Author Topic: Powder Choices (Read 1809 times)

greenrivers · « **on:** July 15, 2011, 10:56:41 PM »

I started shooting front loaders back in the sixties and about the time Pyrodex hit the market I switched to it thinking it a great product. More rounds fired and a lot less clean up. As the rifles and Colt repro's I was using were for plinking, I never looked into real accuracy. I am now just getting back to a bit more serious shooting and am wondering what powders have been tested by members to produce the best accuracy and are the substitutes as good as the originals? I am shooting both .36 and .54 in a T/C Hawken as well as a couple of the Colt clone revolvers.

Ladobe · « **Reply #1 on:** July 15, 2011, 11:35:35 PM »

It's probably more a personal choice thing as long as you find a combination a particular muzzie shoots well.

I started shooting black in 1970/71, and have always only shot real powder in mine. Works fine for me either hunting or at primitive matches. So I never had any desire to use the substitutes, in part because black gets in done very well and in part because they are not traditional to me. Goex was my standard, but I have also used Swiss when I could get it. For the 36's and 54, 3F was the choice for my 36 Squirrel and 36 Hawken, 2F for hunting with the Renegade, but 3F for target shooting with it. I only shot 32, 36, 45, 50 & 54 calibers and 12GA, so I figured when the 2F ran out I'd only buy 3F after that.

FWIW - YMMV

IronBrigade · « **Reply #2 on:** July 16, 2011, 04:29:41 AM »

I use both BP and pyrodex rs. I prefer Goex 2f but sometimes it's hard to get. As far as accuracy there's not much difference between the two for my guns. where I do notice the difference is ignition time, BP is more crisp. I use only BP for hunting cause I never have any problems with delay or misfires.

Ranch13 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 16, 2011, 08:51:32 AM »

None of the so called substitutes are worth bothering with.
With Hogdons playing sillybugger games with Goex , since they bought the plant many of us have been looking for alternate powders. KIK is the powder to use, it's cheaper than goex, velocity runs right with Goex express and it burns super clean. Swiss has gone up in price. Schuetzen is a good powder.
www.powderinc.com can fix you right up with blackpowder.

greenrivers · « **Reply #4 on:** July 16, 2011, 10:37:59 AM »

Thanks for the information guys, sounds like I am on the right track again after more than forty years.
I attended a shoot this morning put on by the York County Powder Burners and had a chance to look around and see what others are using. A local outlet carries Goex, Shuetzen and Swiss. I was lead toward the Shuetzen and am pleased with the results so far. First black powder in a lot of years and I LIKE it!
I have a bit more than two pounds of Pyrodex left and will use it in my Colt clones. One of which just came to live with me two days ago. It is a .36 caliber 51 Navy by Pietta, couldn't resist. Very nice color case on it. But then I know I am week.
I just left the casting pot, and now have a few .54 R/B and will start testing accuracy with them verses maxi. Looks about like another two weeks before my new .36 barrel for the Hawken will get here.

Higene · « **Reply #5 on:** July 16, 2011, 01:23:39 PM »

I shoot substitutes in my flinters and large volume cap locks. I shoot a duplex load starting with 16-18 grains of goex and then the remainder of substitute. Sounds strange but it works for me.

Higene

flintlock · « **Reply #6 on:** July 16, 2011, 02:24:32 PM »

I used Goex FFF, even in my Knight...

keith44 · « **Reply #7 on:** July 16, 2011, 09:51:43 PM »

The substitutes are just that substitutes, like grade school teachers, they fill a need, but cannot even come close to the real thing. Real black powder (regardless of manufacturer) delivers lower pressure and at least equal accuracy in both of my .54's and actually is best performer (accuracy and velocity) in my .32 cal Pedersoli KY longrifle. My Pedersoli .54 likes 90 grains of 2F while my Traditions Hawken likes 85 grains of 3F best. Pyrodex used in combination with "Bore Butter" on patched roundballs nearly ruined the barrel of my Hawken. Once the build up was scrubbed out and I went back to 3F with "spit patches" I was able to hold 1 1/2 inch groups at 80 yards with the factory sights. Despite all the hype remember that there is over 200 years of documented history along with rifles that have survived over 150 years being fired with real black powder, and cleaned with water.

greenrivers · « **Reply #8 on:** July 17, 2011, 02:23:50 AM »

It seems quite clear after talking with folks at the shoot yesterday and from your responces that your analogy Keith44 is accurate. Black powder seems to win hands down. After using it yesterday I did notice a more crisp and seemingly quicker ignition. As I mentioned, I had been using Bore Butter since the rifle was new with the Pyrodex and decided to find out why that rough and choked area midway of my barrel was there. After a good hot water and soap cleaning it was taken to my shop for a good scrubbing where a brush revealed that there was a buildup in the bore. It took me more than two hours and a very large pile of patches to get it cleaned up. The bore now feels even and smooth, and nothing but black powder is going in my rifles again. I believe that the Bore Butter is a good product and for now I will stay with it while experimenting with other products. Time to start punching paper and find that "sweet" spot.
Thanks guys!

AtlLaw · « **Reply #9 on:** July 17, 2011, 06:00:14 AM »

Quote from: greenrivers on July 17, 2011, 02:23:50 AM

nothing but black powder is going in my rifles again.

I got on the "substitute" bandwagon when they first came out also. Maybe it was a "newer must be better" thing. $:-\$ But I found myself never satisfied and always trying the next substitute out. I finally asked myself why I was doing all this and went back to Black. I can't imagine why I spent time looking for something that did as well as what I was using in the first place!

Quote

I believe that the Bore Butter is a good product ...

I never had any problem with it for lubing patches. But it was a little "thin" for my taste. Now I've gone to Gatofeo's Lube (check out the cap and ball revolver forum) for all my BP shooting. The wads have worked so well in my revolvers I'm gonna try them (under the patched ball of course) in my rifles.

greenrivers · « **Reply #10 on:** July 18, 2011, 04:21:32 AM »

Atlaw, is suspect that at the time we both believed in the onward/upward march of technology. Wish I had a lot more of it to put in my garden! Newer is not always better. Having regained he "itch" to put my front loaders back in service, meant catching up for a lot of lost years. I suspect the numbers of them may increase. Just picked up a 51 Navy, and saw a sweet trade rifle Saturday. Hmmmm.
Are you intent on over powder lubed felt to help reduce fouling in the rifles or do you have other reasons?

AtlLaw · « **Reply #11 on:** July 18, 2011, 06:31:02 AM »

Quote from: greenrivers on July 18, 2011, 04:21:32 AM

Are you intent on over powder lubed felt to help reduce fouling in the rifles or do you have other reasons?

Mostly to keep fouling down but, and it may be my imagination here, I think it makes cleanup easier also. $:-\$

Mutton tallow and beeswax; what could be better then smelling roast lamb with honey glaze every time you pull the trigger!?

keith44 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 18, 2011, 07:43:07 AM »

Quote from: greenrivers on July 18, 2011, 04:21:32 AM

Are you intent on over powder lubed felt to help reduce fouling in the rifles or do you have other reasons?

If I may chime in here, I use either felt or cotton, with a grease lube in two of my frontloaders. Oddly they are both Pedersoli brand. In my .32 flintlock (with a 42" barrel) I use felt .31 cal pistol wads between the powder and a patched roundball. It tightens the group size by 1/2 an inch at 50 yards. How and why? can't say for sure but it may help with the fouling, but when shooting 25 grains of 3F there ain't much to start with. It may also be a more consistent column with more consistent compaction of the powder charge.

In my .54x.54 Kodiak, I use a cotton ball with lots of grease worked in to it. This rifle has a rather fast 1:32 twist, with 28 inch barrels. I use these to carry extra lube out to the muzzle to keep the fouling soft. Otherwise the fouling gets really hard about the last 4 inches of the barrel (at the muzzle end). So it gets really hard to load the 3rd shot and I cannot load a fourth without the "grease ball" in place. So it also makes cleanup alot easier in this one.

greenrivers · « **Reply #13 on:** July 18, 2011, 10:58:33 AM »

I believe that both issues are correct. Fouling pushed out and consistant packing, but could be wrong. I have been in the shop making felt cutters and casting .530 R/B. Came close to launching that Lee bottom pour though. It is now empty, cooling and will try cleaning it before I remove the valve assembly and start ladling again.
Atlaw, I am not sure about the smell of that baked lamb when hunting, but after skipping lunch, it is sure making the mouth water. Love the stuff.
Kieth44, what is the bike in the picture?

bagdadjoe · « **Reply #14 on:** July 18, 2011, 04:12:52 PM »

I've been researching some myself to make an order to feed the new Gibbs. I'm seeing some good reactions from some apparently knowledgeable long range shooters using KIK powder, which is what I'm going to order. All of the above are available from Powder Inc. and at good prices. Prices listed include hazmat and shipping. No, I don't know anybody there or have any connection, but check 'em out.

keith44 · « **Reply #15 on:** July 18, 2011, 09:05:50 PM »

Quote from: greenrivers on July 18, 2011, 10:58:33 AM

Kieth44, what is the bike in the picture?

A slightly modified Kawasaki Vulcan 900 LT. (2009, two tone color option)

greenrivers · « **Reply #16 on:** July 19, 2011, 02:23:15 AM »

Nice bike, my brother has one about the same year. Maybe a little older.

keith44 · « **Reply #17 on:** July 19, 2011, 06:40:30 AM »

Thanks, lots of fun riding, I use mine for my daily commute to work ( weather permitting). Since it's 80 miles round trip the gas savings alone offset the cost of the bike and maintenance.

greenrivers · « **Reply #18 on:** July 19, 2011, 07:48:20 AM »

Yes they do save money. Especially now. But there like guns to gather meat. If your buying to save money,go to the grocery store. The price per pound is a lot less, but not nearly as fun. Once owned over time the cost of the fun comes down. I live in the northeast so the number of days I can ride per year are quite limited. We still average between 4 and 5k per year.

keith44 · « **Reply #19 on:** July 19, 2011, 08:54:58 AM »

True, but there are years when the bike "comes out of the barn" in March and isn't put up til' December. I usually average 12 to 14K miles per year.

If your brother rides a Vulcan ask him if he's a member of VROC. If not have him check out vroc.org great bunch of guys there with a great wealth of knowledge for anything that may go wrong with the bikes. Also we have our own roadside emergency call list.

Higene · « **Reply #20 on:** July 19, 2011, 09:08:55 AM »

What type of powder does it use?

Higene

VNV MC

keith44 · « **Reply #21 on:** July 19, 2011, 09:41:28 PM »

the real stuff

greenrivers · « **Reply #22 on:** July 20, 2011, 01:27:03 AM »

Got side tracked. Back to topic, sorry.

keith44 · « **Reply #23 on:** July 20, 2011, 06:37:45 AM »

Life is not lived in straight lines and conversation, to remain interesting must flow in many directions. But yes back to the topic at hand with apologies to those who prefer single line well ordered discussions.

With the explosion at Goex (two or three months ago) has anyone noticed any shortages, or other brands being substituted in orders, or did this one not make the news, and not affect the supply chain.

nw_hunter · « **Reply #24 on:** July 21, 2011, 05:51:28 AM »

Quote from: Ranch13 on July 16, 2011, 08:51:32 AM

None of the so called substitutes are worth bothering with.
With Hogdons playing sillybugger games with Goex , since they bought the plant many of us have been looking for alternate powders. KIK is the powder to use, it's cheaper than goex, velocity runs right with Goex express and it burns super clean. Swiss has gone up in price. Schuetzen is a good powder.
www.powderinc.com can fix you right up with blackpowder.

Got to agree! I use KIK when I can get it.I'm currently out of it, and dang near out of Goex.
I only use 3f in all my hunting rifles and If I'm forced to use Pyro, I use the Pyrodex P.
It's still inferior to the real stuff, but will work in a pinch.Like others mentioned.....It needs more scrubbing to clean than black, and the slower ignition time can effect the accuracy.

Ranch13 · « **Reply #25 on:** July 21, 2011, 09:18:22 AM »

Jerry at Powder Inc has plenty of KIK, matter of fact they just got a new shipment of 3f. It's 15 a pound in 10 lb lots delivered, and 12.75 in full case lots delivered.
He has regular goex as well but the express and cartridge are all gone.

greenrivers · « **Reply #26 on:** July 22, 2011, 01:38:10 AM »

As mentioned, I have more than two pounds of Pyrodex left and even though it is 2F decided to use it in my revolvers. I shot the Navy a couple days ago and got way better accuracy than I expected from it and cleanup was not bad at all. I am really dreading having to shoot all that powder and hitting those little targets just so I can use it up and get some 3F black. But a man has to do..............

greenrivers · « **Reply #27 on:** July 22, 2011, 02:27:08 AM »

After trying a few home made wads soaked in a lube close to Gatofeo's, (no beeswas in this area) I am going to start using them all the time in both my rifles and handguns. As Kieth44 says, they are more consistant loads and provide a bit more lube as well. I am also going to use them instead of over the top grease in my handguns. For field use or at the range, a lot less trouble and mess. Also got a call today that my .36 RB barrel will be ready for pickup early next week. These are one inche drop in replacement barrels from Green Mountain that were a special order of two hundred. Two hundred and two were made in order to complete the order if any failed inspection and all passed making mine available direct. I was not told who ordered the barrels, but was told that no further barrels in this caliber would be made. Just thought those wanting one as I do would like to know that a call to GM would get the name.

flintlock · « **Reply #28 on:** July 22, 2011, 05:48:32 AM »

Got a Hobby Lobby nearby???

They have bees wax back in the candle making area...

AtlLaw · « **Reply #29 on:** July 22, 2011, 06:14:54 AM »

Shoot man!

Beeswax be the prime ingredient! It's great stuff and has a bunch of uses if ya think about it...

I got my last few pounds here.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=86774