Gitmo, Abu Gharib and the torture question..

[powderman]

FOURBEE. Good post Sir and thank you for your service. 
yellow. I'm shocked. You mean theres actually something you don't know?? POWDERMAN. 

[BUGEYE]

retracted

[ironglow]

     Just chalk it to general knowledge and common sense, just understand that it works. 
    I carried a security clearance then and I'm glad I did..so I'm not telling you a darn thing.
    No sense stirring in an old, rusty kettle..I'll just let sleeping dogs lie...

Ah... a security clearance - that tells all we need to know, right there! You can't reveal how you know what I don't know , due to your... security clearance.

I'm so impressed, I just might burst...

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  Yellow, if you burst..it will be from BS..

[FourBee]

ironglow ~: I carried a security clearance

Ah; yes.  The good ole security clearance we had.  Mine was CRYPTO, the mysterious secrets of secrets.  You couldn't leave Nam w/o going thru debriefing.  Forget everything buy your name and serial#.

[SHOOTALL]

Hum clerances , I wasn't in the military but got cleared to go in some places on base. Got to go into labs etc in manf. facelities that made / tested stuff for the military. Like most my services were needed there. Like most I was allowed to go because my record was clear. I worry more about those who cannot be cleared than those who can.

[yellowtail3]

off topic, I've heard that you should know your enemy...

Why, Bugeye... what an ugly thing to say. I abhor  ugliness. Does this mean we’re not friends anymore? You know, Bugeye, if I  thought you weren’t my friend... I just don’t think I could bear it.

...so I took yellow and tm off of ignore this morning.

There... now we can be friends!
===================================
I don't think I'd like to be water-boarded. In fact... I think such an experience might lead me to violence against those who did it to me, as soon as they no longer had the power of the state behind them.

[SHOOTALL]

Let get back to the OP , If you could save the life of your child by water boarding someone involved with their abduction would you ? If you don't you know the child will most likely die.
You don't know if you will get the truth but its the best shot you have .
 
So what do you do , yes water board or no . no other ansewer will do. yes or no ?

[yellowtail3]

So what do you do , yes water board or no . no other ansewer will do. yes or no ?

That's a cheap trick to elicit the answers you'd like, but I'll bite.

If you could save the life of your child by water boarding someone involved with their abduction would you ? If you don't you know the child will most likely die. You don't know if you will get the truth but its the best shot you have .

If it were my girls? I'd kneecap them if I thought that would work. And I'd probably kill them once hope was lost - so keep me out of that kind of situation. And yes, I'd water-board them - but I would not try fool myself or anyone else by saying it wasn't torture.

[Shu]

With out all the political grand standing and name calling and with all due respect to Mr McCain and every other POW. What happened at Gitmo and Abu Gharib is not in my definition of torture. Yes there was a death and yes waterbaording does cuase hypoxia. Depending upon where you are in the world would define torture. Viet Nam could be fileting, beatings etc where Latin America it was rape with a coke bottle by secret security forces. Idi Amin was known to beat them to death and eat parts. Large piles of teeth were found in his prison. Torture is known to produce some truth but after a certain point the prisoner will say anything they think you want to hear to get the pain to stop. Unfortunately in a war type environment information is needed very fast. The type of torture needed has to be very harsh and will result in death either from the torture or a mercy killing. Long term psychological is more for conditioning or confirming all ready known information. In Latin America as previously mentioned that type of torture was basically a warning this can happen to you or a family memeber anytime you step out of line. The coke bottle was used becuase it is an everyday reminder.
Unfortunately when America goes to war it is expected to take the high road while enemies can do anything they want. (I'd knock a guy out for filming anything with his cell phone if I was there).
Unfortunately there are a few things that do need to be kept secret. That is part of the nature of war. Sources of information are no good if everyone knows about them or how information was obtained.
If you are asking if I would use any form of torture to save a family member of mine. Yes I would with out hesitation. I can gauruntee I will get the truth quickly.

[SHOOTALL]

So what do you do , yes water board or no . no other ansewer will do. yes or no ?

That's a cheap trick to elicit the answers you'd like, but I'll bite.

If you could save the life of your child by water boarding someone involved with their abduction would you ? If you don't you know the child will most likely die. You don't know if you will get the truth but its the best shot you have .

If it were my girls? I'd kneecap them if I thought that would work. And I'd probably kill them once hope was lost - so keep me out of that kind of situation. And yes, I'd water-board them - but I wouldn't try fool myself or anyone else by saying it wasn't torture.

Nothing to bite I feel the same way . When we send a soilder in harms way its an Americans child , one of us if you will and I feel we owe both the soilder and parent no less than we would do for our own child.
Yes they chose to be a soilder and knew the risk , but they did so  we would not be in the middle of the fight , the other guys home land would.

[powderman]

SHOOTALL, SHU, Good posts. Answer, YES, whatever it took. POWDERMAN. 

[BBF]

My own hesitation with torture is : Are you sure this person has the info or is he telling the truth if he/she says I don't have any.
 
So you have a choice, Believe the person or you start torture. At what point do you believe the victim that he/she doesn't know?

[yellowtail3]

My own hesitation with torture is : Are you sure this person has the info or is he telling the truth if he/she says I don't have any.
So you have a choice, Believe the person or you start torture. At what point do you believe the victim that he/she doesn't know?

Ah... sounds like a man who might have more conscience than ideology.

[billy_56081]

Truth or not at some point I would just do it to them for the fun of it.

[ironglow]

  Call it torture or not..doesn't matter..just semantics..    The fact is, Shootall got it right..loyalty should be universal among the troops...  And it behooves those who send them in harm's way to consider them as their own sons and daughters..
 
   Shootall had it right when he said;
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
 
       " Nothing to bite I feel the same way . When we send a soilder in harms way its an Americans child , one of us if you will and I feel we owe both the soilder and parent no less than we would do for our own child.
Yes they chose to be a soilder and knew the risk , but they did so  we would not be in the middle of the fight , the other guys home land would. "
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     BTW:
   I reject the old, lame statement we hear from some cretans who says in effect.." we should not be alarmed or grieve greatly when one of our military gets killed or wounded, after all..they volunteered for the job".
   Now, that is a real bonehead conclusion..  Firemen, police and some hospital workers as well as those who work high above ground and those who work far below ground, volunteer for their job also..are their lives worth less than others ?  DUH !
  Are we only to respect the one who carefully enfolds his/her life in a comfy, cushioned cocoon ?

[yellowtail3]

I reject the old, lame statement we hear from some cretans who says in effect.." we should not be alarmed or grieve greatly when one of our military gets killed or wounded, after all..they volunteered for the job".

Well, there's an easy thing to reject. I'd not heard that talk around here; have you?

Now, that is a real bonehead conclusion.. 

It is, I supposed, though I've yet to hear anyone promote that conclusion.

[ironglow]

I reject the old, lame statement we hear from some cretans who says in effect.." we should not be alarmed or grieve greatly when one of our military gets killed or wounded, after all..they volunteered for the job".

Well, there's an easy thing to reject. I'd not heard that talk around here; have you?

Now, that is a real bonehead conclusion.. 

It is, I supposed, though I've yet to hear anyone promote that conclusion.

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  Yellow, you just haven't been here long enough..back before the 'surge' in Iraq it was batted around a couple times..
  Used to even hear it upon occasioin from the loonie left fringe ..

[yellowtail3]

  Used to even hear it upon occasioin from the loonie left fringe ..

Here?

[BUGEYE]

IG, I've heard it.  the left hates the military and old people who have no more to contribute to the state.

[SHOOTALL]

  Used to even hear it upon occasioin from the loonie left fringe ..

Here?

In case ya'll forgot the president offered that military personal should pay their own insurance SINCE THEY VOLUNTEER FOR THE JOB. Now he is commander and chief wonder if when he gets defeated at the next election will he pay his own ?

[gypsyman]

The heck with waterboarding. Use the transformer and alligator clips. Even if you don't get any information, if you hook up the alligator clips in the right area's, they'll never breed again!!gypsyman

[yellowtail3]

In case ya'll forgot the president offered that military personal should pay their own insurance SINCE THEY VOLUNTEER FOR THE JOB. Now he is commander and chief wonder if when he gets defeated at the next election will he pay his own ?

I don't think I know the details - what exactly did the president 'offer'? And that bit in ALL CAPS - "SINCE THEY VOLUNTEER FOR THE JOB - is that something the president said? What was the deal, exactly? What did the president actually say? 

[powderman]

In case ya'll forgot the president offered that military personal should pay their own insurance SINCE THEY VOLUNTEER FOR THE JOB. Now he is commander and chief wonder if when he gets defeated at the next election will he pay his own ?
 
 
SHOOTALL. Yes he did. We do have an all volunteer army and some go in because it's a job, a way to make a living, but for many others it's a way to serve the country that they love, and protect others from the evils of this world in spite of the hate America crowd. If I'm not mistaken obummer also wanted our wounded to pay for all extended care and for care not covered by insurance. Yep, that illegal kenyan is  a real dandy. The dems should be proud. POWDERMAN. 

[yellowtail3]

If I'm not mistaken obummer also wanted our wounded to pay for all extended care and for care not covered by insurance. Yep, that illegal kenyan is  a real dandy. The dems should be proud. POWDERMAN.

You're mistaken (again)

[SHOOTALL]

In case ya'll forgot the president offered that military personal should pay their own insurance SINCE THEY VOLUNTEER FOR THE JOB. Now he is commander and chief wonder if when he gets defeated at the next election will he pay his own ?

I don't think I know the details - what exactly did the president 'offer'? And that bit in ALL CAPS - "SINCE THEY VOLUNTEER FOR THE JOB - is that something the president said? What was the deal, exactly? What did the president actually say?

Yes  it was when the President was selling the health care plan . I don't remember the interview but it showed his lack of understanding about such things IMHO.

[yellowtail3]

Yes  it was when the President was selling the health care plan . I don't remember the interview but it showed his lack of understanding about such things IMHO.

seems dubious
http://www.factcheck.org/2009/05/would-obama-have-soldiers-pay-for-own-war-injuries/

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/did_obama_accuse_veterans_of_selfishness_and.html

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/veteranshealth.asp

[BBF]

IG, I've heard it.  the left hates the ............................................... old people who have no more to contribute to the state.

Unless it is one of their own. Then his/hers "wisdom" becomes valuable.

[BUGEYE]

scatter, why did you remove part of the quote?

[Casull]

...it is the Repubs that want to reform-dismantle medicare and social security and not raise taxes on elites...and let elders fend for themselves for medical care..

 
That's funny, considering that the only ones who've ever cut, taxed or threatened to cut off benefits under those programs were democraps.

[SHOOTALL]

Yes  it was when the President was selling the health care plan . I don't remember the interview but it showed his lack of understanding about such things IMHO.

seems dubious
http://www.factcheck.org/2009/05/would-obama-have-soldiers-pay-for-own-war-injuries/

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/did_obama_accuse_veterans_of_selfishness_and.html

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/veteranshealth.asp

Yellow , when I check snoops it seems Obama can't understand the backlash to his saying that soilders should foot the bill for their long term care for battle injury. So it would seem he said it to cause the backlash . So dubious in what way ?