Gitmo, Abu Gharib and the torture question..

[ironglow]

  Here's the most decorated military man since General MacArthur..putting it all into context.  Yes I tried "Snoops" and all they did was to slip-slide around the issue.  Factcheck didn't touch it..and the Daily Kos got all flustered by it, but grudgingly admitted that the man is who he says he is...and experienced what he said he did..so it must be true..
       http://itmakessenseblog.com/2010/12/02/a-real-hero-asaf-colonel-george-everett-bud-day/
 
 
   BTW:  I just discovered that news site..look down the left hand column for some very interesting articles..I believe I will put it in my "favorites" list.

[BUGEYE]

Well here I go,  I'm sure the mods will either delete this or ban me but I couldn't care less.
I will stand up for my country and it's heros just like I do my Lord.

ANY MAN WOMAN OR CHILD WHO SUPPORTS THIS PRESIDENT AND HIS CRONIES AND THE LIBERAL FOOLS IN CONGRESS IS TOTALLY ANTI-AMERICAN AND ANTI-GOD  AND IS THE ABSOLUTE CAUSE OF EVERYTHING THAT WE HAVE WRONG WITH THIS COUNTRY TODAY. SHAME ON YOU.

[powderman]

Well here I go,  I'm sure the mods will either delete this or ban me but I couldn't care less.
I will stand up for my country and it's heros just like I do my Lord.

ANY MAN WOMAN OR CHILD WHO SUPPORTS THIS PRESIDENT AND HIS CRONIES AND THE LIBERAL FOOLS IN CONGRESS IS TOTALLY ANTI-AMERICAN AND ANTI-GOD  AND IS THE ABSOLUTE CAUSE OF EVERYTHING THAT WE HAVE WRONG WITH THIS COUNTRY TODAY. SHAME ON YOU.

 
BUGEYE. Agreed Sir. If I had a choice of what that brave AMERICAN went through or standing naked on a bucket with a pair of pink panties on my head guess which I would choose. The hate America crowd is trying to destroy us. POWDERMAN. 

[BUGEYE]

we have the 2nd amendent and we have the very reasons documented as to why it is in the constitution.  the time is approaching to put it in to action.   the liberals say that everything can be settled in the voting booth. hogwash.  this president stated that the constitution is a flawed document.  he took an oath to protect and preserve it.  that statement negates any protection he might have from the constitution.  him or his liberal cronies.  I grew up in a time and place where we had FREEDOM.  now I see my country crumbling before my eyes and I'm mad as hell about it.
I'm too old and decrepit to fight but I can furnish guns and ammo.
now our resident socialists can weigh in.  you know,  the ones who think they'ed be secure with this communist president. they do not deserve freedom.   

[yellowtail3]

ANY MAN WOMAN OR CHILD WHO SUPPORTS THIS PRESIDENT AND HIS CRONIES AND THE LIBERAL FOOLS IN CONGRESS IS TOTALLY ANTI-AMERICAN AND ANTI-GOD  AND IS THE ABSOLUTE CAUSE OF EVERYTHING THAT WE HAVE WRONG WITH THIS COUNTRY TODAY. SHAME ON YOU.

Thanks for sharing your thoughtful analysis.



I'm wondering... can one be anti-God while being pro-American? Or can they be pro-God, while being anti-American? I'm trying to figure out the link between God, and America (as opposed to any other country)

How about Belgians? Can they be pro-God, while being anti-American? Fill us in on the connection... ?

[powderman]

yellow. I'll try to answer since Bugeye wisely has you on ignore, good for him. Yes, aetheists can be pro American. To me, it would be hard to love God and hate America, possible I guess but doubtful. I'm sure for you seeing the connection between God and America would be terribly confusing. Our Nation was founded by Christians and our constitution and laws were based on the Holy Bible and Cristian principles, so I can see why you would not understand that. I don't know much about Belgium but know that they have nothing to do with this thread. You are simply trying to get under Bugeyes skin. POWDERMAN. 

[srussell]

ANY MAN WOMAN OR CHILD WHO SUPPORTS THIS PRESIDENT AND HIS CRONIES AND THE LIBERAL FOOLS IN CONGRESS IS TOTALLY ANTI-AMERICAN AND ANTI-GOD  AND IS THE ABSOLUTE CAUSE OF EVERYTHING THAT WE HAVE WRONG WITH THIS COUNTRY TODAY. SHAME ON YOU.

Thanks for sharing your thoughtful analysis.



I'm wondering... can one be anti-God while being pro-American? Or can they be pro-God, while being anti-American? I'm trying to figure out the link between God, and America (as opposed to any other country)

How about Belgians? Can they be pro-God, while being anti-American? Fill us in on the connection... ?

i do believe the man is trying to say that the want to be,s in washingtion and their supporter's are trying to destroy both ( America and the worship of god)_ now tell me why you think it funny

[yellowtail3]

Looks like Col. Day has a diff opinion that Sen. (formerly Captain) McCain. Nothng noteworthy there; we've all gone one, right?

Besides... McCain as Sen outranks Day's O-6 (ret)

[ironglow]

Yellow..now you're rambling...

[BUGEYE]

yes, I have him on ignore for my health.  I actually have chest pain when I see or hear people trying to destroy what used to be the greatest country on earth.  IT also upsets me when people mock God and there's 3 members here that are good at it.  I welcome every religion except those who are out to kill Christians and Jews.  if you support islam that means you would like to see me dead.
if you're ever face to face with me, do NOT mock my God.

[yellowtail3]

Yellow..now you're rambling...

I was commenting on the thread topic. Would you prefer I not? Or just that I not ramble. Okay, I'll be more pointed:

Why does Col. Day refer to President Obama as a 'pretend president'? Obama won the 2008 election; nothing 'pretend' about that. I'll guess that the (real) Col. Day understands about rank and respect, and keeping the personal out of it so as to avoid confusion. Maybe he's bought into the culture of contempt to widespread these days in ideological circles, left & right. Doesn't sound like something a MoH Col. would write.
 
Even if he does have plenty of altitude, the good Col. should adjust his attitude a bit, assuming he wrote it.  I wonder if he'd have tolerated one of his junior officers referring to him a 'pretend Colonel' ??

From Ironglow's linked article: "Our make-believe president is
 Branding our country as a bunch of torturers... "

I don't recall President Obama referring to the US as 'a bunch of torturers' - when did this happen?  I'd be curious to see the quote - 'a bunch of torturers'

Supposedly from Day:
"Next day hung me by the arms…rebroke my right wrist…wiped
 Out the nerves in my arms that control the hands….rolled my fingers
 Up into a ball.  Only left the slightest movement of my L forefinger.
 So I started answering with some incredible lies."

The idea behind waterboarding/torture, as I understand it, is that it gets information. That torture does not reliably get information/answers is one of the objections of those who oppose its use by America... and apparently, that was the case here. Sounds like torture didn't work on Col. Day, so... what exactly is the point here, Ironglow?

[us920669]

I wonder what happened to the German saboteurs a sub landed in - what, New Jersey? maybe Florida? - I forget the story, but it happened.  I bet Roosevelt's boys worked them over pretty good.  I recall, can't cite the source, but President Carter even stumbled through a defense of the ticking bomb theory - if you know there is a ticking bomb and you've got the guy who planted it, you don't read him his rights.

[yellowtail3]

I wonder what happened to the German saboteurs a sub landed in - what, New Jersey? maybe Florida? - I forget the story, but it happened. 

I'll guess you refer to Operation Pastorius (they landed in NY & FL). Two of them defected and went to the FBI, and spilled all. All the others were quickly captured based on info provided by the two traitors, and were executed after being tried by a military tribunal (that falls under, 'we'll give 'em a fair trial before we hang 'em!')

...all without going Gestapo on them.

[gr8ful]

Looks like Col. Day has a diff opinion that Sen. (formerly Captain) McCain. Nothng noteworthy there; we've all gone one, right?

Besides... McCain as Sen outranks Day's O-6 (ret)

I would say that is because Col. Day is not a sell-out, pandering, VOTE WHORE.  It is a shame that we have come to expect dishonesty in our leaders.

[BBF]

 
....................................if you're ever face to face with me, do NOT mock my God.

Geez, that reads a whole lot how Muslims react when someone attacks their religion and culture.
 
Re: Ignore, you have no idea how long my list is.

[BUGEYE]

 
....................................if you're ever face to face with me, do NOT mock my God.

Geez, that reads a whole lot how Muslims react when someone attacks their religion and culture.
 
Re: Ignore, you have no idea how long my list is.

scatter, if they'd quit murdering people and repent we might let up. but their imams encourage murder.  my preacher has not asked me to kill anyone yet.

[SHOOTALL]

Looks like Col. Day has a diff opinion that Sen. (formerly Captain) McCain. Nothng noteworthy there; we've all gone one, right?

Besides... McCain as Sen outranks Day's O-6 (ret)

Only to those in AZ who voted for him. I can think on many American service men who IMHO out rank most if not all politicans past and present. But I use honesty and hornor as a yard stick.
As for God how many countries place God in their frame work ?

[Casull]

All the others were quickly captured based on info provided by the two traitors, and were executed after being tried by a military tribunal (that falls under, 'we'll give 'em a fair trial before we hang 'em!')

Are you saying that a trial before a military tribunal can NOT be "fair"?  What exactly do you have against the US military?

[Casull]

The idea behind waterboarding/torture, as I understand it, is that it gets information. That torture does not reliably get information/answers is one of the objections of those who oppose its use by America... and apparently, that was the case here. Sounds like torture didn't work on Col. Day, so... what exactly is the point here, Ironglow?

 
Did you really not get the point?       The point appears to be that waterboarding is NOT torture.

[Casull]

If you think being tried in a room where the defence, judge, and prosecution are all on the same side is fair

 
That is probably the lamest thing you've said . . . today.  They may be wearing the same uniforms, but they are not all "on the same side". 

[Casull]

and that if repeated enough routinely results in brain damage

 
Really?  Pardon me if I don't take your word on that.   

[yellowtail3]

Are you saying that a trial before a military tribunal can NOT be "fair"? 

No.

What exactly do you have against the US military?

Nothing in particular (I was a member of the US military).

[yellowtail3]

Did you really not get the point?       The point appears to be that waterboarding is NOT torture.

Oh, I got the point... but that point is an out & out falsehood, so I don't subscribe to it.

[Casull]

Big guy!!....they work for the same outfit....this is not arguable.  Wakeup and smell the coffee.

 
tm, I would have given you a little more credit than to try to hang your hat on that.  You do realize that in a criminal trial, the judge and prosecutor both ALWAYS work for the same "outfit" (the government).  And, if you have a public defense attorney, then he or she also works for the same "outfit" (the government).  And the ones investigating the crime work for the same "outfit" (the government).  OH and BTW, those that you are disparaging in the military justice system ALSO work for that same "outfit" (the government).   

[Casull]

That's a fact Jack....suffocation (hypoxia) results in brain damage and other organ damage..sheeezzz, its in every medical book.

 
That's BS!!!!!!!   Like many small thinkers, you take what MAY happen and claim that it ALWAYS happens.  So, Jack, it's not a fact that "suffocation (hypoxia) results in brain damage", but it is true that it MAY result in brain damage (otherwise, every time you held your breath, it would result in brain damage).  You do realize that the brain can be deprived of oxygen for minutes WITHOUT damage, don't you?  That's in every medical book.   

[yellowtail3]

Hey, notice this: in the linked article at top of thread, Col. Day, when he was broken by torture, started telling... lies.

The argument in favor of waterboarding, is that it gets intel (which to be useful needs to be true), and is not torture.

Is is the position of waterboarding advocates that had the NViet resorted to waterboarding (not torture) instead of torturing (is torture) Col. Day, that they'd have gotten truthful info out of him, instead of the lies produced by torture.

[Casull]

Is is the position of waterboarding advocates that had the NViet resorted to waterboarding (not torture) instead of torturing (is torture), Col. Day, is that they'd have gotten truthful info?

 
I really couldn't say (and neither can anyone else here).  But, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that it would be at least as truthful (and much more voluminous) as any intel received by asking nicely.   

[BUGEYE]

those old boys doing the waterboarding nearly always have some foreknowledge before they start asking questions.  they know when someone is lying.  the so-called torture is for fleshing out bones of their ideas.  turn ME loose in gitmo and I'll get you some real info.  stop and think about the torture the people in the twin towers went through when they knew they were about to die.  think about the familys when they see how their loved ones died. that's real torture. think about the people who had their heads sawed off with a dull knife.  anybody who has a problem with waterboarding needs to do some soul searching.  of course that's assuming they have souls, which I doubt.

[powderman]

those old boys doing the waterboarding nearly always have some foreknowledge before they start asking questions.  they know when someone is lying.  the so-called torture is for fleshing out bones of their ideas.  turn ME loose in gitmo and I'll get you some real info.  stop and think about the torture the people in the twin towers went through when they knew they were about to die.  think about the familys when they see how their loved ones died. that's real torture. think about the people who had their heads sawed off with a dull knife.  anybody who has a problem with waterboarding needs to do some soul searching.  of course that's assuming they have souls, which I doubt.

 
BUGEYE. Good post. Seems some here always seem to pick the bad guys to agree with instead of Americans. AND, they do have souls, we all do, it's who they belong to that is the question. POWDERMAN. 

[ironglow]

Yellow;
  I can see you have no experience at interrogation..but first a couple points
 1) The Navy commander suffered REAL torture..that is not debatable..broken bones, crushed fingers, bones re-broken lacerated scrotum, hamburger butt and all.
 2) I suppose you would say that you would not 'break' under that torture..but I could not guarantee the same..
   OTHER POINTS you may have missed
A) His lies did not fool his questioners...and there is no indication that they were near the level of our CIA.
B) It has already been published that the waterboarding of that fat guy with all the hair (the one that looks like Rosie O'Donnel) has already resulted in saving many American lives because of the many othe terrorist leaders killed or captured due to information provided by him.
C) One does not interrogate in a vacuum.  If you have 3-4 suspects which would have the same knowledge..keep them incommunicado from each other..then after interrogation (with water if necessary), compare notes ..where they are far apart probably a hoax...where they jibe..probably true.  What's the odds they all made up the same story..out of the blue ?  DUH..
   Really the choice is simple..
 
 A) waterboard terrorist leaders..as above.
                     OR
 B) Be nicey-nice with the terrorists and absorb many more, perhaps thousands of American injuries & deaths.
   
                                        ...Not a difficult choice for an AMERICAN with an I.Q. above  72  .