Author Topic: O2 + Al + Ignition = 3500+ degrees F  (Read 1920 times)

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Offline gunsonwheels

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Re: O2 + Al + Ignition = 3500+ degrees F
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2011, 05:59:00 PM »
DD:
 
Quote

Do you think these two reputable bodies would require foil wrap if a thermite like reaction was possible?  Your thoughts?


As the earth was once flat by every and all "reputable bodies" and the earth was the center of the universe by those same bodies...  I am more inclined to NOT form conclusions because of those bodies and continue to look for data.  I asked the question simply because of my background in pyrotechnics and HS chemistry...  Flash powder used for photographs and pyrotechnics is powdered aluminum, KClO3, Sulpher and Charcoal (from memory so, I think).  Most all thermite reagents are composed of aluminum and/or magnesium and an oxidizer.  The key element or factor is the "heat of oxidation" of these metals burning in the presence of oxygen (and a spark will set them off - DO NOT MIX in the mountain west on a dry (humidity) day as static canl set off the loose powder in the air).  Both "burn" or oxidize at temps above 3500 F and steel melts at around 2500 F.  There is no question aluminum foil bagging is safe as there is not sufficient mass of the Al to cause a "hazard"... so... my only concern would be minor erosion of my bore or my powder chamber (and Massachusetts and the Park Service could NOT care less about my errosion issues... if there is one) if the Al is oxidizing in lieu of melting.  As I have looked at a lot of "bagging residue" both Al and plastic, I do not believe their is oxidation... it just disturbs me at the amount of assuming there is without data... I believe that is how the earth got flat and the center of the universe in the first place.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: O2 + Al + Ignition = 3500+ degrees F
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2011, 06:24:47 PM »
I believe that is how the earth got flat and the center of the universe in the first place.

And it undoubtedly served some purpose for the promoters of those ideas.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
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Offline gunsonwheels

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Re: O2 + Al + Ignition = 3500+ degrees F
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2011, 08:15:32 PM »
Thanks George G... I am still laughing at that obsertvation... :)   :D   ;D 

Offline Double D

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Re: O2 + Al + Ignition = 3500+ degrees F
« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2011, 05:46:09 AM »
The earth is flat you dummies...ain't you never been to North Dakota or Kansas!!!!!  You could fall off and hurt your self out there!!!!

Offline jamesbeat

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Re: O2 + Al + Ignition = 3500+ degrees F
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2011, 08:46:26 AM »
It's been a while since I studied inorganic chemistry, but I can tell you that you are no more likely to trigger a thermite reaction with Al foil in a cannon barrel than you are to successfully use charcoal briquettes as a black powder substitute.

To make thermite, you need very finely powdered aluminum and rust, giving a large enough surface area to volume ratio to allow ignition. Even then, it needs sustained high temperatures to achieve ignition.
We used magnesium ribbon, which itself is a bear to ignite, and it takes a while (seconds) for the magnesium to ignite the thermite.
The oxidizer in thermite is the rust, which gives up its oxygen to the aluminum.
The puddle of iron left over at the end of the reaction is the rust that has been liberated from it's oxygen.

If the barrel of the cannon was rusty enough for that, you'd have a lot more to worry about than a potential thermite reaction :D

Without the rust, the aluminum has no oxygen in which to burn, which would be analogous to attempting to make black powder without the potassium nitrate.

If you've ever attempted to make black powder, you'll know that even with the right chemicals, it's still pretty difficult to make a powder that will work effectively.
You can't just mix saltpeter, charcoal, and sulfur together and expect to make black powder, and in much the same way, you can't expect to add aluminum, a trace of rust and heat and expect to get thermite.
He reached out and stroked shiny barrel. "Manuel, once there was a man who held a political make-work job like so many here in this Directorate, shining brass cannon around a courthouse."

   "Why would courthouse have cannon?"

   "Never mind. He did this for years. It fed him and let him save a bit, but he was not getting ahead in the world. So one day he quit his job, drew out his savings, bought a brass cannon--and went into business for himself."

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert A. Heinlein

Offline Microboomer

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Re: O2 + Al + Ignition = 3500+ degrees F
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2011, 10:28:42 AM »
Yeah - what Jamesbeat said!
I've been a chemist for 20+ years, and I've prepared thermite, black powder, and flash powder.  Now what I have NOT done is prepare aluminum foil cartridges for cannons, so I'm reluctant to claim that it's impossible for the foil to generate high temperatures.  However, it seems very unlikely that it would, and, based on the experimental evidence of all the people who've done it before, I'll do it myself when I finally get around to making a big enough cannon for cartridges to make sense.

Of the 3 mixtures I mentioned above, black powder is by far the most difficult to make well.  Flash powder is the easiest - you just need fine aluminum powder and a very strong oxidizer mixed together.  Of course, it's also the most dangerous to prepare, because of the strong oxidizing agent - if you try to grind them together it will blow up in your face.  Thermite is pretty safe and easy to prepare, because most metal oxides are not very strong oxidizers.  Still, you have to intimately mix the metal oxide with fine aluminum powder to get it to work. (I'm saying metal oxide instead of rust because the reaction works with other metals as well - somewhere I have a blob of chromium that I made this way years ago)  Like James said, you would need rust to make this work.  However, even if the barrel is rusty, the rust is not mixed well with the aluminum, and a thermite-type reaction would be unlikely.

Of course, the way to answer this question would be to prepare a steel barrel, rust it on the inside, and then ignite a foil wrapped cartridge in it and see what happens.
I think I'll leave this as an exercise for the reader...
andy

Offline gunsonwheels

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Re: O2 + Al + Ignition = 3500+ degrees F
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2011, 11:51:04 AM »
Microboomer:
 
Quote

Flash powder is the easiest - you just need fine aluminum powder and a very strong oxidizer mixed together.
gee... don't see any mention of iron   ...and when the flash powder is ignited... the temperature of the fireball is...??
 
I tried to mill flash powder quite a few years back... lead balls... the sister's rock tumbler... a hole dug out of the ground... and a 100' extension cord.  SWOOOSH!!!  What was left of the apparatus was a puddle of melted copper, steel and lead.  Forget the word "thermite" and try to limit the vision to simply having the  Al burn in the presence of an oxydizer.. (mine was KClO3) it will either melt or oxidize and if it oxidizes it will do so by releasing the temps referenced and if it does not relase those temps...  well I guess I need to go back and take the Chem classes over again... and maybe this time from someone other than that expatriate from Monsanto Chemical Corp. who gave me this false understanding...
 
For many years I used to walk by the large profiler mills machining magnesium parts... all kinds of fire hazard warning signs around them...??

Offline jamesbeat

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Re: O2 + Al + Ignition = 3500+ degrees F
« Reply #37 on: September 14, 2011, 05:00:04 AM »
As Microboomer said, you need an intimate mixture, and that requires the aluminum to be finely powdered.
This accomplishes two things: firstly, it ensures that the metal and the oxidizer have enough physical proximity to each other for the reaction to initiate, and secondly, that there is enough surface area for the heat to initiate combustion.
To visualize this second point, imagine trying to set fire to wood with a cigarette lighter.
If the wood is sawdust, then it will be easy to light.
If the wood is a log, it will be practically impossible to light.
We light logs by using tinder (very large surface area/volume ratio) to light kindling (large surface area/volume ratio) which is then used to light the wood (low surface area/volume ratio)

Of course, if you want to light a log with a lighter, it is possible, but given the same size flame, it will take much longer.


Imagine you had tried to make your flash powder without using your sister's rock tumbler. It wouldn't have worked, because the particle size of the reagents wouldn't have been small enough.

The reason for the fire warning signs around the magnesium machining equipment was that, when the magnesium is machined, 'fines' (small particles) are produced, giving the high surface area/volume ratio required for combustion.
It's the same as my wood analogy above, the magnesium billets are the 'log', and the fines are the sawdust.
I bet there were no fire warning signs in the area where the magnesium billets were stored before use.
Similarly, aluminum fines can be very dangerous, but you don't see such warning signs on a roll of aluminum foil.

A good example of this effect is a swedish firesteel.
These are not made of steel, but a substance called ferrocerium, which is pyrophoric, ie. it ignites spontaneously in air.
This reaction does not take place until the firesteel is scraped, shaving off fine slivers. These slivers have a large enough surface area/volume ratio for the spontaneous ignition to take place, and they burn, producing the sparks.
He reached out and stroked shiny barrel. "Manuel, once there was a man who held a political make-work job like so many here in this Directorate, shining brass cannon around a courthouse."

   "Why would courthouse have cannon?"

   "Never mind. He did this for years. It fed him and let him save a bit, but he was not getting ahead in the world. So one day he quit his job, drew out his savings, bought a brass cannon--and went into business for himself."

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert A. Heinlein

Offline Double D

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Re: O2 + Al + Ignition = 3500+ degrees F
« Reply #38 on: September 14, 2011, 10:50:02 AM »
Don't know if this off the topic but in my mortar i had used Titanium powder & BP for a nice flash for night firing with out any ball loads how hot does titanium get when Ignited ? Looks like a flash bulb the whole yard lights up nicely. Austin

Austin,

That is drifting into pyrotechnic and we steer clear of that here.

Offline Victor3

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Re: O2 + Al + Ignition = 3500+ degrees F
« Reply #39 on: September 15, 2011, 02:12:06 AM »
... my only concern would be minor erosion of my bore or my powder chamber
 
... it just disturbs me at the amount of assuming there is without data...

 GOW,
 
 I believe that in the case of a BP arms of any type, corrosion (as opposed to erosion) has shown itself to be more of a bore killer. Heck, we might hope that some kind of reaction is burning the rust out for us.  :)
 
 As far as assuming without data goes, I couldn't agree more. However, in this case I think there is sufficient data to determine that any bore erosion via a thermite-like reaction would be secondary to damage via corrosion, or even abrasion from a projectile contacting the bore (especially in a rusty bore, as iron oxide is harder than steel).
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline jamesbeat

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Re: O2 + Al + Ignition = 3500+ degrees F
« Reply #40 on: September 15, 2011, 04:25:55 AM »
Yes, I'd say that if you have concerns about barrel longevity, they would be best channeled into making sure the bore is scrupulously clean and religiously oiled when not in use.
He reached out and stroked shiny barrel. "Manuel, once there was a man who held a political make-work job like so many here in this Directorate, shining brass cannon around a courthouse."

   "Why would courthouse have cannon?"

   "Never mind. He did this for years. It fed him and let him save a bit, but he was not getting ahead in the world. So one day he quit his job, drew out his savings, bought a brass cannon--and went into business for himself."

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert A. Heinlein

Offline Rickk

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Re: O2 + Al + Ignition = 3500+ degrees F
« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2011, 04:37:17 AM »
The Massachusetts cannon firecodes were developed based on recommendations of an NSSA re-enactor from Northampton, Massachusetts.

I got that straight from the re-enactor himself, who was quite proud that he had created a set of regulations that in general made it very difficult for anyone but him to legally fire a cannon in the state.

 The fire marshal took what the re-enactor said as gospel and wrote it all down as a state regulation.

Offline Double D

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Re: O2 + Al + Ignition = 3500+ degrees F
« Reply #42 on: September 17, 2011, 08:13:46 AM »
Rick,

I heard that story before....

Offline Artilleryman

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Re: O2 + Al + Ignition = 3500+ degrees F
« Reply #43 on: September 17, 2011, 08:54:30 AM »
Pete apparently came up with the idea of using a plastic baggie inside the aluminum foil, and Mass. requires that. 
Norm Gibson, 1st SC Vol., ACWSA

Offline GGaskill

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Re: O2 + Al + Ignition = 3500+ degrees F
« Reply #44 on: September 17, 2011, 10:51:29 AM »
If you are feeling frisky, you might investigate the proper procedures for establishing such rules (probably need to be published and have a public comment period, at least) and try to determine if they were followed by the Fire Marshall.  If the procedures were not followed, you would have a case for overturning the rules and having them re-established with more input than one bozo.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill