Author Topic: cat sneeze loads + handi  (Read 2115 times)

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Offline siamese4570

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cat sneeze loads + handi
« on: July 16, 2011, 02:32:28 PM »
Been playing with my new talo 357 trapper barrel (thanks Brian1) trying to get a reduced load that is about the same noise level as a 22.  3 gr of bullseye with a lee rnfp 158 was a little noisy but very accurate at 25 yds with a velocity of about 670-680 fps.  Kept working down and I am at 1.5 grs now with a velocity of about 580 fps.  This load is about the same noise level as a 22.  will keep working at this load to check the accuracy.  doesn't seem to be as accurate as 3 grs.  anybody out there got too much time on their hands and have tried something like this?  I'd be curous to hear what your loads are.  Also been playing with my 30-06 barrel.  got real close to a good load and my scope gave up the ghost.  waiting on a 2x7 redfield from bass pro.  Hurry up guys.
Siamese 4570
 

Offline Steve Gold

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Re: cat sneeze loads + handi
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2011, 02:37:46 PM »
Not a 357 but for the 44 mag in a handi, I use 2.5 gn of trail boss under an RCBS 44-245-SWC, loaded backwards in the case and crimped into the grease groove.

About the sound of a 22.

I will be following this thread with interest an my next handi will be a 357 as a silencer host.

Steve

Offline bikerbeans

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Re: cat sneeze loads + handi
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2011, 02:44:05 PM »
siamese,
 
525 grain lead Postel, .459", 9 grain 700X, in a 18.5" 45/70 about 830 FPS.  Shot about 3 to 4 inches at 50 yards from my gun.   Same load at 12.5 grains of 700X is 990 FPS or so and more accurate.  Much slower than 800 FPS and the bullet wil not stabilize from my gun.  If a fellow had a bolt action 45/70 might be a fun round to try. ::)
 
Working on a load for my 30-06 shorty using a 30/06 to 32 H&R Mag chamber adapter, Trail Boss powder, .31" round balls and .310" 110 grain LRN.  No velocity or accuracy data on the 30 cal loads yet.  Wife went back to work so range time has been compromised. :P

BB
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Offline Dinny

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Re: cat sneeze loads + handi
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2011, 07:01:32 PM »
You might try 2gr of Bullseye under a 200gr cast bullet in 38 Special brass. The accuracy at 25yds was good and noise was low. I would need to pull out my data books, but I have good loads for the 30-06 using a 220gr RN jacketed bullet and TB powder, as well as, other loads for the 357 Mag, 243 Win and 30-30.


http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,208470.0.html


Thanks, Dinny
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: cat sneeze loads + handi
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2011, 07:24:24 AM »
With the light powder charge try a round ball, maybe .360ish. Ive used the 'typical .375' for C&B revolvers, sized .359 (cause I have that die), the 'shank' does grab the rifling well.
Long ago I did similar with RBs in my 44M shikari and they were dandy.
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Offline Shu

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Re: cat sneeze loads + handi
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2011, 01:53:43 PM »
I like 10 grains of Unique and a 405 grain cast bullet in 45-70.

Offline geezerbiker

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Re: cat sneeze loads + handi
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2011, 02:37:37 PM »
I use a .433 round ball in my .44 with 4 grains of W231.  It shoots well and is quite but leaves the bore dirty and black...

Tony

Offline bilmac

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Re: cat sneeze loads + handi
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2011, 03:47:12 PM »
You might try the Lee 103 gr SWC bullet. I have very good luck with accuracy using it at low velocities. Haven't really tried for low noise loads. It shoots very well in both my rifles and pistols.

Offline us920669

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Re: cat sneeze loads + handi
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2011, 04:06:34 PM »
You can keep working that load down.  I once tried four tenths gr Bullseye under the 240 gr Keith sized 429 in 44 Mag.  Almost faster to count kernels that weigh them.  Didn't own a crony at that time but bullet could be seen by observer as a fast silver streak.  Noise was not an issue.  They grouped OK although I wasn't really trying for accuracy since they were so far off the bull.  That was in a Ruger SBH, maybe not safe for long barrel although they were still moving at a pretty good clip.  I never went lower after someone put the fear of detonation in me - probably not a valid concern.

Offline olafhardtB

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Re: cat sneeze loads + handi
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2011, 09:50:27 PM »
I use 6.4 grains of unique behind a reversed lee modern minie in a 500 s&w handi. This reduces the empty space in the cartridge. A reversed hollow based wad cutter would the same in a 357 which might be good.

Offline Mike38

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Re: cat sneeze loads + handi
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2011, 07:34:10 AM »
That old tale of too light a load exploding rather then burning must be false? I’ve read horror stories of very light reloaded pistol calibers damaging guns. The powder doesn’t burn fast and expand like it was intended to do. It explodes and don’t even push the bullet out of the case.

Offline us920669

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Re: cat sneeze loads + handi
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2011, 07:58:28 AM »
There is a really good discussion of this elsewhere on the forum - look for "gunshy".  The theory is that the bullet gets stuck in the throat, maybe pushed crooked by pressure squirting past it.  The powder still burns properly but there is no room for it to expand.  I thought my four tenths gr Bullseye was immune because there just isn't enough energy to cause a problem even if the bullet was epoxied in.  Of course, I can't prove it, and I don't do that sort of thing anymore.  Anyway, slow burning powders would seem to be riskier than real fast burners.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: cat sneeze loads + handi
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2011, 08:06:09 AM »
Anyway, slow burning powders would seem to be riskier than real fast burners.

Unless you double charge the fast burner!  :o

Tim
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Offline bikerbeans

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Re: cat sneeze loads + handi
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2011, 08:46:21 AM »
There is a really good discussion of this elsewhere on the forum - look for "gunshy".  The theory is that the bullet gets stuck in the throat, maybe pushed crooked by pressure squirting past it.  The powder still burns properly but there is no room for it to expand.  I thought my four tenths gr Bullseye was immune because there just isn't enough energy to cause a problem even if the bullet was epoxied in.  Of course, I can't prove it, and I don't do that sort of thing anymore.  Anyway, slow burning powders would seem to be riskier than real fast burners.

Much was said in the "Gunshy" thread about possible reasons for the exploding 270 Win.  IMO, the main thing a reloader can take from that discussion is to use published reload data and pay close attention to the reloading process.  It doesn't matter which side of the "detonation" fence you are on if you make a big mistake in your reloading you may be asked to pay the consequences for your error.
 
BB
RIP Tom: Tom Nolan, ( bikerbeans) passed away this afternoon (02-04-2021).

Why be difficult, when with a little extra effort you can be impossible?

Wife's Handis;  300 BLKOUT

MINE:  270W, 308x444, 44 Bodeen, 410 shorty rifled slug gun, 445 SuperMag Shikari, 45 ACP shorty,  45-70 Shikari, 45 Cal Smokeless MZ, 50cal 24" SS Sidekick, 50 cal 24" Huntsman, 50 cal 26" Huntsman, 50 cal 26" Sidekick, 50-70 Govt Shikari, Tracker II 20 ga shorty, 20 ga VR Pardner, 20ga USH, 12ga VR NWTF, 12ga Tracker II shorty WITHOUT scope, 12ga USH, 10 ga  Pardner Smoothbore slug gun & 24ga Profino Custom rifled slug gun.

Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: cat sneeze loads + handi
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2011, 09:06:55 AM »
i  use  185 grain slugs  and 3 grains  bullseye for evey thing
accurate  and actually quieter than a 22 to me


i guess  my heavy slug  holds back the blast more
and  takes up  more case space


i tried  1.8  bullseye [lee dipper on hand]....and  deep seat my bullets
they  are  more  like a high powered  air rifle


also  mine   is a 22 inch barrel
cat sneeze loads  is why ALL  my guns aren't  shorties


with  what you have....try to seat the bullet as deep as you can
like  crimp on the  ogive  not  the crimp ring
get heavier bullets  or double ended wad cutters


i  also  tried  some 120 grain slugs  for  the  9mm.....a waste of time


well  i guess i admitted  i have  TOO  much time on my hands

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Offline Dirty Bob

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Re: cat sneeze loads + handi
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2011, 05:23:04 PM »
I recently posted this to another forum:

Quote
I've been reading Paco's articles and, of course, Leverguns, for several years. I have also read the writings of C.E. "Ed" Harris, who has done some load experimentation similar to Paco's. I've been especially intrigued by the idea of quiet loads in centerfires. I've been shooting the excellent CCI Long CB Caps in long-barreled .22s for years. Their low noise level allows me to practice at the range in the early morning without annoying the neighbors. That load has also accounted for a few rats with well-placed head shots, over the years.

Finally, I couldn't resist any longer. I bought a .45 Colt Rossi M92, with a 24-inch barrel, as well as a .357 Magnum single-shot Handi-Rifle. My intention was to work up some low-velocity loads and see if I could combine low-noise, short-range accuracy and a useful power level into one load.

For the .45 Colt, I already had a Lyman 255-grain SWC mould, and I added two Lee moulds for the .45: a .454 round ball mould, and a 300-grain flat nose mould. For the .357, I already had wadcutter and SWC moulds, but I added a Lee .360 round ball mould and an excellent Lyman 195-grain round nose mould.

With the .45 Colt levergun, I started with .454 round balls, in an attempt to make a quiet load. I was working with Bullseye powder:

  • 1.5 grains Bullseye - Very quiet, but there was a noticeable delay between the "Phfft" of the report and the "Spat" of the bullet hitting the target. At 25 yards, bullet drop was about 1 foot.
  • 2.0 grains Bullseye - Still quiet, but accuracy seemed erratic.
  • 2.5 grains Bullseye - Noise level similar to .22LR, with improved accuracy. It seemed like there was still some erratic behavior. Perhaps I loaded the wrong charge in the very windy conditions, or maybe the position of the powder in the case is affecting velocity. I tested this load with the "Board O' Truth." It completely penetrated four plastic milk jugs full of water (24" in total) and dented the fifth. The ball appeared undamaged.
I also tried the Lee 300 grain .452 WFN bullet. In front of 3.0 grains of Bullseye, recoil was light, and the noise level was again comparable to the .22LR in a rifle. This load penetrated the six remaining jugs of water (I only brought ten!) and kept on going. The first three jugs were split open by pressure.

Finally, I tried the Lee WFN bullet in front of 9.0 grains of Blue Dot: the starting load from Richard Lee's Modern Reloading. There was noticeable recoil, but nothing punishing. Noise was also increased, but it was -- subjectively -- much lower than the report of a high-powered rifle like the .30-06. Accuracy, at least in my first impression with a few rounds, was good. Further testing is called for.

The .357 Magnum testing started poorly and got better. The .357 Handi-Rifle comes without sights. I'm planning to shorten the barrel to about 16.5 inches, so I installed an NDS ghost ring rear and a wood-and-kydex front sight for load testing. The makeshift front sight did not provide the best accuracy test, and serious testing will have to await the barrel cut-and-crown and a new front sight.

With the .360 round ball, I had inconsistent ignition and accuracy when I tried to reduce the load enough to lower the noise level. Several balls had to be tapped out of the barrel. I suspect that the position of that tiny bit of Bullseye powder in the large .38 Special case was at least part of the problem. It may also have been that I needed a larger round ball for the bore of the rifle.

The Lyman round nose bullet was a huge improvement. I started at 2 grains of Bullseye, with the bullet crimped in the groove closest to the bullet nose. Noise levels were perhaps comparable to a .22LR, and accuracy seemed good. As I dropped the powder charge to 1.5 grains of Bullseye in .1 grain steps, the report dropped to air rifle levels, and short-range accuracy remained good. Position sensitivity didn't seem to be a problem like before, but I made a point of pointing the ammo nose-upward just prior to inserting into the chamber. I kept the rifle level while closing the action.

Conclusions
I'm very pleased with the heavy Lyman bullet in the .38/.357 rifle. I hope that even with a shorter Handi-Rifle barrel, I'll be able to get the report down to .22LR or even air rifle levels. In any case, the very mild recoil -- combined with a quieter noise level and very low muzzle blast -- gives us a great training round for beginning shooters and for short-range plinking.

The .360 round balls were an initial disappointment, but perhaps I could crimp the case mouth over the "ogive" of the ball a bit more and increase pressure enough for good ignition. A bulkier powder may also help, as it would be less affected by powder position in the case.

The .454 round balls show some promise, although very windy conditions made at-range reloading difficult and limited the amount of testing that could be done. I suspect that something around 2 grains of Bullseye (or the equivalent load of Trail Boss, or something similar) might be just the ticket to short-range accuracy, low noise, and enough power.

The .452 Lee WFN is a very useful bullet. Cast soft, over a light charge of powder, it showed impressive performance, with a .22 rimfire noise signature. Perhaps further trials may bring the sound down to airgun levels or lower?

I plan to try another fast powder: Trail Boss. This very bulky powder should address any issues of powder position within the large .38, .357 and .45 Colt cases and may be an even better choice than Bullseye for low-noise rounds for rifles and is designed for light charges and low pressures, with lead bullets. It might turn out to be the "perfect" powder for cat's sneeze loads in centerfire rifles. Careful testing is in order.

I recently picked up some Trail Boss to try, to see if I get better ignition in larger cases. I think that heavy bullets are definitely the way to go for cat's sneeze loads. I just haven't had time to devote to it in the last coupla' weeks.

I love the heavy Lyman RN bullet for the .357. Lubed with Lee Liquid Alox, it's been a winner, so far. I have hopes of standardizing on a useful, quiet load with this bullet.

I've yet to try a SWC bullet for this, but I suspect they may be a winner, as well.

Whatever you use, don't bother with hard lead. I'm using air-cooled wheelweights and range lead, with a bit of tin to help casting. I'm convinced that a soft bullet lubed with LLA is the way to go for light, quiet loads. Simple to cast and lube, and cheap to shoot, as well as fun!

I'm also considering trying this in a 22-inch Pardner 20ga., with .575 round balls. Could be lots of fun!

All my best,
Dirty Bob

Offline siamese4570

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Re: cat sneeze loads + handi
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2011, 08:14:35 AM »
Second installment.  Tried the lee rnfp 158 gr and 1.5 gr bullseye again except this time I deep seated the bullet.  I don't have a wc seater stem so the nose of the bullet is stick out of the ase mouth about 1/8th of an inch.  This helped the accuracy (1 1/8" @ 25 yds) but it was a little more noisy although it's still about 22 level.
 
Siamese4570