Author Topic: help reloading for rem 7400 auto (Read 1692 times)

max1138 · « **on:** July 22, 2011, 06:24:45 AM »

wondering what to use when reloading for an auto, never tried it before
rem 7400 270win have plenty 130 grain bullets and 2 powders
,h4350,re22
which would be better in an auto
any general reloading info on automatics?
I use bolts and single shots so this is new to me
I would think max charges are a no go in an auto, I dont load to max in any of my firearms anyway
just need a reliable hunting load that wont kill the weapon or the user

Edit: after reflection I realized phrased my question wrong.
which would be better for a gas operated automatic powder wise, the quicker 4350 or the slower re22?

does the pressure rise time of either powder affect the operation of the gas operating system.

I know on garands and ak's there is a requirement for how hard the piston and rod system can be pushed as relates to pressure rise time in the barrel and gas port. does any such thing pertain to a 7400 series autoloader

BBF · « **Reply #1 on:** July 22, 2011, 07:08:22 AM »

I see no reason whatever to think that you cannot load ammo up to the SAAMI pressures for any USA made firarm regardless of type.

The 7400 or 7600 which has an identical bolt/receiver design is as strong as you ever need. Feed whatever ammo your rifle shoots best with. R-22 is slower then H-4350. For the 130 gr bullet I would go with
H-4350. If you should load 150 gr. bullets one day you could give the R-22 a try but that doesn't mean you should not try H-4350 either.

jasonprox700 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 22, 2011, 07:24:01 AM »

Remember to full length size!!! Very important.

Zeak · « **Reply #3 on:** July 22, 2011, 11:16:14 AM »

I recomend that you get a small base die set for the auto loader. If you don't the auto will jam. I reload for a 7600 and use regular dies and it cycles a little hard on some reloads this is the pump version of the 7400. Starting with new brass will also help if you haven't got small base dies. Zeak

jasonprox700 · « **Reply #4 on:** July 22, 2011, 03:25:24 PM »

I had the same issue with my .308. I was using regular dies. I ended up setting up the sizer die so that at the top of the stroke, the shell holder was touching and slightly camming over against the die. I used to run it all the way up, thread the die in until it touched, and then back it out 1/8 to 1/4 turn. After camming over, it has been a night and day difference!

Unfortuntily, I had about 500 rounds already primed, so I removed the decapping pin, and ran them all back through and wiped off the lube by hand. What a PIA! Oh well, I guess that's how you learn.

BBF · « **Reply #5 on:** July 23, 2011, 10:54:55 AM »

The idea of a small base die has me intrigued. I have one in 30-06 and I'm still not convinced it is needed.
Let us go through this step by step.

New factory load chambered, fired and ejected....................No problems
Rechamber that fired case.............It should, it just came out of the rifle unless the chamber is not cylindrical then the case probably will not chamber. That would be similar with any action.

Reload the case and attempt to chamber............... If it doesn't, why not? What did the Die do to the case that fit before?

If the case fits by neck sizing only with a FL Die, continue to size more then just part of the neck, at what point does the case not chamber or doesn't it matter?

If a regular FL Die does the job, why use a small base type which works the brass more then needed.

rickt300 · « **Reply #6 on:** July 24, 2011, 11:47:12 AM »

My 7400 is in 30-06. I load it with 57.0 grs of IMR 4350 under a 165 gr. Pointed soft point CoreLokt bullet. I also reccomend what Jasonprox700 says about sizing cases. As for your question about the piston and rod system the 7400 is more like a M16 in having no rod and piston in place, the gas hits a spring loaded cup set in a Y shaped setup. It is important that you keep this area clean, the spring free of rust. These rifles function very well and if you have good magazines will keep on doing just that.

oneoldsap · « **Reply #7 on:** July 24, 2011, 12:57:05 PM »

You will find out right off whether you need Small Base Dies or not ! Run your Brass through your FL sizer . Screw your die in till it touches the ram , lower the Ram and turn the Die in another quarter turn . Make up a couple of Dummy rounds and see how they cycle . If the bolt won't lock up , give the Die another quarter turn and try again . If they still don't work , you need to try a small base Die . Faster Powders work better in the Rems. , like IMR-4064 , W-760 or H-414 . The slower powders tend to beat the gun up more than neccessary . The Rem action has no Buffer , so you don't want to slam it anymore than needed for it to work dependably ! A clean and polished Chamber goes a long way in whether they work well or not ! If it gives you a hard time , just trade it towards a Pump !

rickt300 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 24, 2011, 02:44:05 PM »

I don't know if you consider the 4350's slow or not but the reason the M1 Garand and M14 worked better with fast powders is that their gas systems had heavy pieces moving with some momentum, this isn't true with the 7400 which has a Y shaped piece of metal moved by direct gas impingement and it doesn't weight much compared to the actuating rods of the M1 and M14 systems. I don't know if you would call it a buffer but there is also a substantial spring slowing the Y shaped actuator down too. I would not use any powder that left a lot of residue in the chamber either, and this is why I use IMR 4350 instead of H380 or any ball powder, it is much cleaner burning. I would bet 4064 would work well also.

max1138 · « **Reply #9 on:** July 24, 2011, 03:35:07 PM »

thanks rickt300, that the sort of answer I was looking for, this is for my best friends auto and I know nothing about these weapons. and he asked for some ammo to hunt with this fall, once I test it for function with the sizer and get it loading dummy rounds correctly Ill load him a couple hundred with the h4350 after I find a good
low-midrange loading.

Ill be overseas come hunting season so he needs to fill his freezer and mine this year and I dont mind loading a hundred or two for him.

Grumulkin · « **Reply #10 on:** July 24, 2011, 04:44:05 PM »

I've loaded for a number of semiautos including a Remington 742 and never needed a small base die in any of them.

While it's true that a Remington semiauto can take any load that isn't over SAMI maximum specs, determining pressure by reading case signs is a bit trickier than in a bolt action. Also, the action isn't as strong as a bolt action so it would be best not to test the upper limits of a load in a semiauto.

While it's true that a Remington 7400 isn't made the same way as an M1A or a Garand, it's not as durable either. Personally, in loading for one, I would look at the powders recommended for M1A and Garand rifles in the Hornady manual and use no powders slower than those.

BBF · « **Reply #11 on:** July 25, 2011, 07:46:29 AM »

Quote from: oneoldsap on July 24, 2011, 12:57:05 PM

................................
.............................
A clean and polished Chamber goes a long way in whether they work well or not!..........................

Excellent advise not only for the chamber, clean ammo is important as well !

BBF · « **Reply #12 on:** July 25, 2011, 07:56:49 AM »

I presume Remington tests all of their rifles with so called "Blue Pills" which exceed SAAMI by a fair margin. I don't see an artillery style bolt lockup any weaker then the conventional style. I don't read these warnings when the BAR's are discussed.

I believe Rem 7400 went back to two lugs on the bolt anyway for simplicity. The 742 has still the multiple lugs.

Instead of using the slowest powder to give my the wanted V as I used to, I switched to the fastest keeping consistant groups as a priority.

From the Lyman# 48 Handbook Page 181
Max load with the 130 gr Sierra BT for IMR 4350 is 54.5 gr to achieve 3032 fps from a 26" barrel
" " " " " " " " " Rx 22 " 60.0 gr compressed to achieve 3173 fps same barrel

The max load with the fastest powder is 49.5 gr of IMR 4064 resulting in 3014 fps same lenght barrel

The V max difference bertween Rx 22 and IMR 4064 is 159 fps. I suspect with a 22" barrel the difference would be less.

The C.U.P Pressure difference is 1,200 with IMR 4064 being the lowest and Rx being the highest.

parkergunshop · « **Reply #13 on:** July 25, 2011, 08:22:13 AM »

Scatterbrain,

Remington went from the multiple lug bolt on the 742 auto to the four lug bolt on the 7400 for three reasons that I have seen:

1. The multiple lugs on the 742 were prone to getting battered up and developing burrs after a few hundred rounds of ammo being used. This caused the rifes to malfunction. This was accelerated by the use of hot handloads.
2. There was a problem getting even bearing surfaces for all the lugs (Fit) with the multiple lugs in an ongoing manufactuing operation. Even bearing is much easier to accomplish with a reduced number of lugs.
3. A safety issue developed with the multiple lug bolt used in the Remington 788 bolt action with rear locking lugs, that could apply to the 742 also with a severely overload round.

A combination of above seems to have caused Remington to move away from multiple lugs. 742's are know to have a short life span as far as reliable operation goes less than 1,000 rounds, with excellent care taken.

Automatics seem to work best with medium weight bullets 150-180 grains in the 30-06and the medium burn rate powders from my experience.

The .270 Winchester chambering seems to have more problems than the 30-06 due to the higher pressures with the .270 round.

Slow burning powders tend to damage the gas and operating system because the pressure cure is too high out at the gas pick up point in the barrel.

This is not a handloaders dream gun.

LanceR · « **Reply #14 on:** July 25, 2011, 08:42:51 AM »

Add me to the list of folks who don't think you will need a small base die. Having spent many years involved with the Army and National Guard competitive marksmanship programs I am very familiar with the process of loading for M1, M14 and AR-15 style rifles and can't ever remember seeing or hearing of anyone using a small base die.

That said, most self loading firearms lack anything like the camming action of a bolt gun to seat or extract a tight case. They also (with the exception of the AR-15s) lack the "primary extraction" of the bolt rotating the case and slightly extracting it as the bolt unlocks. Cases that are tight to begin with can get pretty sticky come extraction time and that leads to a lot of stress on the extractor and can delay extraction and ejection enough to cause ejection, feeding and locking issues since some of the energy that should have been used to push the bolt back has been used to get the tight case out of the chamber.

All in all, the best way to ensure proper feeding, locking and later extraction with most autoloaders is to use a standard full length die and raise the ram up all the way with the proper shell holder in place. Then screw the die down until it touches the shell holder. Now, screw the die in 1/8 to 1/4 turn and lock the locking ring. You should definitely feel the "cam over" already addressed by others. This is also a good way to adjust dies for brass that has to fit a variety of different firearms.

Your ultimate case life will typically be shorter with an autoloader due to the full length sizing and the fact that autoloaders, pump and lever guns tend to allow brass to stretch more than single shot and bolt guns. The first signs of weakness usually show up down at the bottom of the case wall just above the web. That 's where most of the stretching happens in any case but most of the resizing happens up at the shoulder area for bottleneck cases.

As far as your powder, H4350 and Reloader 22 are both a little slow burning for most autoloaders. Except when used on heavy for caliber bullets (160-180 grain for a 270) they will still be burning when the bullet passes the gas port and they will cause more powder fouling than is desirable. They can also subject the action to higher than optimum gas pressures since the powder is still burning and pressure is usually rising. With a faster powder where the powder has burned by the time it gets to the gas port the pressure is dropping. All this means that the already mentioned H4064 and also H4895 are usually much better choices. In fact the H4895 was first developed by the Army for the M1 Garand.

They both work very well in nearly any 30-06 or .308 family case with most bullet weights. Both will work on .277 bullets up to 160 grain and the H4895 will work on 180 grain .277 bullets. I'd be kind of surprised though if a 7400 had a fast enough twist rate to stabilize these heavier bullets.

The H4895 is probably the most versatile powder on the market. It can be used in everything from .222 to .458 Win Mag and is the best reduced recoil powder made. I'd get a can of either of them before loading H4350 or R22 with 130 or 150 grain bullets for a 270 autoloader.

Good luck and thank you for being willing to help out someone else.

Lance

BBF · « **Reply #15 on:** July 25, 2011, 08:53:14 AM »

Lance:
Re-read the bullet weights you posted for the 270 Win. I think your brain had a 30-06 in mind.

Re lifespan for a 742. Mine is 50+ years old, I'm not the first owner so I can't tell how much the rifle was used. I had the barrel cut back recently and the G-Smith polished the chamber and checked the lugs. He was satisfied with the rifle. I don't load hot and do not use it for target shooting so I presume it will outlive me.

LanceR · « **Reply #16 on:** July 25, 2011, 01:41:03 PM »

scatterbrain, if you are referring to the 160 and 180 grain .277 bullets I was, in fact, referring to .277 bullets. Nosler makes a 160 grain Partition, Woodlieigh makes a 180 grain protected point, Barnes used to make a 180 etc. They're out there for folks who need or want 'em.

The Hodgdon website shows current 160 and 180 grain data for a lot of powders.

Lance

Grumulkin · « **Reply #17 on:** July 26, 2011, 12:23:06 AM »

When I had my 742 in 308 Winchester, I used mostly IMR 4064 with 168 gr. bullets in it. It was quite accurate. I put probably at least 3,000 rounds through it before there was a problem with the bolt rails; from what I've read about them, I was quite lucky that it went that long.

rickt300 · « **Reply #18 on:** July 26, 2011, 07:34:18 AM »

From what I have read the later versions like the 7400 were redesigned to last longer than the 742/740 versions and that using the right lubricants could reduce reciever wear greatly. However it is not likely that my 7400 will run 3000 rounds as I use only for hog hunting and nowadays it gets less than 100 rounds a year thru it.

BBF · « **Reply #19 on:** July 26, 2011, 10:40:24 AM »

Read and learn !

I wasn't aware of those heavy bullets in .277
I believe Speer and possibly one Canadian Co made 170 RN's at one time, that was a long time ago.