Author Topic: the 357 sig round why not? (Read 2273 times)

butchen · « **on:** July 16, 2011, 07:27:15 AM »

I was looking down the topics and someone ask why more people don't use the 40 cal. Well my question is why not the .357sig. it's got a lot going for it on paper, but I never shot one (one of the few rounds I have never shot). It looks like the ammo is about the same price as the others, well not as cheep as you can get 9mm or 45acp "cheep ammo" for but the same as good ammo for all of the big 3 autos (9mm, 40cal, and 45acp). Not a big deal just would like to know what you think.

Graybeard · « **Reply #1 on:** July 16, 2011, 11:40:14 AM »

Never fired one either. I like it on paper a lot in fact. Ammo availability strikes me as the single biggest downfall for it but since you can order on line even that isn't all that big a deal.

Being bottlenecked it should be 100% reliable in feeding and the velocity of the 124 grain bullet is darn close to what manufacturer's are loading the .357 Magnum 125s to these days. Now whether it reaches that velocity in the real world I dunno.

hunterspistol · « **Reply #2 on:** July 16, 2011, 12:42:56 PM »

I've shot it. It replicates magnum capability in a semi-auto handgun. It's not shabby and fires hot. It's substanially more managable for recoil than a lot of big bore handguns. The one I fired hit the targets and dirt berm with a lot of gusto. If you like the idea, you might want to consider buying one and reloading for it before the fast-hustle marketing discontinues it. I have the same thing with 41 magnum. They may try to phase it out but, I'm buying it before they can accomplish that.

357 Sig is nice.

Dee · « **Reply #3 on:** July 16, 2011, 02:20:50 PM »

I suppose if one wants a little more velocity in their 9mm it would be the way to go, but that's all it is. A slightly souped 9. A lot of rounds look good on paper, but paper is usually just that. Paper. A necked down 40 casing is not going to make a 9mm into a 357 magnum. There' a lot more to it than that.
You will get a little more penetration, BUT! You WILL NOT, get the expansion, and energy deliverance of the TRUE 357 magnum. It's all about caliber SHAPE, and bullet DESIGN, not MATCHED SPEED, i.e. velocity. Equal velocity and bullet weight, do not equal "like performance".
If Sig had named the cartridge the 9mm Super, it would have still been sitting on the shelf. Instead it "PLAYED ON" the legendary 357 magnum's excellent reputation as a police fight stopper, and PAID GUN WRITERS exploited the readers in INVENTING THE 357Sig A GOOD REPUTATION. And that is what they did. They "invented" it along with PAPER THEORY logic.

butchen · « **Reply #4 on:** July 16, 2011, 02:41:43 PM »

talk to a cop friend here in town just today who has one and it runs just under his 357 mag on his chronograph more than his 9mm. and your right paper is just that paper. but he said he loves the way it knocks the steel targets down. but you know that somethings are over kill too. I don't know but I think I am going to get on over the big 3. found a kit to convert a 1911 over just may go that way. and may just stay with the golden oldie 45acp just don't know.

Dee · « **Reply #5 on:** July 16, 2011, 02:48:03 PM »

Well butchen, I only gave the facts of the two. I gave no advice. One must decide for ones self what one wants. I have also entered into discussions of "knock down power" concerning handguns, and even shotguns. Having been there, and done that, I pointed out that knock down power in either arm does not actually exist, but that "fall down" does. One must trade UP in weaponry, to say a "Ford Pickup" in order to achieve true knock down power. But then the holster carry, and concealment of said pickup, is rather awkward.
The person writing the check, and buying the ammo, should be the one to choose the weapon.

butchen · « **Reply #6 on:** July 16, 2011, 03:39:26 PM »

lol
You know its all over kill, someone on here said "there is no degrees of dead so how can there be degrees of killing power" same thing here. As a kid we used a 22short to kill 250lb+ hogs. The main thing I was asking about this is you just never hear about this cal and it would be cool just to have something different than the guy next to you. You know it's a lot like the 50GI it's a round made for a market of people that just want to be different.
It's no big deal and I think your right if it was called a 9mm super or mag it would have done a lot to the selling of the round. If you really look at things there is no need for most rounds it's just a different way to get to the same place. But as far as trying to hide a ford truck under my shirt I see your point. But if I could take a 1911 and a kit and shoot the round it may be fun. If we all would use our heads and think about what we are doing we wouldn't need but two or three guns.
Like in my granddads day they had to do it all with maybe 3 different guns, a rifle, a shotgun, and some kind of hand gun. And the rifle and hand gun were for people with money. For the most part we are just getting more toys to play with.

BTW: Thanks for all the facts I like to talk about guns and the discussion is what I start the thread for. And I don't mind if you give me advice Dee. It's all good.

Dee · « **Reply #7 on:** July 16, 2011, 05:36:31 PM »

Interesting point that I have discussed before. My Grandfather was a Cherokee (full blood) share cropper, and so was Dad on the same farm. We lived in a tin roofed two room house with no plumbing, and two light bulbs. Granddad lived in the neighboring 5 room house with his wife, and Dad's three little brothers that were not much older than me. Grandpa had a single shot 12 gauge, and a octagon lever action 22 rifle he found in a clay cave back in the 20s. That was all he had period in the way of guns, save he mothers old Iver Johnson Bicycle Works 38 S&W pistol.
We all learned to shoot with these guns. ALL OF US! The hammer spring had long since broken on the lever action and an inner tube loop was stretched from the forearm around the hammer, and although it looked like crap it worked.
We have forgotten how little we really need.

Fire Fox · « **Reply #8 on:** July 30, 2011, 07:37:15 AM »

Personally I tend to like the 38 super better. it seems to have less fuss and works about the same as the sig. Just my opinion. However its good that not everyone likes the same thing ( makes life interesting).

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #9 on:** July 30, 2011, 08:18:43 AM »

its a good defense round and i personaly wish someone would make a 1911 chambered in it.

Walt4595 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 30, 2011, 08:36:58 AM »

Purchased a 357Sig factory S&W barrel for my M&P 40. The 357Sig in an accurate round. And being able to do a quick barrel swap between 40 S&W and 357Sig on my M&P 40 is a bonus. Recoil of the 357Sig was not an issue for me.

Off the shelf ammo availablity of 357Sig is a disadvantage. But still a fun caliber to take to the range.

Walt

rockbilly · « **Reply #11 on:** July 30, 2011, 10:05:19 AM »

I have a lot of Texas Ranger and DPS Officer Friends; we have discussed the .357 Sig many times since the Texas DPS went to them several years ago. Even the Rangers who mostly carry a 1911 in .45 are sold on the 357 Sig as both a defensive and offensive round. (The .45/Ranger thing is a deep set tradition.)

Most of the troopers swear the .357 is far more effective than either the .357 S&W or the .45. Some say it is a very effective long range round and accurate out to 100 yards. It has proven effective against windshields, and will usually penetrate them where the .45 and 357 ricochets off.

I love the way my Sig model 229 shoots, and carry it quite often, down side, as Dee said, is size. It is no where near as comfortable to carry as the Kel-Tec or one of my other smaller revolvers or autos. But I wouldn’t hesitate to grab the Sig in a SHTF situation, the gun is reliable and the round will likely do the job.

butchen · « **Reply #12 on:** July 30, 2011, 12:14:55 PM »

Lloyd someone makes a kit for the 1911. I don't know who but that is where I started this thread from I shot a 1911 (the best feeling auto I think anyway) in the 357sig. I will try to find out who did my buddy's friend's gun. And get back to you. It was just a group of us out shooting and he let me shoot it, I don't even know his name. lol but I will try to find out more.

williamlayton · « **Reply #13 on:** July 31, 2011, 11:39:58 PM »

There are adhereants to the 357sig and deterants.
It is a somewhat complicated round to reload---the crimping being the big disadvantage.
The crimping has to be correct. It is a high pressure round and overpressures can be disastrous.
I don't reload for it and will not.
It is a funny thing this attempt to get a .357 round into a semiauto platform. The platform allows the larger store of ammo in a gun. One shot more seems to always be the holy grail.
The .38super, loaded properly, is as old as the .357 and will do the same job, but, in a semiauto. The 9x23 is the same round as the 357 but it is even hotter.
The 9x23 comes with some of the liabilities that are developed in the .357sig---pressures. They are handled better, IMO, by the case design and development--+--it is softer shooting.
That is getting off the .357 and beginning to stray a bit.
I can shoot the .40 or the .357sig but I don't care for the recoil patterns---over a long range session---as much as the .357 or the .38super/9x23.
This is, of course, personal preferance and will vary from individual to individual.
Blessings

Mikey · « **Reply #14 on:** August 01, 2011, 02:41:20 AM »

There is no reason not to enjoy a 357 Sig. There is one important fact about 9mms though that many do not understand. When it comes to 9mms and 9mm bullets, you do not need 1400'/sec for reliable performance; you can easily go as low as 1250'/sec for more than enough 'oomph' and lethality. A 9mm 115 gn bullet at anywhere from 1200 - 1250'/sec is a +P to +P+ level load and it is quite lethal. A 9mm 125 gn slug at only 1200 - 1250'/sec is more lethal (that is, more effective) than the +P load. Both the 9x23 Winchester and the 357 Sig boast of 1425'/sec velocites and the 38 Super can be loaded to that level, although they may kick out a bit less from a shorter barrel, but they don't need even that much.

357 sig cases are easy to make just by necking down 40 S&Ws. If you want, you can probably get barrels with a .357 diameter bore or you can get them with a 9mm bore but it doesn't matter. The 9mm 124/5 gn slug at 1200-1250'/sec is all that is necessary. You can probably load down a 357 Sig to that level just to have a easy shootin' gun and you wouldn't have to worry 'bout anything with that load.

You can find 1911s in 40 S&W and can purchase 357 Sig barrels to convert and then you can have a lot of fun. HTH.

HammerMan/LongbowMan · « **Reply #15 on:** August 02, 2011, 06:37:40 PM »

I would hate to reload for the 357 sig. I've grown used to not lubing any pistol cases.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #16 on:** August 02, 2011, 07:30:58 PM »

I havd shot this round a bunch of times and like the little round. But then I like 9mm and having one go faster with no more recoil is a plus.
It is another attempt ot get the 125 grain JPH proformance out of an auto gun. (38 Super, 38-45 9X25, 9X23 ... Ect. Not to mention the Coonan 1911 that shot 357 Mag) So far only 357 Sig is the only one that really has stayed and become main stream.
It does not match the 1400 FPS Semi Jacketed Hollow point that made 357 mag the king but it does match the current batch of defense rounds and having 10 or more in a small package. The necked round aids in feeding and reliability. Something police and personal protection people would want. It fits in anything that can hold a 9 luger and that is most of the popular wonder black guns like the Sig, Berretta, Browning, Glock, S&W, and H&K in all sizes from the huge H&K USP to the micro frames of the glock 26. ( I don't know what the 357 Sig model is but same size as the little 9mm). The 38 Super while ballisticly a twin needs the large frame of a 1911. The cool thing about 38 Super as a round is it can be custome chambered in a small 5 shot revolver as a companion peice. But then again the micro 9 frames cna be used the same way.
Everyone wants to have the best mouse trap. If police departments are changing guns due to wear, requiremnts or changing technology then it would be a great round ot go to, so would 9mm and 40 in the same frame. I think confidance in the equipment, and in the proformance of the projectile aids in the confidance and use of the gun when needed. If you told police officers that it was a laser and any hit will knock down the person (sounds like the hype about the 1911 and the 45 ACP?) they feel that they are the best armed and equiped.

deerandduck · « **Reply #17 on:** August 03, 2011, 04:02:15 AM »

I really can not add much to this very good discussion, but I was also thinking of getting a 357 sig barrel.
And since I had lots of 40 brass, I investigated the idea of resizing it to the 357 Sig. Bottom line, you should NOT do it, as the 40 is 0.020" shorter and the 357 sig, if I'm remembering correctly, spaces off the end of the brass.
For those thinking of resizing 40 to 357 Sig, please investigate for yourself.
Because of this, I am going to forego another caliber and punt the 357 sig for now.
best of luck,
deerandduck

Mike in Virginia · « **Reply #18 on:** August 04, 2011, 01:23:00 PM »

It was my issued weapon for many years. They gave it to me when I retired. It was wore out. Put it away. New, the Sig .357 would print under 1.5 inches at 25 yards. Shot it so much the last group I tested was about 4 inches. Having used one for so long, I can say I never liked it so very much. A Sig 229 is a big gun, too big in my opinion for what you get in ballistics. I tested a new .357 Sig against a Ruger SR9c with 127 grn. +P+ ammo and got exactly the same results in penetration and expansion. So, if one can have the same thing in a smaller package, why get the bigger gun? The Ruger weighs a lot less, yet has less recoil. I suppose it's because the Ruger is plastic. 'Tis my opinion, that if anyone wants a .357 Sig, don't get it. Get the 9mm.

BAGTIC · « **Reply #19 on:** August 17, 2011, 08:23:59 AM »

Before you stock up on a lot of ammo buy some GOOD hearing protectors.

butchen · « **Reply #20 on:** August 17, 2011, 09:08:10 AM »

Quote from: BAGTIC on August 17, 2011, 08:23:59 AM

Before you stock up on a lot of ammo buy some GOOD hearing protectors.

are they worse than the 40. what about a 357 mag they hurt my ears worse than anything but the 454 even hunting I put in one ear plug with it. the 44 and even the 500 mag don't hurt like those

pastorp · « **Reply #21 on:** August 20, 2011, 12:01:05 PM »

To say the 357sig is a souped up 9mm is, perhaps a oversimplication. It was designed not to be a 357mag duplicate but to duplicate a specific 357mag loading. The 125gr 357mag loading that was at one time quite popular with law enforcement.

It does that quite well.
With heavier bullets it of course falls short of matching the 357 mags performance. There is just nor enough room in the sigs case for the powder required to do so.

Regards,

williamlayton · « **Reply #22 on:** August 20, 2011, 03:41:13 PM »

The 357 sig was an answer to a question never asked.
The .40 was a results od the 10mm being to hot to handle for many.
It was called the short & weak.
The 357sig will not do anything the 9x23 will do better--and easier.
Blessings

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #23 on:** August 20, 2011, 05:05:32 PM »

Quote from: williamlayton on August 20, 2011, 03:41:13 PM

The 357 sig was an answer to a question never asked.
The .40 was a results od the 10mm being to hot to handle for many.
It was called the short & weak.
The 357sig will not do anything the 9x23 will do better--and easier.
Blessings

I can think of three things the 357 Sig does that the 9X23 does not do
1) fit in a 9mmLuger / 9X19 framed gun.
2) The bottle neck increases feeding reliability
3) I can find it in 2 out of 3 local gun shops.
Getting 357 Mag 125 grain one shot stop out of an auto loading handgun has been a question that has been asked multiple times. The 38 Super was the one that started the whole idea. The 40 S&W came out of the 10mm having to fit in a full sized frame that was too large for some ofhte FBI agents. Any frame that can hold a 9X19 can hold 40 and 357 Sig.
30 Luger and 7.65 Mauser were auto loading bottle neck cases that have been around since the start of the auto loading gun back to 1896. Until the 357 Mag 30 Mauser was the drag racing champion in handguns.

williamlayton · « **Reply #24 on:** August 21, 2011, 04:23:42 PM »

My STI framed .38 super was converted to 9x23--uses the same mags---what is a .38 but a 9mm.
The bottle neck also suffers set back issues and high pressures.
The 9x23 is a better round.
Blessings

rockbilly · « **Reply #25 on:** August 22, 2011, 11:18:23 AM »

The .357 Sig worked well for a DPS Trooper night before last in Sweetwater, TX in a gun fight with a carjacker. One shot, score, Trooper - one dead car theif;

armed car theif - zero.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #26 on:** August 22, 2011, 11:50:38 AM »

Back to OP , had a sig 239 and a glock in 357 sig. shot some small critters only and did not see much more than a 9mm would do. However hear quite a bit more. Small and fast is loud really loud. In a self defense situation to loud can be bad. As can alot of pressure say in a vehicle or small room.

zorba · « **Reply #27 on:** August 23, 2011, 03:26:19 PM »

I agree with Mikey that 1200 to 1300 fps is often enough. If the ammo makers would make 3 levels of ammo, it would be a very versatile cartridge: Target & practice at 1250 fps, standard 357 Sigg at 1350, and 357 Sigg +P at a true 1450 to 1480 fps. With a magazine that holds 15 rounds, there would be little need for anyone to own a full size pistol in standard .9 mm.

Ammo makers should try some new bullet weights like 135 gr. 147 gr. bullet is a little long for that short neck.

357 Sigg is a great cartridge as it is currently being made. I've fired S&W M&P, Glock, and Sigg pistols; all were quite accurate. Muzzle blast has a sharper crack, but recoil is in the same league as 9mm+P.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #28 on:** August 24, 2011, 05:02:28 AM »

Quote from: zorba on August 23, 2011, 03:26:19 PM

Muzzle blast has a sharper crack, but recoil is in the same league as 9mm+P.

This is a little oof topic but With my Sig 226 and My S&W SWF9 I would load three rounds then one of the Corbon +P 9mm bullets and then top off the next 11 to 13 rounds. When I was in ROTC they had us load a tracer on top 3 to 5 rounds so when you were shooting and saw a tracer pop out you knew you had X bullets left. I thought it was a good idea for a tactical handgun. Bang, Bang, Boom, and I know I have 3 rounds left, do I reload or finish out.
When I purchased a Sig P229 in 9mm I could not tell the diff between the recoil of the two rounds when trying it on the range. The beefed up slide and springs made for the 357 Sig soaked up all the recoil of the +P. that the larger handguns did not.

williamlayton · « **Reply #29 on:** August 25, 2011, 04:26:35 AM »

I own and shoot a .357Sig---I prefer a 9x23.
It can produce much greater velocity with a number of weights.
All gunskill with proper hits and all guns just wound with improper hits---NO gun will kill with a miss.
I still prefer the .45 for self defense. It is a safe round for over penetration concerns.
It will come much closer to disabling with a poor hit.
Easy on the shooter.
The best round, if you demand speed, high capacity and safer reloading is the 9x23.
Now--if you want a whomper--get a 44mag in a revolver. It is a one stop shooter--course the firs shot must hit---the recoil is fierce.
Blessings