Author Topic: affordable SXS (Read 2486 times)

Noreaster · « **on:** July 21, 2011, 01:14:53 PM »

Looking for an inexpensive double for pheasant hunting and breaking clays once and a while. Keep hearing stay away from the Stoeger. Really like the CZ but can't afford one. Not seeing any 311s around but there is a couple used Savage Fox on the shelf locally. For my use is the Stoeger ok or should I buy a used 311 or Fox b. I appreciate the feed back.

spruce · « **Reply #1 on:** July 21, 2011, 04:05:14 PM »

Only have experience with one Stoeger shotgun. Bought an IGA S/S 20 gauge coach gun several years ago (about 20 or so).
The right barrel shot low and to the right and the left barrel shot high and to the left. Centers of the patterns were a good 2 feet apart at about 15 yards!

Fairly common problem with cheap S/S's or O/U's. I think the CZ's are about the least expensive new guns that you can depend on to have the barrels properly regulated.

The various Savage/Stevens/Fox models have always had a reputation as solid, dependable, workhorse shotguns and I would not be afraid to buy one for the purposes you described.

Graybeard · « **Reply #2 on:** July 21, 2011, 07:07:50 PM »

I've owned several Stoger SxS guns in both 20 and 28 gauge. Never had a minute's trouble with any of them. Kinda wish I'd held onto them. I'd not be afraid to buy another.

There is a good deal of difference in the feel of them. My first was a 28 ga that felt almost as clunky in hand as a 12 ga. The next one was far more slender in the grip and felt really nice. I traded it on a 20 when I was told I couldn't use the 28 for CAS then only shot one match before deciding the game wasn't for me. I'd buy another 28 or maybe even 20 if I found one that felt right in hand.

S.E.Ak · « **Reply #3 on:** July 21, 2011, 10:02:42 PM »

For your purpose its hard to go wrong with the Savage Fox guns if priced right and proper chokes for your needs.The old Nitro specials and Flues Ithica guns are also in the same price range Any of the older American guns in twenty guage will cost about twice the price of a twelve

RB Rooson · « **Reply #4 on:** July 22, 2011, 03:35:02 AM »

Have shot two (2) Stoeger shotguns for the past 13 years.....not a lick of trouble with either one of them....and I shoot in competition twice a month, every month for the last 13 years. Alot of continous hard use in all types of weather.

Stay away from Stoegers.....why??

Noreaster · « **Reply #5 on:** July 22, 2011, 07:44:42 AM »

Thanks for the info. The Stoeger is looking better and better. The Fox I found has improved modified in each barrel, not really what I am looking for. I just found an Eibar (think thats right,) in good condition. Spanish double. Gonna have to what another week or so. Thanks again for the info.

S.E.Ak · « **Reply #6 on:** July 22, 2011, 09:52:34 AM »

Imp/Mod is my favorite choke. Many of the pre 1980 Spanish guns had very soft steel inside and doubled a lot.

huntswithdogs · « **Reply #7 on:** July 22, 2011, 11:18:01 AM »

I had a Stoeger single triggered gun and doubt I'll have another. I've not heard too many problems with the double triggered guns though.

HWD

Noreaster · « **Reply #8 on:** July 22, 2011, 01:08:48 PM »

Well I got chance to handle allot of doubles today at the Trading Post in Maine. I like the Stoeger. For used guns two jumped out at me as far as the way they handled, a JC Higgins and a Ithaca. The Ithaca was only 80% and I'd have to reblue it if I was gonna use it bird hunting. Might go back for the JC but it's 20 gauge and I had my heart set on a 12. The Savage Fox B was ok. Probably gonna end up with a new Stoeger they are good handling and not to much more for a new shotgun.

S.E.Ak · « **Reply #9 on:** July 22, 2011, 08:52:14 PM »

What one has to remember about outfits like Stoeger is the have put their name on hundreds of guns built by hundreds of different makers. Fourty years ago a person might say they have a wonderfull Stoeger SxS and another say he had one that was junk and it could well have been true.Through the years Stoeger has sold shotguns for six hundred dollars and at the same time sold one for a hundred and twenty five dollars. Some will say I had a Stoeger Luger 22lr and it was junk well maybe so but they also sold German civilian model Lugers and the were great

keith44 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 22, 2011, 10:35:00 PM »

I can't speak for the larger gauges, but I have handled two Stoegers in the past few years, both .410 gauge. One was a so called coach gun the other had longer barrels and tighter chokes. Both are hammerless both are functionally perfect. The tighter choked, longer barreled model is my favorite in the small bore, but in a 20 the coach gun with more open choke would be a great quail and pheasant gun.

As for the Fox guns, I've shot a few, and can say nothing bad about them. They are what they are, used s x s guns with american flair. Built for a purpose not grace, but most handle well if not great.

JPShelton · « **Reply #11 on:** August 15, 2011, 03:37:50 AM »

I shoot a Baikal IZH 43 in 12 bore and I've been very pleased with it. Barrels are properly regulated, fit and finish is good, the gun is steel shot approved, and it is threaded for choke tubes.

I got mine second hand but excellent condition at a gun show for $175.00.

I've got about 5,000 rounds through it now and no issues whatsoever.

JP

keith44 · « **Reply #12 on:** August 15, 2011, 09:00:32 AM »

JP, with that many shells through it, perhaps you can answer some questions I have about the Baikal guns.

A few years ago I handled a new one in a store. The pivot felt way too tight, and stiff. The stocks felt a bit chunky and gave the impression that the forearm section might work loose.

How is the pivot, will it drop open when unlocked or is it still too stiff to do that? Has the forearm remained tight or is there a slight movement in it?

I'm asking because I'm getting a new "gun dog" and feel that justifies a new gun

JPShelton · « **Reply #13 on:** August 16, 2011, 12:22:14 AM »

Quote from: keith44 on August 15, 2011, 09:00:32 AM

JP, with that many shells through it, perhaps you can answer some questions I have about the Baikal guns.

A few years ago I handled a new one in a store. The pivot felt way too tight, and stiff. The stocks felt a bit chunky and gave the impression that the forearm section might work loose.

Bear in mind that I bought my Baikal as a USED gun at a gun show. I have no idea how many rounds were through it before I bought it, or what manner of gunsmithing may or may not have been done to it by a previous owner. That said, the gun did not appear to have many rounds through it at all and I doubt if it has had any gunsmitthing done to it.

I'm not sure what is meant by "clunky" in terms of the feel of the stocks. I have no complaints with mine. One of the reasons why I wanted this gun, among many, is that it fits me as if bespoke and it feels good to me on the swing. My Baikal does take more force to break open than the Ugartechea 20 bore side by side that it replaced did, but my "Uggie" was an extractor gun. The Baikal has selective ejectors and the ejection of the spent shell is VERY FORCEFULL. It will kick the empty hulls out 10 or 15 feet behind me if I don't catch them in my hand. Some of the "stiffness" in breaking the gun is undoubtedly due to stout ejector springs. I like the forceful ejection and the "stiffness" isn't overy so to me.

Quote

How is the pivot, will it drop open when unlocked or is it still too stiff to do that? Has the forearm remained tight or is there a slight movement in it?

The hinge pin remains in great shape, as does the "hook" on the monoblock. When the gun is in a cocked condition, it does not "drop open" when the top lever is thumbed. My Uggie didn't "drop open" when cocked, either. I had it for 25 years and put about 25,000 rounds through it and it still didn't "drop open". When cocked, the barrells on the Baikal will drop ALMOST open, but the bottom of the extracted shells do not clear the fences of the receiver. My Uggie was the same way, and frankly, I prefer that to completely dropping open. The gun is rendered safe, and my hunting buddies can see that clearly, if I have to tend to a dog or something while out on a hunt, but I don't run the risk of inadverdantly dumping one or both shells on the ground because enough of the rim is captured by the fences to keep the rounds extracted but still in the gun. My Baikal was like this when I first shot it. Nothing seems to have changed. It hasn't gotten noticably "looser." But I am okay with that because I didn't fnd it to be objectionably tight to begin with.

My Baikal is a single selective trigger gun. I THOUGHT I wanted a double trigger / extraction only version (as my Ugartechea was) BUT in using the single selective trigger, I have come to like it quite a lot. I haven't had any misfires or experienced "doubling." So far, the single selective trigger has been totally reliable. Also, because of the Model 21-like location of the barrel selector, I can switch barrel firing order with a sweep of the trigger finger during the mount and with practice, this has worked out for me as well as double triggers in terms of quickly choosing between available choke constrictions when making a shot.

JP

keith44 · « **Reply #14 on:** August 16, 2011, 06:35:52 AM »

Thanks JP, I'll give 'em a second look.

By saying that the stock felt chunky I meant that it seemed too thick and just seemed too big for the tubes.

By saying clunky I mean the mount and swing were not fluid. To me the dimentions of that one just did not fit me.

It is nice to hear that the quality is there for those it does fit.

Thanks again.

JPShelton · « **Reply #15 on:** August 17, 2011, 05:08:57 AM »

Quote from: keith44 on August 16, 2011, 06:35:52 AM

Thanks JP, I'll give 'em a second look.

By saying that the stock felt chunky I meant that it seemed too thick and just seemed too big for the tubes.

By saying clunky I mean the mount and swing were not fluid. To me the dimentions of that one just did not fit me.

It is nice to hear that the quality is there for those it does fit.

Thanks again.

On mine, I think the forend wood is proportional to the rest of the gun. Using your definition, I don't think it is as "clunky" as my father's 20 gauge Savage / Fox Model B with its beavertail forend.

Also, the barrels on mine measure about 25.5" from the breech to the muzzle. It most likely would have been advertised as a 26" barrel. Most that I have handled in 12 bore had 28" barrels, IIRC, and they didn't have that lively, between the hands balance that mine does. The balance point on my Baikal is pretty much identical to what it was on my Ugartechea. The Uggie was a joy to carry, but shooting? Not so much. It definitely felt lively because of the balance and light weight but it didn't feel very "fluid" to me.

I want to stress, too, that I didn't buy my Baikal based on price. I bought it because it fit well, felt great on the swing, and had all of the features I found desireable -particularly the chrome-lined bores and muzzles threaded for choke tubes.

I had given up on finding a Baikal side by side. Plenty of over and unders in my area, but I don't care for them.

Since you mentioned giving them a second look, I should have made it more clear that mine is an early EAA import. Maybe its my imagination, but I think the older EAA imports are nicer guns than the same thing with Remington's brand on them.

Another inexpensive side by side is the Yildiz sold through Academy Sports and Outdoors.

JP

keith44 · « **Reply #16 on:** August 17, 2011, 03:12:17 PM »

I also prefer the side by side to the over and under guns. The feel and swing just seem more natural to me, and the wider sighting plane has always made me more confident with the low passing shots ya get from quail when the dog circles back and flushes a covey while retrieving. Happened alot in my youth, not so much lately

Bullseye · « **Reply #17 on:** August 17, 2011, 05:03:07 PM »

Baikal !!!!!!

Last one of them I had could not be used to kill a squirrel at any range. There basically was no pattern, lost my butt on that gun.

Graybeard · « **Reply #18 on:** August 17, 2011, 07:51:54 PM »

I've held but never fired a bunch of those Russian guns. They all feel about as comfortable as holding a 2x4. Way more wood than needed and butt ugly but tough as nails. I know of one guy no make that two guys who shoot them at skeet and do as well with them as other guns I've seen them shoot. Neither of them are among the better shooters at the range.

JPShelton · « **Reply #19 on:** August 22, 2011, 04:04:23 AM »

Quote from: Graybeard on August 17, 2011, 07:51:54 PM

I've held but never fired a bunch of those Russian guns. They all feel about as comfortable as holding a 2x4. Way more wood than needed and butt ugly but tough as nails. I know of one guy no make that two guys who shoot them at skeet and do as well with them as other guns I've seen them shoot. Neither of them are among the better shooters at the range.

Well, as I said, I don't think mine is butt ugly at all. Actually, I think it is a nice looking gun. It sure has a decent set of walnut on it -wood that would be right at home on an A y A 4/53 boxlock. I'm not much of a skeet shooter -I find the game kind of boring, actually. But I am addicted to sporting clays. I took the gun out to California last month, and shot at Triple B's the day after the California State Sporting Clays Championship was held, so I shot on the same course. I shot 85%, which is about 5% better than I did on a far less demanding course layout at the same facility with my previous guns. Here at my home course (Quail Ridge) in Oklahoma, I shot that course in the 90% percentile, which is about 10% better than my previous best shooting it with my Ugartechea. I shot a round there with a borrowed 1100 Sporting and went 80% with it, too.

So, the Baikal might not impress anybody else. But it works for me. I have to assume that it might work for someone else, too.

JP

JPShelton · « **Reply #20 on:** August 22, 2011, 04:23:26 AM »

Quote from: Bullseye on August 17, 2011, 05:03:07 PM

Baikal !!!!!!

Last one of them I had could not be used to kill a squirrel at any range. There basically was no pattern, lost my butt on that gun.

I'm running Carlson cylinder, skeet, I/C, and Imp. Mod. chokes in mine, and the standard Baikal Mod. and Full. The all pattern great with Wal Mart Federal Promo Pack 7 1/2's and also with AA Sporting Clays 7 1/2 and 8's. With the short, stubby "Tru-Choke" tubes used, I'm kind of surprised at how well mine patterns... But it patterns well and the barrel regulation is spot-on so I don't have any issues at all getting a limit of squirrels for the dumpling pot. You don't want to be a valley quail, chukar, or phesant near this gun during the upland season, either

.

I am not deluded into thinking that it is a high-grade gun because it isn't. It is what it is. I think it happens to be a nice field-grade gun of respectable quality and I shoot it well, so I've got very little to complain about. In fact, I really DON'T have anything to complain about and the more I shoot the Baikal, the less inclined I am to spend the money I have been saving for a Merkel 1620 on a different gun. This one is working just fine for me.

I reckon I got lucky, but at $175.00 out the door, I didn't have a whole lot to loose if the gun didn't work out for me. That is part of the reason why I waited so long to get one. I was waiting for the right deal on a clean, used example, so I wouldn't have to take a huge hit on depreciation if it proved unsatisfactory.

So I hope that readers take the quoted post to heart along with mine. I love my Baikal IZH-43 to death but if I were to buy another for some reason, I WOULD NOT BUY A NEW ONE. I would instead look for a killer deal on an older, early EAA import like the one I have, just in case it didn't pattern well, or I couldn't hit anything with it.

JP

Rickk · « **Reply #21 on:** August 26, 2011, 08:27:23 AM »

The single trigger Stoegers are know for doubling. I had one that went back twice before they called me and told me that the Stoeger single trigger models and I were incompatible and they swapped it for a double trigger version.

I presently have two of the double trigger "supreme" coach guns. No problems so far with either of them. The supreme model costs about 100 bucks more than the standard version, but comes with a functional rubber recoil pad as well as screw-in chokes. Those two features made it worth paying the extra money. Mine have the stainless receiver as well ( I shoot black powder in them, so stainless is a nice feature ).

Rick

manatee1947 · « **Reply #22 on:** August 26, 2011, 05:54:36 PM »

This thread is hilarious and warms my heart, it is why I love an am at home on the GB site, I just came from another shotgun forum where they were discussing whether $10,000 shotguns were really worth it, or if people shooting "cheap" $3,000 guns could really compete on a national level. I will run across a 20 ga TDC one of these days at a good price and be very happy. If I had $10.000 I could replace both my vehicles.

keith44 · « **Reply #23 on:** August 26, 2011, 08:50:48 PM »

One of my favorite memories of my short foray into trap shooting is of taking my 20 ga 870 to the 16 yard line and breaking 98. The dude beside me had a 12 ga Perazzi and left P.O.'d cause he only broke 80. He literly threw the gun into the bed of his truck (without putting into a case) and left ruts in the grass when he peeled out.

'course me sayin' something 'bout the meat n' taters guns being a better choice while waiting our turn to shoot just might have been more than he could stand.