Jane Fonda - Crybaby, claims QVC is unfair!

[powderman]

I heard a different version of the note story. I saw an interview with one of the P.O.W's and he said that they tried to pass their serial numbers on little peices of paper to hanoi Jane hoping she would do the right thing and pass them on to someone in the millitary bu the story ends the same-betrayal and beatings for all P.O.W.s involved.

 
Sure was, it made ntl news. POWDERMAN. 

[briarpatch]

How would we know if right or wrong? There are apparently two sides to the story. I have not spoken to either.
I do know if you lie in one area, you will lie in others. Character matters.
Do you doubt jane was in Vietnam? With the enemy? during the war? Supporting their cause?

[briarpatch]

It would matter if not true.

[briarpatch]

   

[SHOOTALL]

no the problem is the people who put him there . They can do it again or worst. She sides with them it seems. If these things were not true then why has she not proved them wrong ? I seem to remember an interview back in the 80's were she admited she did some ot these things but not sure how it turned out. Could be mistaken.

[ironglow]

  There are always to be found, clowns who want to defend the indefensible..  In her own words;
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOnG71EgAm4&feature=related
 
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRTxMrxWE9w&feature=player_embedded#at=173
 
   When I was stationed in Geremany and before Hanoi Jane had opened her mouth so often and so erroniously, a battalion in Frankfort voted to select Jane Fonda..as their unit 'sweetheart".  By then, she was already so anti-American that she refused the honor.
   It was then that a woman who was a much more complete woman, stepped up and was pleased to be the unit "sweetheart".
  I always figure Elke Sommer to have more classssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjew

[yellowtail3]

I do know if you lie in one area, you will lie in others. Character matters.

That's a nice saying, and I agree that character does matter, but otherwise... just plain silly. That one lies, does not mean one always lies, any more than one telling the truth, means one always tells the truth. IMHO, of course...

Do you doubt jane was in Vietnam? With the enemy? during the war? Supporting their cause?

No, I don't doubt it. She was there with the enemy (well, with the people we launched an undeclared war against on false pretenses). She was supporting their cause, and not the US government's cause.

If these things were not true then why has she not proved them wrong ? I seem to remember an interview back in the 80's were she admited she did some ot these things but not sure how it turned out. Could be mistaken.

The better question is this: if the accusations are untrue - Powderman's "she passed notes..." tale? - then why do people keep repeating the same lies?

http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/hanoijan.htm#falseinfo

http://www.pownetwork.org/fonda/fonda_update_2001.htm

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/h/hanoijane.htm


Bottom line - the assertion posted in this thread that Fonda passed prisoners' notes to their captors, and that those prisoners were tortured because of this, is simply... untrue. Whether it is a deliberate lie, or simple ignorance, is something I can't speak to. I do believe that some are willing to tell a lie, overlook a lie, and excuse a lie, if it serves their politics.

[SHOOTALL]

Snoops said Jane called American servicemen criminals . She protested for North VN she did not pass notes . OK the other stuff is still enough to justify her treatment .

[yellowtail3]

Snoops said Jane called American servicemen criminals . She protested for North VN she did not pass notes . OK the other stuff is still enough to justify her treatment .

American servicemen, criminals? I guess we'd have to have a standard of some kind. I don't think that American aircrew that bombed Hanoi were any more criminals than the the Luftwaffe pilots who bombed Guernica; both were simply following orders, killing civilians in pursuit of military objectives.

(note: the USAAF killed a lot more people in Hanoi & Haiphong, than the Luftwaffe did at Guernica)

[BBF]

  ......................
......................................
  I always figure Elke Sommer to have ..........................

 Elke !!   Yummy !!

[SHOOTALL]

so you agree she was wrong ?

[ironglow]

Yellow says;
  "Bottom line - the assertion posted in this thread that Fonda passed prisoners' notes to their captors, and that those prisoners were tortured because of this, is simply... untrue. Whether it is a deliberate lie, or simple ignorance, is something I can't speak to. I do believe that some are willing to tell a lie, overlook a lie, and excuse a lie, if it serves their politics. "
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~stood amongb the enemy and called our troops~~~~~~~
   Well, here's what SNOPES (the liberal apologist) says:
    http://www.snopes.com/military/fonda.asp
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Try as they might, even Snopes had to admit she acted as a traitor!  Remember; "giving aid and comfort to the enemy" is TREASON..  It can hardly be denied that she did that..even snopes admits she called our POWs "liars and war criminals" ..and that the enemy declared her one of the "heros" of their fight against the US.
   The only thing the liberal apologists denied was the only one they could..the story of her passing notes to our troops'   torturers.  Such cannot be empirically proven, since the VC were the only ones controlling tghe movie footage.  When some of the POWs returned they made the claim..which hanoi Jane denied.
  We are left then to either believe the American heroes ..or believe the proven traitor...
  In any case, I don't believe you have enough provable evidence for you to justify calling Powderman a liar OR an ignoramus !

[yellowtail3]

  We are left then to either believe the American heroes ..or believe the proven traitor...

Clearly, you did not read the links I provided. The very men who supposedly passed notes and were beaten, have called the story bogus.

  In any case, I don't believe you have enough provable evidence for you to justify calling Powderman a liar OR an ignoramus !

I've not called anyone anything.

  We are left then to either believe the American heroes ..or believe the proven traitor...

Yeah? Well, here you go:
http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/hanoijan.htm#falseinfo

From: Mike McGrath ( mmcgrath@POP.IEX.NET )
Subject: Fonda, Ted Guy, John McCain, false stories...
(1) There is a bogus story floating around about Larry Carrigan, Jane Fonda, torture of POWs, death of POWs, strips of paper, notes given to Jane, etc. I just thought you should know that this is all bull crap propagated by someone for some unknown purpose....probably to bolster some hate against the traitorous witch. I'm not defending her, we all hate her as much as the next person, but you need to get your stories straight. Jerry Driscoll is my Secretary/Treasurer. I just talked to him. Same for A.J. Myers. They had nothing to do with the article attributed to them. They ask that we get their names off that bunch of crap. Tonight I talked with Larry Carrigan. He asked that we get his name off all that crap as well. He never left a room to talk to anyone like that. No torture or beatings to see Fonda. He was living with Bud Day, John McCain and a bunch of hard nosed resistors during the Fonda visit...lots of witnesses if you want to question him (or them). Larry was never near Jane. There were never any POWs killed on account of Jane. (Did anyone ever provide a name of one of these tortured fellows?) That story about the notes has a nice theatric touch, but no such thing ever happened. The only ones who met with Jane willingly, to my knowledge, were CDR Gene Wilber and LCOL Ed Miller. One NAM-POW was forced to go before the Fonda delegation. And I think that was only to sit at a table for a photo opportunity. I doubt he even got a chance to talk to her let alone slip her a note. To my knowledge, the worst that happened to the rest of us was that we had to listen to the camp radio (Radio Hanoi and Hanoi Hannah) with the Fonda propaganda. It pissed us off, but I doubt you can call that "torture." So, if you get a chance to SHUT THIS STORY DOWN to the groups who are forwarding it, PLEASE DO SO. You can cut and paste this paragraph is you want to. Doubters can come to me if they need to. Mike McGrath,
President of NAM-POWs. POW 30 June 67 to 4 march 73. ( mmcgrath@iex.net )

[Casull]

(note: the USAAF killed a lot more people in Hanoi & Haiphong, than the Luftwaffe did at Guernica)

 
Oooooh, worse than nazis.  Funny how the left always ends up going there.   

[Casull]

tm. You bring up crap from thousands of years ago that have nothing to do with subjects at hand then complain of somebody commenting on events of 35 years ago?? I was sure you would back her too. HEH, ya even brought Bush into it.

 
ROFLMAO!  PM, now that is both funny and true. 

[yellowtail3]

(note: the USAAF killed a lot more people in Hanoi & Haiphong, than the Luftwaffe did at Guernica)

Oooooh, worse than nazis.  Funny how the left always ends up going there.   

Is that your conclusion? Do you make no distinction between the Nazis and the Luftwaffe? I suppose one could spin it either way. Anyhow... USAAF had much bigger bombers, and took a lot more shots at Hanoi than the Luftwaffe ever took at Guernica. Of course, Hanoi was better defended than Guernica, as it needed to be.

I don't know if anyone was worse than nazis - I guess that's an individual moral judgement - but I'm dead certain that the tale of Hanoi Jane & Note Passing is a untrue, disappointing though that may be to some.

Surely we can all agree upon that, right?

[mirage1988]

There are those who still believe there are still POW's alive over there too, maybe they are trying to kill the story to protect them- who knows?
 How can you be DEAD CERTAIN it never happened yellow? Seriously? You come on a conservative website and no matter what the subject is you take the contrary position and TYPE IN REAL BIG LETTERS and then cry foul when someone calls you out. It is actually pretty humorous to read some of you and juniors stuff, hopefully you don't actually believe it.

[Casull]

Do you make no distinction between the Nazis and the Luftwaffe?

 
Not really, since the Lufwaffe was under the control and direction of the nazis.

[Doublebass73]

snopes.com is a proven left loving and ideology driven duo. They have been caught in falsehoods to protect their own.
Not a good source of info for or against the left. 
When Jane came to Ft. Bragg to do her march about 69-70 we as soldiers were ordered not to yell or defame in anyway. Which I think was appropriate.
I did notice two sides or views at that time. The draft was still in effect and most there, sure would have liked to be somewhere else.
Those fresh from basic training or new recruits were enamored by the movie star.
They were still into trying to drink the world dry and catch women. Politics was more than most knew. 
The men that had crawled through the rice paddies, and saw the horrors of war in a far off land were most bitter. It was a hard pill to swallow.
They didnot want to fight that war but had no choice. Jane should have pointed to the government as the purpatrators of the war not the soldiers.
It became so bad for the soldier in public that we were told it would be best if we thumbed home to not wear a uniform.
It was a case of placing the blame on the wrong people to protect the very ones  responsible.

Excellent post briarpatch, you summed it up nicely.

Vietnam vets have always held a special place in my heart. Not only did you guys have to fight a tough war like your predecessors did in Korea, Japan and Germany but you also had to deal with a ton of adversity if you were lucky enough to make it home.

[mirage1988]

I have a grip tm7-
Im so far right i meet myself on the way back- To solve our debt problem we need to stop providing "relief, or 'aid'" to haiti, japan,somalia, indonesia, africa, iraq, pakistan, afganistan, mexico, the queers,  and the lazy minority culture in the US who all feel "americans" owe them something, and stop assisting their civil wars.

[Casull]

Wow, tm, your writing abilities have really slipped.  I'm not sure what half of your rambling was about, but Bush was dealing with another country (as POTUS) 35 years after the war ENDED.  What the hell does that have to do with what Fonda did DURING the war?  BTW, you do know that our involvement in Vietnam began under that "right wing wingnut" JFK, don't you?  And since you want to blame "all wars" on right wingers, how about that right winger Roosevelt and WWII?  Man, you must really be off your meds.   

[BUGEYE]

mirage,  you could like I did and put yt3 on ignore  and after reading tm7s love of hanoi jane he's being ignored too.  I get too angry reading traitorous garbage.

edited to add.  am I missing something?  I don't see the ignore button.

[powderman]

edited to add.  am I missing something?  I don't see the ignore button.
 
 
BUGEYE. I haven't found it yet, and I've looked. POWDERMAN. 

[ironglow]

  Despite all the efforts to switch the debate to "notes passed"..whether they were actually passeds or not is a moot point.  The facts are she called the American military "war criminals" and she laughed, joked and cavorted with the enemy..even railing against the US on comunist radio (Axis Sally got 12 years and Mata Hari got the firing squad for the same stuff)...so the firing squad is not at odds with similar historical cases. 
  Forget the "notes"..Jane Fonda (US citizen) "gave aid & comfort to the enemy'..and that's TREASON in anybody's book !

[yellowtail3]

How can you be DEAD CERTAIN it never happened yellow? Seriously?

Glad to answer. The reason I believe 'it' never happened, is because the bogus 'Jane passed notes to the NVA and our men were beaten tortured because of her!' story has been denied by the very men the story names. These guys have come out and said, we don't like Fonda, but don't attach our name to a lie. Pretty convincing evidence it never happened, wouldn't you say?

here you go - read it yourself: http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/hanoijan.htm#falseinfo

You come on a conservative website...

I thought it was a hunting/shooting site (that's what brought me to GBO). I'm a hunter and a gun guy. I'm also a conservative, sort of, but that's not a requirement here, is it?

and no matter what the subject is you take the contrary position and TYPE IN REAL BIG LETTERS and then cry foul when someone calls you out.

Cry foul? How so? So far as calling me out goes... if someone wants to call me out regarding the veracity of something I've posted, they can have at it...  if I get it wrong, I'll 'fess up. By the same token, if another poster puts forward some bogus claim or story and calls it the truth, esp. in support of some ideological/political axe they want to grind... you'll be okay if I call them out, too - right?

The thread is about Jane Fonda, so let's stay on topic and not get into personal stuff. A lie and slander about the subject of the thread was put forward. All I did was debunk it. What's the fuss?

[ironglow]

Again..the 'notes' are just a distraction;
     Despite all the efforts to switch the debate to "notes passed"..whether they were actually passed or not is a moot point.  The facts are she called the American military "war criminals" and she laughed, joked and cavorted with the enemy..even railing against the US on comunist radio (Axis Sally got 12 years and Mata Hari got the firing squad for the same stuff)...so the firing squad is not at odds with historical prescedent. 
  Forget the "notes"..Jane Fonda (US citizen) "gave aid & comfort to the enemy'..and that's TREASON in anybody's book !
 
   ..From Dictionary.com:
 
 
  trea·son      /ˈtrizən/ [tree-zuhn]     –noun 1. the offense of acting to overthrow one's government or to harm or kill its sovereign.  2. a violation of allegiance to one's sovereign or to one's state.  3. the betrayal of a trust or confidence; breach of faith; treachery.

[mirage1988]

Actually the topic was about jane whining about QVC holding her accountable for her FORMER POLITICAL BELIEFS. By former beliefs, that would mean that she know longer believes that way-no? I think she is finally feeling guilty about the suffering she caused our soldiers but can't admit that she was wrong.

[yellowtail3]

Despite all the efforts to switch the debate to "notes passed"..whether they were actually passeds or not is a moot point.

Is there a debate? Does anyone actually believe the story, after hearing from the principals that it's a lie?

Again..the 'notes' are just a distraction

When the truth is inconvenient, deflection comes in handy

Forget the "notes"

I wonder if that is the position you would have taken, before being confronted with the truth?

Actually the topic was about jane whining about QVC holding her accountable for her FORMER POLITICAL BELIEFS. By former beliefs, that would mean that she know longer believes that way-no?

I think that's about right. She's pretty much said that she regrets some things. Some folks like to hold onto bitterness and vindictiveness, and she's experienced that. She's surely learned something about forgiveness, as she has aged, and as she became a believing Christian.

It is unfortunate that the same cannot be said of so many of her critics.

[mirage1988]

Despite all the efforts to switch the debate to "notes passed"..whether they were actually passeds or not is a moot point.

Is there a debate? Does anyone actually believe the story, after hearing from the principals that it's a lie?

Again..the 'notes' are just a distraction

When the truth is inconvenient, deflection comes in handy

Forget the "notes"

I wonder if that is the position you would have taken, before being confronted with the truth?

Actually the topic was about jane whining about QVC holding her accountable for her FORMER POLITICAL BELIEFS. By former beliefs, that would mean that she know longer believes that way-no?

I think that's about right. She's pretty much said that she regrets some things. Some folks like to hold onto bitterness and vindictiveness, and she's experienced that. She's surely learned something about forgiveness, as she has aged, and as she became a believing Christian.

It is unfortunate that the same cannot be said of so many of her critics.

Only she and the Almighty know for sure if she has truly been forgiven, real christians don't speak in the doubletalk that leads one to hear only what they want to hear.

[powderman]

yellow. I know what I saw and heard years ago, I still believe she turned those guys in. Even if she didn't she's still a traitor. You say she's a Christian?? Both you and the obamination says you are too, so what?? She gave aid and comfort to our enemies, she should pay for that. She should have been arrested, jailed, fined, then deported to N Vietnam 35 yrs ago. POWDERMAN.