Author Topic: Gitmo, Abu Gharib and the torture question.. (Read 7011 times)

powderman · « **Reply #30 on:** July 25, 2011, 05:49:06 PM »

IRONGLOW. Good post Sir, not a hard decision for any real American I wouldn't think. YES, waterboarding has saved American lives. I care more about them than the godless ones who finally got a much needed bath. POWDERMAN.

yellowtail3 · « **Reply #31 on:** July 25, 2011, 06:50:48 PM »

Quote from: ironglow on July 25, 2011, 04:08:52 PM

Yellow;
I can see you have no experience at interrogation..

Can you see that? How can you see that? Does this mean... you have some speshulized experience at interrogation, that gives you unique insight over my own experiences? Do tell....

Quote

1) The Navy commander

What Navy commander? Who are you talking about? Bud Day was Air Force weenie... who is the CDR you refer to ?

Quote

OTHER POINTS you may have missed

All I've missed so far is the identity of the CDR you refer to, and I've not recognized your unique interrogation experience - but you're gonna share both, right?

Quote

A) waterboard terrorist leaders..as above.
OR
B) Be nicey-nice with the terrorists and absorb many more, perhaps thousands of American injuries & deaths.

...Not a difficult choice for an AMERICAN with an I.Q. above 72 .

It is a false choice, one easily made by Americans, even those with lower IQs. You position, it sounds like, is that... those who don't believe torture (yes, waterboarding) should be used, all have... sub-normal IQ levels? Or you just being clever?

John McCain says that waterboarding is torture, doesn't approve of it. You got more experience in these matters than he does, or are you just mouthing off? I know McCain didn't graduate at the top of his class... but I'll be his IQ is over 72. He punched out as an O-6; what rank did you achieve in your military career?

OldSchoolRanger · « **Reply #32 on:** July 25, 2011, 07:40:05 PM »

YT & TM,

How about this from your hero.

OBAMA'S OWN WORDS TRAP HIM:
2008: " Guantanamo is entirely unnecessary, and the detainees should not be interrogated."
2011: "Vital intelligence was obtained from Guantanamo detainees that led to our locating Bin Laden." (In case you forgot, this intel was obtained thru the use of water boarding.)

ironglow · « **Reply #33 on:** July 26, 2011, 01:09:45 AM »

This question is much like dealing with conspiracy addicts....

"For those with understanding, no explanation is necessary;
For those who will never understand, no explanation will ever do"..

ironglow · « **Reply #34 on:** July 26, 2011, 01:13:32 AM »

From Yellow;

"What Navy commander? Who are you talking about? Bud Day was Air Force weenie... who is the CDR you refer to ?
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Yellow, I admit to having mispoke about the branch of military...but I don't consider Air Force personnel as "weenies"..

You can call these guys "weenies".. http://www.military.com/air-force-special-tactics/training.html

..but don't try it to their face...

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #35 on:** July 26, 2011, 02:27:09 AM »

Quote from: yellowtail3 on July 25, 2011, 01:43:30 PM

Hey, notice this: in the linked article at top of thread, Col. Day, when he was broken by torture, started telling... lies.

The argument in favor of waterboarding, is that it gets intel (which to be useful needs to be true), and is not torture.

Is is the position of waterboarding advocates that had the NViet resorted to waterboarding (not torture) instead of torturing (is torture) Col. Day, that they'd have gotten truthful info out of him, instead of the lies produced by torture.

Its all about what is wanted . If the reason for torture is to make lies it can do so. IE North VN did such. If the purpose is to gain intel and it can and will be checked with threat of death if false information is given then the expectation of truth is high.
With military courts one is better off than just being shot. It is a fact finding exersise and better than many other countries offer. The guy on trial is an enemy , would it be better to use 12 other pow's as jury ?

BUGEYE · « **Reply #36 on:** July 26, 2011, 02:46:41 AM »

to become a navy seal you have to go through a lot worse than water-boarding.
and, Iwould imagine that anyone who calls any special forces a weenie. is indeed a weenie himself.

us920669 · « **Reply #37 on:** July 26, 2011, 03:34:57 AM »

I was trying to make the point - rather clumsily I guess - that governments do what they have to. Mr. Yellowtail informed me that two of the WW II German saboteurs decided to defect (smart Nazis) and tipped us off. If they hadn't, if J Edgar Hoover got wind of the fact that a bunch of die hard Nazis were rambling around the US with high explosives or anthrax, he would have pulled out all the stops, maybe a few fingernails too. Distasteful but understandable. The fact that Obama could change his tune on this without missing a beat should tell us something.

People like McCain are "against torture" because it is not consistent with out narrative (propaganda). We are the West, we are Christian, we do not torture for sport, as the North Vietnamese apparently did and as many other totalitarian states have done and no doubt still do. I think Col. Day is incensed that Obama is willing to say whatever he has to in pursuit of his immediate objectives. That's the problem with having a president who is utterly ruthless and amoral.

powderman · « **Reply #38 on:** July 26, 2011, 04:56:13 AM »

What Navy commander? Who are you talking about? Bud Day was Air Force weenie... who is the CDR you refer to ?

yellow. You are totally rude and disrespectful to our brave military personnel, calling a former tortured brave American a weenie. You claimed to have been in the military, WHOSE?? What country did you represent?? POWDERMAN.

Casull · « **Reply #39 on:** July 26, 2011, 05:12:05 AM »

Quote

Hypoxia is oxygen starvation...enough starvation always leads to cell and organ damage...always and ultimately death

So, if they do it until the person dies, it causes death. Gee, thanks for clearing that up.

powderman · « **Reply #40 on:** July 26, 2011, 05:58:08 AM »

Quote from: Casull on July 26, 2011, 05:12:05 AM

Quote
Hypoxia is oxygen starvation...enough starvation always leads to cell and organ damage...always and ultimately death

So, if they do it until the person dies, it causes death. Gee, thanks for clearing that up.

YUP, glad we're all straight on that now. POWDERMAN.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #41 on:** July 26, 2011, 07:02:17 AM »

So it seems some here feel it better to allow Americans to die rather than kill or torture the enemy. And were wonder why our country has gone down hill since WW-2.
When we were a great nation we killed the enemy and those who supported them.

yellowtail3 · « **Reply #42 on:** July 26, 2011, 07:27:32 AM »

Quote from: us920669 on July 26, 2011, 03:34:57 AM

I was trying to make the point - rather clumsily I guess - that governments do what they have to. Mr. Yellowtail informed me that two of the WW II German saboteurs decided to defect (smart Nazis) and tipped us off. If they hadn't, if J Edgar Hoover got wind of the fact that a bunch of die hard Nazis were rambling around the US with high explosives or anthrax, he would have pulled out all the stops, maybe a few fingernails too. Distasteful but understandable. The fact that Obama could change his tune on this without missing a beat should tell us something.

It would tell us that governing is diff than campaigning, that's for sure

Quote

People like McCain...

These would be the one that Ironglow thinks have sub-72 IQs...

Quote

"...are against torture" because it is not consistent with out narrative (propaganda). We are the West, we are Christian, we do not torture for sport, as the North Vietnamese apparently did and as many other totalitarian states have done and no doubt still do. I think Col. Day is incensed that Obama is willing to say whatever he has to in pursuit of his immediate objectives.

That may be why Day is incensed, but I'll tell you... I don't think Day wrote it, or all of it. It just doesn't ring like a MoH full-bird Col. I could be wrong on that, of course, but probably not. But then again... he was a Swift-boater, so maybe polytics is his game.

Quote from: SHOOTALL on July 26, 2011, 07:02:17 AM

When we were a great nation we killed the enemy and those who supported them.

'...then the they took God out of the schools, and now we can't torture and kill without someone complainin'! Waaaaaaaaaaaahhhh!'

BUGEYE · « **Reply #43 on:** July 26, 2011, 07:39:03 AM »

Quote from: powderman on July 26, 2011, 04:56:13 AM

What Navy commander? Who are you talking about? Bud Day was Air Force weenie... who is the CDR you refer to ?

yellow. You are totally rude and disrespectful to our brave military personnel, calling a former tortured brave American a weenie. You claimed to have been in the military, WHOSE?? What country did you represent?? POWDERMAN.

clinton, kerry, imam obama they all hate the military and all are traitors to there country.
I was an Airforce weenie. never saw combat, but was willing to so these traitors could mean-mouth me as they enjoy the security that our brave men/women gave them.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #44 on:** July 26, 2011, 08:06:47 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on July 26, 2011, 07:02:17 AM

When we were a great nation we killed the enemy and those who supported them.

'...then the they took God out of the schools, and now we can't torture and kill without someone complainin'! Waaaaaaaaaaaahhhh!'

Whats taking God out of the schools got to do with it ? Maybe no child left behind or no child can experince a failing grade may be part of it though. When we worry more about the complainers than the soilders and those we are sent to help then some thing is wrong IMHO . Guess I don't understand fighting a war you don't intend to win. I don't understand sending men in harms way without intent to protect those men with every possible means including extracting imformation any way you can. They can skin the bas----s alive if it saves American lives for all I care.

Casull · « **Reply #45 on:** July 26, 2011, 08:46:15 AM »

Quote

too much induced hypoxia can result in organ/brain permanent damage....that is a definition of torture.

According to who? BTW, what is the definition? Is it too much induced hypoxia? Is it anything that results in organ/brain permanent damage? Also, who is KSM? Really, all your acronyms sometimes confuse me. Please tell us WHO says that what you wrote is the definition of torture.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #46 on:** July 26, 2011, 08:55:25 AM »

its causing agony or pain . damage is not mentioned in Webster. That might be a by product .

yellowtail3 · « **Reply #47 on:** July 26, 2011, 10:29:13 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on July 26, 2011, 08:55:25 AM

its causing agony or pain . damage is not mentioned in Webster. That might be a by product .

I believe that's the appeal of waterboarding: you can repeatedly cause agony and pain, if you're careful not to overdo it. There's no inconvenient dying, and no disfigurement in troublesome photographs.

FourBee · « **Reply #48 on:** July 26, 2011, 01:32:52 PM »

Quote from: BUGEYE on July 25, 2011, 04:55:05 AM

yes, I have him on ignore for my health. I actually have chest pain when I see or hear people trying to destroy what used to be the greatest country on earth. IT also upsets me when people mock God and there's 3 members here that are good at it. I welcome every religion except those who are out to kill Christians and Jews. if you support islam that means you would like to see me dead.
if you're ever face to face with me, do NOT mock my God.

Because God has been silent does not mean he is like us.
He's coming soon, and in his fury a consuming fire will go before him, and terrible storms will be all around him, and the proud and haughty shall see him stand in their face, and he will tear them in pieces. Even a 4 year old knows that all the saints will follow him on white horses, all of them with swords to do battle.

yellowtail3 · « **Reply #49 on:** July 26, 2011, 03:22:42 PM »

Quote from: FourBee on July 26, 2011, 01:32:52 PM

Because God has been silent does not mean he is like us.
He's coming soon, and in his fury a consuming fire will go before him, and terrible storms will be all around him, and the proud and haughty shall see him stand in their face, and he will tear them in pieces.

Yikes - who are the proud and haughty - how can you spot 'em? And why does God want to tear apart the people that Jesus died to save?

Quote

Even a 4 year old knows that all the saints will follow him on white horses, all of them with swords to do battle.

I'll admit, my four years olds (when they were four) didn't know that; they just knew that God loved them, as their Daddy loves them. They didn't know anything about Him tearing anyone to pieces.

This is sounds more like the Allahu ahkbar! crowd than the are you washed in the blood? saints...

powderman · « **Reply #50 on:** July 26, 2011, 04:50:03 PM »

yellow. Don't you ever get tired of fishing?? POWDERMAN.

FourBee · « **Reply #51 on:** July 26, 2011, 06:17:43 PM »

Quote

Even a 4 year old knows that all the saints will follow him on white horses, all of them with swords to do battle.

I said "A 4 year old", not all 4 year olds.
I'll try to explain: This 4 year old had a ruptured apendix for 5 days before they found it. They nearly lost him on the operating table.
A few months after his recovery, as the family were chatting and daddy in a teasing way asked the 4 year old if he wanted to go back to the hospital. An emphatic "NO" was his response. But what he said next shook his parents to the bone.
"The angels sang to me when I was there, and Jesus held me in his lap so I wouldn't be scared."
Daddy asked: "Did you go to heaven?"; ans: "Yeah ! ; when you were in that little room praying, and mommy was in the hall talking on the phone." Daddy asked:" How did you know where I was?"; ans: " I saw you when I went up."

Now the saints on horses part came one time after he and his mommy finished watching some kind of cartoon that he likes, and the good guys won the sword fight, and the 4 year old jumps up and pumps his muscles, and mommy laughs at him and says, well they won't have swords in heaven, to which he replied
"They do to have swords, cause all the men in heaven will come with Jesus on white horses and they have swords.

yellowtail3 · « **Reply #52 on:** July 26, 2011, 06:26:56 PM »

Quote from: FourBee on July 26, 2011, 06:17:43 PM

Quote
Even a 4 year old knows that all the saints will follow him on white horses, all of them with swords to do battle.
I said "A 4 year old", not all 4 year olds. ....

That's a good story, Four Bee, and one I like to hear - thanks!

I had that appendix thing a few years ago... though I had a backache, waited too long (high pain tolerance) and then was there for two weeks. I hated the NG tube.

ironglow · « **Reply #53 on:** July 27, 2011, 01:44:48 AM »

From Yellow;
"I had that appendix thing a few years ago... though I had a backache, waited too long (high pain tolerance) and then was there for two weeks. I hated the NG tube".
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Now, why would someone put a National Guard tube in your nose and down your throat ?

Just teasing..but I am illustrating the continued "initials only" or acronym way of expressing oneself. I am not accusing you of using superfluous acronyms, but some do that very often and I really don't mind, except they should not expect the rest of us to sit, pondering and puzzling what a certain acronym means. When one comes up with NWO, KSM, zio-this or neo-that, etc..etc....these may mean something to someone enmesched in conspiracy theories, but mean nothing to others.. So, what's the result..well myself and I am sure others, tend to pass over the message..rather than to spend time play a guessing game.

I had thought years ago how puzzling a simple conversation between two GIs could really baffle a civilian who is not into "GI jargon".. Check this out...one GI to another;
***************************************
" The NCO (PLT SGT) came to me this at 800 hours and told me that the NCOIC said I had to report to the OR.. because the top kick said the XO had received G2 from the CO that my request for OJT had been turned down. So about 1800 hours I switched from my BDUs into class A's and reported to the battery HQ. I got to the OR late, so I didn't meet with top or the "old man" didn't even find a SSGT there. The XO was with the guards ..he being the OD and busy selectin a super-numerary..only one in the OR was the CQ. Normally I would have to serve as CQ at times..but I don't pull KP, GD or CQ..because with my MOS...I'm ED..and I'm only an E-4!
I do regret that my request for OJT on TDY was turned down ..simply because I could use the per deium. So I guess that delays my NCO school, to say nothing about OCS. Guess I can give up on being either a Lt or a WO..even JG, not to mention a CWO..
****************************************************

Now that's how specialized jargon sounds to those not involved.

Veterans will understand most or all of what I said (allowing for some obsolescence), but non-vets may be a bit puzzled. So it is with any specialized course of study or occupation, so lets drop the acronyms..if you want to be read.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #54 on:** July 27, 2011, 02:49:02 AM »

I wonder how you get a job as a torturer? If I were lets to use my own whiles I would love to get up every morning and turn the screws on these fellers.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #55 on:** July 27, 2011, 04:25:09 AM »

Quote from: TM7 on July 27, 2011, 02:11:15 AM

Quote from: Casull on July 26, 2011, 08:46:15 AM
Quote
too much induced hypoxia can result in organ/brain permanent damage....that is a definition of torture.

According to who? BTW, what is the definition? Is it too much induced hypoxia? Is it anything that results in organ/brain permanent damage? Also, who is KSM? Really, all your acronyms sometimes confuse me. Please tell us WHO says that what you wrote is the definition of torture.
.
According to IG....he said it in Post# 31 and he's an expert in torture:

"Yellow;
I can see you have no experience at interrogation..but first a couple points
1) The Navy commander suffered REAL torture..that is not debatable..broken bones, crushed fingers, bones re-broken lacerated scrotum, hamburger butt and all."
If you read the Geneva Accords and other mil rules they beat around the bush on what torture is...ergo the upshot is it results in physical damage, organ failure, mental damage, etc....IG eloquently points out so its not a mystery. This should be clear to people with an IQ over 72 as IG says....this is not a mystery or deep enigma of the universe, or aconfusing topic....except by those who choose to muddy it up. Apparently, there are two types of people in the world....those that see torture as some big gray muddy area riddled with options, justifications, ifs and buts....and others that simply just see torture for what it is....no big mystery of God.

FYI.....KSM...is Kalid Sheik Mohmammed....remember him...?? He's the guy that was deemed the mastermind planner of your 911 attack that got waterboarded 190 times or so.....how could you forget him?

..TM7
.

Sounds like he was washed away , not forgotten

yellowtail3 · « **Reply #56 on:** July 27, 2011, 04:45:51 AM »

Quote from: ironglow on July 25, 2011, 04:08:52 PM

Yellow; I can see you have no experience at interrogation..but first a couple points

You never did come back & reveal your interrogation experience, Ironglow... will you?

FourBee · « **Reply #57 on:** July 27, 2011, 05:05:11 AM »

Quote

"~ ~ I don't consider Air Force personnel as "weenies"..

My tour in VietNam put me in elbow contact with Army, Marine, Vietnamese Army/AirForce, and U.S. Airforce, both Brass and Stripes. It matters not which uniform you wear that makes a weenie; it's what sets between the collar bones.
I've seen their faces (US Marine Brass included), those who talked the talk, but when it came to walking the walk, they blinked. War is tough, and no one is exempt from fear. Different fears for different folks. What breaks one may be a piece of cake for another. I was U.S. AirForce with the 3rd Marine Division in DaNang.

ironglow · « **Reply #58 on:** July 27, 2011, 05:33:02 AM »

Quote from: yellowtail3 on July 27, 2011, 04:45:51 AM

Quote from: ironglow on July 25, 2011, 04:08:52 PM
Yellow; I can see you have no experience at interrogation..but first a couple points

You never did come back & reveal your interrogation experience, Ironglow... will you?

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Yellow;
Just chalk it to general knowledge and common sense, just understand that it works.
I carried a security clearance then and I'm glad I did..so I'm not telling you a darn thing.
No sense stirring in an old, rusty kettle..I'll just let sleeping dogs lie...

yellowtail3 · « **Reply #59 on:** July 27, 2011, 05:44:46 AM »

Quote from: ironglow on July 27, 2011, 05:33:02 AM

Just chalk it to general knowledge and common sense, just understand that it works.
I carried a security clearance then and I'm glad I did..so I'm not telling you a darn thing.
No sense stirring in an old, rusty kettle..I'll just let sleeping dogs lie...

Ah... a security clearance - that tells all we need to know, right there! You can't reveal how you know what I don't know , due to your... security clearance.

I'm so impressed, I just might burst...