Author Topic: Handi Problem? (Read 1392 times)

bigvarmnt · « **on:** July 21, 2011, 05:01:49 PM »

All my rifles have been in protective custody for about a month and a half. Couldn't be without a rifle any longer so bought a 22-250 unfired from a member here. I took the stock off to be sure it was a sb2 frame. The stock bolt that came with it was a bit messed up and bent. I had a new style syn stock and put it on with new bolt. Threads seemed OK. It fires fine with Win White box but I have to really push HARD on the button to get it to open. Open and closes fine if I don't shoot it. Also can't get it to close on the fired case. Want to shoot it more but afraid it may not open as it seems to be harder each time. I looked through the Faqs but not good enough I guess. I know the bolts are a different length but Faqs say it would make a problem for the hammer I believe. Holding off on reloading for it until I get this figured out. Would like to shoot it this weekend.
HELP PLEASE! Thanks

Ten Ring · « **Reply #1 on:** July 21, 2011, 05:08:24 PM »

I think this is common with this cartridige. My wife's was like that and I was concerned also. I think it was Tim that told me this was a common trait. I polished the latch and it is a lot smoother and easier to open after firing now.
Jim

Fred M · « **Reply #2 on:** July 21, 2011, 05:30:31 PM »

You have a head space proplem. Read the FAQ and correct it. Make sure you have no oil on the latch seat and see if it is smooth. Also check the stock bolt and make sure it is not too ltoo long, since the oridgional was bent.

Spanky · « **Reply #3 on:** July 21, 2011, 07:31:40 PM »

My 22-250 Handi did the same exact thing. I got rid of it and got another 223. No problems now.

Spanky

Farrier Matt · « **Reply #4 on:** July 22, 2011, 03:01:26 AM »

I had a 22-250 that would break open every time it was fired. Got rid of it too. Only bad experience Ive had with Handis though.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #5 on:** July 22, 2011, 06:43:50 AM »

First of all, there are many happy 22-250 owners here, myself included, mine shoots great with handloaded 50gr Vmaxes.

The fired cases won't fit back in the chamber because they're too hot, or as Fred said, there's excess head space from either a poorly fitted barrel or too deep a chamber, this has been a common problem reported before for the 22-250 even with factory ammo. If you look across the barrel to standing breech joint after the shot before breaking it open, you'll see a gap between them at the top, a sure sign of something wrong, the hard to release button is the second sign, if there's no gap, you may be able to lap the latch and shelf smoother by applying a metal polish to the shelf, close the action and work the latch button...... until your thumb falls off!!!

Then clean it up and see if it still does it, H&R is always available to make repairs if it doesn't help, but I'd definitely try different ammo first.

Pop opens are usually caused by ignorance(lack of knowledge about Handis

), easily fixed, as usual see the FAQs.

Tim

Spanky · « **Reply #6 on:** July 22, 2011, 08:52:46 AM »

Mine was a factory gun.

Spanky

bigvarmnt · « **Reply #7 on:** July 23, 2011, 03:51:15 AM »

Wouldn't want to sell this to someone as I now feel how they would feel when they received it. So I guess I have to deal with it myself. I put the fired cases in a Headspace gage and they stick up a little farther on one side of the case head. There is also a slight but noticeable bulge in one side of the cases. New and fired cases from a Rem 700 fit in the gage flush all the way around. Was chamber drilled at an angle?
Either way I guess it should go to the factory. Will they send one of the return labels I've heard about and will they take care of it? It is an older NU supposedly never fired factory gun and barrel.
The latch looked fine and gun functions perfectly till I fire it. I don't want to file and shim to try to get it to work properly.
Should I load a couple medium loads and see if they fit back in after firing in case the factory Winchesters were too hot

Or is the chamber just not right? Thanks for all the help.

Farrier Matt · « **Reply #8 on:** July 23, 2011, 04:38:02 AM »

Pop opens are usually caused by ignorance(lack of knowledge about Handis

), easily fixed, as usual see the FAQs.

Tim

Not sure if this is directed at me, but I feel like it is. In the case of my 22-250, I tried 5 different types of ammo, all with poor accuracy and pop opens. Read the stuff on this site, dries the internals, tried again to same effect. Called Handi, got it in the mail. It took over 3 months, but I got it back, and couldnt tell that anything had been done to the rifle. Took it to the range, and no change. Gun still popped open. Now I hate to hijack a thread, but Tim, what could I have done differently to make this rifle shoot? I like my Handis, just dont want any more in 22-250.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #9 on:** July 23, 2011, 06:20:20 AM »

BV, I'd try some different ammo first, the milder loads in properly sized brass would be a good choice. If you want to send it back, call them, tell them what you've told us and ask for a return shipping label, can't hurt.

Matt, if that was with all factory ammo, make em fix it, you wouldn't be the first to have to send a rifle back more than once. $:-\$ If all 5 loads were handloads, they may not have been sized properly.

Tim

bigvarmnt · « **Reply #10 on:** July 23, 2011, 08:00:01 AM »

I think I will load a couple of my proven loads used in bolt guns and see if it still happens. I know those factory 45 gr Wins are a bit on the fast side. Maybe they are too much for the little Handi. I don't usually go for top speed just accuracy even though a 22-250 is made for speed, I think. I wonder if that will stop the brass from stretching more on the one side

If this don't work I guess I can see if the factory can fix it in a try or two. Not sure I'm ready to go through that process right now. Would hate to wait a couple months for it to come back the same.
Thanks Tim, maybe the light loads will get me back to shooting again.
PS If I use new brass do you think I should full length size it.

av-doctor · « **Reply #11 on:** July 23, 2011, 08:14:12 AM »

If its stretching noticably to one side i'd say the chamber is out of spec. It will most likely do it with any load you try. I'd send it back!

P.S. anytime you load for a handi you should full length resize.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #12 on:** July 23, 2011, 08:31:00 AM »

If the loads are too warm, the brass will grow more on the top side than the bottom, look for the gap after the shot before hitting the release button, you'll be able to see a sliver of light across the gap at the very top that narrows the lower you look. This is caused by flex in the action under pressure, when the brass grows, it won't allow the barrel back into the pre-shot position (no gap) which makes the release button hard to press.

Tim

Ten Ring · « **Reply #13 on:** July 23, 2011, 10:02:30 AM »

I wouldn't give up on it too quick. Although my wife' s action is still stiffer than any other Handi we own she shoots three shot 100yd. groups with vmax ammo you can cover with a nickel.
Jim

Spanky · « **Reply #14 on:** July 23, 2011, 11:04:05 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on July 23, 2011, 08:31:00 AM

If the loads are too warm, the brass will grow more on the top side than the bottom, look for the gap after the shot before hitting the release button, you'll be able to see a sliver of light across the gap at the very top that narrows the lower you look. This is caused by flex in the action under pressure, when the brass grows, it won't allow the barrel back into the pre-shot position (no gap) which makes the release button hard to press.

Tim

That was exactly the case with mine.

Spanky

Farrier Matt · « **Reply #15 on:** July 23, 2011, 02:34:57 PM »

I never shot anything but factorie fodder in mine.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #16 on:** July 24, 2011, 06:30:54 AM »

I cant afford to shoot factory, so it is no problem for me to find the 'high end' that the rifle wants and back off the load by 5-10%. This drops pressures a lot, still does the job and doesnt cause any more rifle issues. What could be better than that?

av-doctor · « **Reply #17 on:** July 24, 2011, 02:08:39 PM »

What temp was it when you were shooting? Is there a chance the loads were hotter(for lack of a better word)due to higher outside temps?

bigvarmnt · « **Reply #18 on:** July 24, 2011, 04:08:01 PM »

I full length sized a couple pieces of brass and loaded a 55 gr Sierra soft point with 34 gr Varget. Max shows 36.5 and shot one and the same thing happened. There is a very noticeable gap after firing and is very hard to open. I've never ran across this with any of my other Handis. The gun locks up tight and functions perfectly until I shoot it.
I took one out each time from a comfortable 74 degrees into 90+ but shot within 30-60 seconds each time. Waited about 10 min between each shot.
I did leave the gun outside but kept the ammo inside. About 1/2 the case head sticks out above the edge of the case gage. They were uniform in the gage before firing. Sounds like some of you have run across this before. I will try to contact the Factory.
Thanks for all your help and ideas.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #19 on:** July 24, 2011, 08:34:09 PM »

How's the barrel fit without the forend on?

Tim

gcrank1 · « **Reply #20 on:** July 25, 2011, 05:14:57 AM »

This may be a good place to revisit some fundamentals.
FWIW, with any gun I shoot, if it 'displays' issues at a certain load level, then it has issues at that level. ( I know this sounds simplistic), it tells me to back off because it doesnt like it there.
It is cause for a complete review of the situation, from bullet weight to dia. to bore, etc., not just the gun itself. We will assume the gun has passed the pre-fire tests and seems sound.
The load high pressure indicators should not be disregarded, even if your load is 10% below the book max.; it could still be too high for the platform in your particular firearm. I prefer to start low and work up until I began to detect issues rather than start high and work backwards, but I know sometimes it just happens. Most of all we want you to be safe in your pursuit of fun with your rifle.

bigvarmnt · « **Reply #21 on:** July 25, 2011, 05:13:20 PM »

Tim, It seems to fit up as tight as can be without forend on.
Do YOU think I need to work up a few different loads with different powders at a much lower starting point. I really haven't tried to load any HOT LOADS for this gun. I would be alright with 223 velocities if they were accurate and the gun would open. I just want a rifle that I can shoot right now until I can get my hands on some others. I can also shoot this one as is if you don't think it will damage something inside.

If my thumbs get TOO sore I can carry a hammer

Thanks

quickdtoo · « **Reply #22 on:** July 25, 2011, 07:25:28 PM »

I'd follow gcrank's suggestion and use start data instead of a mid level load, it may have a tight bore or be short throated so the bullets are slightly into the lands, if they are touching the lands, Quickload software says it will increase the start pressure by 7200psi which is a lot!

You'll know right away if it's better with the start load.

Tim

bigvarmnt · « **Reply #23 on:** July 26, 2011, 03:29:48 AM »

My Hodgdon data lists 34 gr of Varget AS A STARTING LOAD. I've never tried to load the 250 below published starting levels. I don't feel comfortable only filling this large of a case half full.
I think I have some 35 gr Vmaxs, they are pretty short. Maybe they are too big in diameter. I loaded to published OAL as did the factory. I can try Trail Boss. In over 30 years of shooting and reloading I've never ran across a gun that if in spec. would not function properly shooting Factory ammo or start data loads. Never too old to learn I guess.
I'll think on what else to try, maybe some .223 dia. Hornet bullets or pistol primers would help. I'm starting to understand why I've fought the feeling to get a Handi in 22-250 all these years as the 250 is one of my favorite carts. Should always go with my gut feelings. Thanks I'll be in the experimental lab for a little while. At least I'm shooting

gcrank1 · « **Reply #24 on:** July 26, 2011, 03:58:34 AM »

BV. Ive never had that cartridge, or Varget, but in my 36+ years of reloading have never had a powder that had as narrow a load range as 34 as a start to 36.5 for top. That indicates, for me, that it is kinda touchy.....? The idea of using some other powders is a very good one. Also check the case trim to lengths and/or maybe make a chamber cast (even canning wax can make a decent CC) to make sure your brass isnt too long for the chamber, which will spike pressures when it tries to release the bullet.

bigvarmnt · « **Reply #25 on:** July 26, 2011, 12:05:36 PM »

From Hodgdons Website just picked the 55gr SP:
Start Max
H4350 37.0 39.0
H414 36.0 39.0
H380 38.0 41.0
BL-C(2) 31.0 34.0
H335 30.5 33.0
H4895 32.5 35.5
Bmark 31.6 33.6
H322 28.0 30.0
*Not responsible for this data. Use at your own risk.
The IMR powder is about the same amount b/t start and max.
Now maybe you can start lower but that's what's on their site.
I've been loading for over 30 years and the 22-250 was the first CF rifle cart. I loaded for. First time I've had any problems with it. It's usually a very accurate and devastating round. I learn each day that I don't know everything so don't get me wrong.
Thanks for the tips but I just want to shoot, not a science project. I should have bought another 223 as the Handis I've had in 223 shoot pretty good. I just don't listen to that little voice in my head when I know I should. I still may try a really lite load just to see if it will open but I believe it is a chamber issue. I appreciate all the help but this is not getting me where I want to go. I just want to shoot in a relaxing way. Thanks BV

quickdtoo · « **Reply #26 on:** July 26, 2011, 06:41:24 PM »

BV, if you look at the pressures for those start loads, you'll see some that are considerably lower than others, look at the PSI and CUP data separately cuz they're not comparable, for instance Hybrid 100V is 43.5kpsi and 4007SSC is 56.6kpsi, a LOT of difference for start loads!!

H414 and 760 are 40.2kcup, Varget is 46.1kcup, pick a powder you have and load a few with the start load and see how they do, and take two aspirin.......

Tim