grounds. It is certainly not like the 3 inch Ordnance Rifle that Tracy and Mike have mentioned, but if you are there see if you can find it... Picture attached.

Tracy & Mike:
Talking of pictures: I went through Tracy and Mike's excellent guide to measuring survivors. Among the pictures are a couple that interest me (as the Blakely guy). I think that they were taken in New Canaan, CT, of a Blakely gun that has almost slipped out of history. Called a 4.5 inch Blakely, she only gets a sparse one line at the bottom of page 188 in Olmstead & Cos "The Big Guns". I would appreciate it if T&M shared their knowledge about this rare piece.

Thanks to all
Starr

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Who made this cannon?
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2011, 07:31:01 AM »
     Starr,   You are correct, New Canaan, CT it is.  After visiting my uncle in Newington near Hartford, Mike and I swung down to Fort Trumbull just south of New London and the Naval Submarine Base on the Thames River.  It was closed. so we snapped some shots of those beautiful Rodman Gun carriages in the Water Battery and headed for New York.  Lucky for us we stopped to look at the 4.5" Blakely Siege and Naval Rifle in New Canaan, CT.  This is about 25 miles NW of Norwalk on the CT shore.

     It's an interesting siege rifle with features lending itself to naval use as well.  The cascabel breeching loop is provided for a naval mounted, recoil limiting hawser.  The bulbous breech and the reinforce, presumably steel separates this gun from it's cousins at Fort Pulaski, near Savannah, Georgia.  There are two 4.5" Siege and Naval Rifles there, just where they were manned by Confederate artillerymen in 1862 during the investment of Ft. Pulaski by Federal artillery batteries miles away on Tybee Island.  You can easily see from the photos below that the two siege rifles at Pulaski are quite different in configuration from the one in New Canaan, CT.

     The only markings we found on the Connecticut rifle were the words "Blakley's Patent" on the top of the reinforce just in front of the breech.  No other markings were visible.  We have not yet learned where it came from before being mounted by a the Samuel P. Ferri Post, G.A.R. #61.  Perhaps if someone has the time to research that post's activities around the turn of the last century, further information will be revealed about the provenance of this Blakely siege rifle.

A dimensioned field drawing of the CT gun can be found in the link within Reply #5 above.

Tracy and Mike


Mike is measuring the muzzle to back of breech reinforce dimension.  This is called the length of tube dim.  If you add the cascabel length dim. you get the O.A.L.  Note reinforce, breech and cascabel configuration of this Blakely gun in New Canaan, Connecticut.  It is very different than the two 4.5" Blakely siege and naval guns at Fort Pulaski.





This view shows the unique breech and cascabel of the Connecticut rifle.  The only markings we found were the words,
"Blakely's Patent".  These were located on the reinforce just ahead of the breech.




This is a scan of our old chemical photo of one of two Fort Pulaski, GA Blakely guns.  You can clearly see that the reinforce and breech and cascabel of this gun is notably different than the New Canaan Blakely.  Same size bore and similar lengths, but very different config. on the aft. end.  Can this be the same model with these notable differences?  Confederate artillerymen fired these guns from barbette positions at the Federal breeching batteries on Tybee Island one to 2.5 miles away during the 30 hour bombardment of 1862.  Confederates were forced to capitulate when the main magazine was almost breeched.



Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline keith44

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Re: Who made this cannon?
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2011, 11:32:32 AM »
Heading to E'ville now.  I will post pics of what I can find (and have access to) later tonight.
 
 
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Offline Starr 2011

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Re: Who made this cannon?
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2011, 01:19:06 PM »
Very many thanks, Keith. Looking forward to your pix...
Thanks too, to Tracy and Mike for all their interesting input.
Starr

Offline keith44

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Re: Who made this cannon?
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2011, 06:32:16 PM »
I am sorry to report that there were absolutely no markings on this cannon, nor its sister.  I took some pics anyway, but not many measurements on these two.  In the same "field of valor" I was happy to find two other cannon barrels (circa 1865) and two 8" Mortars (circa 1864).  I did my best to measure those 4 and as I sort out the 124 pictures I took I will post them as well as the best descriptions I can manage.  There are also pics of cannon balls that are either period, or well made copies.  I did not think to measure them.  Soo the two I quested for are below.  As you can see the one in question is a smoothbore, aprox. 4" bore.  the vent area has been ground down below the surface of the barrel.  and as I said absolutely no markings.  Lawn ornament is my guess, never intended to be fired, appears to be rough cast.  It does have provisions for a rear sight.
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Offline keith44

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Re: Who made this cannon?
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2011, 06:49:49 PM »
The sister to the one above is rifled, about 2.7" bore, and a breech loader.  Also absolutely no markings, so not a period barrel.  This one does have some interesting features, as a breech loader.  It too may be just a "lawn ornament"  as there is a hole drilled into the breech plate. Here are some pics of this one...
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Offline keith44

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Re: Who made this cannon?
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2011, 07:02:07 PM »
More pics, randomly placed...
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Offline keith44

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Re: Who made this cannon?
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2011, 07:48:07 PM »
Very many thanks, Keith. Looking forward to your pix...
Thanks too, to Tracy and Mike for all their interesting input.
Starr

Actually, Starr, I enjoyed it very much.  I had fun trying to find them and then the thrill of rounding the corner and there they stand!!  May not be period but I was sure hoping that at least one of the two were an undiscovered war veteran.  The Mortars and the other two tubes were marked with the foundry and year of casting.  So thank you for starting this and giving me my first cannon hunt.
 
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Offline Starr 2011

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Re: Who made this cannon?
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2011, 03:53:27 AM »
Great Pictures, Keith. Many thanks again. Pity about the lack of marks...
I have had a bit more info about the two field guns over the weekend. They are both apparently "local heroes", made in Evansville in 1861. I am also told that the muzzle and breech mouldings on the smooth bore were separate pieces, which is how the odd trunnion ring was fitted along the tube. Your "down the throat" picture confirms this view. The tube appears otherwise to be a straight cylinder.
The breechloader, I guess from your pictures, had a breech-plate and plug that "screwed-in". The fine polygroove rifling looks too well-made for a lawn ornament - though I wouldn't mind it on my lawn.
Both the 4 inch smoothbore and 2.7 inch rifle are very odd calibres. A nightmare to provide ammunition for in 1861.
It looks like you had a really good day. The weather seems excellent, and the Cemetery a beautiful, quiet place, with quite a few interesting guns! A slight surprise to see the impressive monument to Confederate fallen in Indiana.
Best Wishes
Starr
 

Offline keith44

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Re: Who made this cannon?
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2011, 04:28:48 AM »
Actually those trunions and the band are cast in.  This shows every sign of being a "in the spirit of" gun rather than a surviving original.  At least to me that is how it looks.  Here's a close look at the leading edge of the band.
 
 
edit:
 
OOPS, last pic is of the other (rifled) cannon.
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Who made this cannon?
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2011, 08:40:46 AM »
I have had a bit more info about the two field guns over the weekend. They are both apparently "local heroes", made in Evansville in 1861. I am also told that the muzzle and breech mouldings on the smooth bore were separate pieces, which is how the odd trunnion ring was fitted along the tube.

Starr,
Did the source that provided you with the information that these two cannon were manufactured in Evansville, IN in 1861 give you any other history on them? Did they ever form a part of any Indiana artillery battery, and were they ever fired in anger during the Civil War?
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Starr 2011

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Re: Who made this cannon?
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2011, 10:29:21 AM »
Cannoneer
I hope you will understand that I have to respect the confidence of a local historian who is writing the story of the Indiana artillery and doesn't want his research pre-empted. The guy has identified the manufacturers of the two pieces and tracked their use in the civil war - I am afraid both of us will have to wait for him to publish to find out more.
Starr
 

Offline keith44

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Re: Who made this cannon?
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2011, 01:07:44 PM »
With no visible markings how can he be sure?  It would be great if he has pictures from the time period along with supporting documents, but people will build a fake anything just to make a buck.  Some of the fakes are good enough to fool historiens, and appraisers.
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Who made this cannon?
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2011, 10:11:02 AM »
I understand, Starr, and I'm sure you know that many of us will be interested to learn of any other information on these guns that your source eventually makes available.
 
 
Keith,
This man will have to provide some 'primary source' documents for his claims about these two cannon to be believed by the people he wishes to convince.
 
 
 
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Starr 2011

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Re: Who made this cannon?
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2011, 03:11:00 PM »
 Cannoneer
 
That’s it exactly with the two Evansville guns. The local historian, and I wish there were more like him, seems to have compiled their story in detail. I, too, am disappointed to have been given just a few basic facts: but they are really a couple of “local heroes”, which accounts for their lack of markings. Like most others on the forum I thought that the smooth-bore at least was of modern build. Looks can be deceptive.
 
It is amazing that even after 140 odd years something new and really interesting turns up.
 
And thanks again, Keith. With luck your visit will have provoked some urgency in getting the story published. 

Offline flagman1776

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Re: Who made this cannon?
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2011, 12:09:27 PM »
http://m.courierpress.com/photos/galleries/2011/sep/07/defending-evansville/23032/
 
(Governor) "Morton also established an arsenal in Indianapolis to supply the Indiana Militia, Home Guard, and the federal government.[27]  [27] Foulke p.155
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_in_the_American_Civil_War 
 

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Who made this cannon?
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2011, 08:26:09 PM »
Excellent detective work, flagman1776; the details given of the guns in the 1861 article, could very easily be considered a good description of the two unusual barrels located at the Evansville, IN cemetery. 

EVANSVILLE DAILY JOURNAL, APRIL 29, 1861.

CANNON. - The workmen at the E. & C. R. R. shop, on their own responsibility, are making a wrought-iron rifled cannon of about six pound calibre, for the public defense. Messrs. Kratz & Heiman's workmen are making an eight-pounder of wrought iron. The work on these pieces is very heavy, and the cannon when completed will be powerful and durable. They are made of bar iron crossed in such a manner that , when welded, it will be next to impossible to burst them. The last named piece will carry some three miles - perhaps both will.

RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Starr 2011

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Re: Who made this cannon?
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2011, 01:57:26 AM »
Well found, flagman 1776 - this agrees exactly with the pieces of info that the guy in Evansville gave me.
It's a good story about local patriots making guns!
Starr

Offline flagman1776

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Re: Who made this cannon?
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2011, 09:40:02 AM »
 :)