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Offline crustylicious

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Debt Ceiling for Dummies
« on: July 24, 2011, 07:17:59 PM »
Debt Ceiling for Dummies: Why Compromise Is so Necessary       
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jonathanmiller/debt-ceiling-for-dummies-_b_907847.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000003
As we approach August 2, the deadline for Congress to lift the debt ceiling before the nation begins to default on its credit, there's still considerable public confusion about what it all means.
While nearly every economic expert declares that default would be a disaster, and a bipartisan consensus of politicians not aligned with the Tea Party agree, the country is still sharply divided.  The most recent Pew Research Center poll found that only 40 percent of the public felt it was "essential" to raise the debt limit, while 39 percent of Americans (including 53% of Republicans) felt that we could go past the August 2 deadline without major economic problems.
Why the disconnect?
Part can be attributed to the continuing and growing distrust of Washington politicians, particularly by those disaffected on the far right.
Much is also due to the esoteric, bewildering, and sometimes coma-inducing nature of the financial jargon and labyrinthine subject matter associated with the debt ceiling debate.
As a Democrat and a former state Treasurer and CFO, I'm probably not the right guy to convince the partisan-blinder-wearing Ceiling Deniers.
But for the rest of us, I offer the following straightforward, plain-English summary to hopefully help better explain the real-life impact of American credit default:
What is the debt ceiling?
When many Americans hear the term "debt ceiling," they compare it to the limit placed on their credit cards.  Using this analogy, it would seem foolish to provide a higher limit to a shopaholic (Congress) that is already abusing its credit.  Shouldn't we instead cut up their credit cards?
Unfortunately, it's not that simple.  And it's probably more accurate to compare credit default with America burning up its credit card bills.
The debt ceiling is a statutory cap on the amount of debt the federal government has incurred. The federal debt is, in essence, the money the country has borrowed -- by issuing bonds and Treasury bills -- to operate all of its essential functions. Any new debt we must incur today is necessary to pay for programs we funded in the past.   Lifting the debt ceiling, therefore, would not restrict future government spending -- instead, it would result in a failure to honor the debts we've already incurred through our prior spending.
That's simply irresponsible financial behavior -- for an individual, or for a nation. And that's why lifting the debt ceiling -- while often a political talking point -- has never been seriously contested: since 1980 alone, the debt ceiling has been raised 39 times, in Democratic and Republican administrations.
So what happens if we fail to lift the debt ceiling?
If the U.S. fails to lift the debt ceiling on August 2, the Treasury Department will begin on August 3 to determine which government payments will be prioritized to be made under the debt cap. In all likelihood, despite threats to the contrary, Social Security checks, Medicare payments, and essential government services -- including our national defense -- will be prioritized.
But federal spending in other categories could be dramatically downsized, with some government departments potentially shuttered. Looking at the 1995-6 federal government shutdown for examples, we could see a cessation of disease surveillance and toxic waste cleanup, closure of national museums and parks, cancellation of recruiting and training law enforcement officials, stoppage of visa and passport application processing (impairing the tourist and airline industries), and a significant curtailment of services to our veterans, ranging from finance and travel, to health and welfare.
Of course, we would have to expect such a scenario to be temporary. At some point, public outrage would force Congress to lift the debt ceiling in order to continue these critical, popular services.
But even in such a scenario, there would be lasting permanent damage, emerging primarily from the extreme likelihood that failure to lift the debt ceiling would result in the first credit downgrade in American history.
What's a credit downgrade, and what's so bad about it?
Since the first credit rating agencies were established, U.S. Treasuries have always enjoyed a triple A rating -- the very highest -- indicating to financial markets that they are among the safest investment instruments in the world.  Standard & Poor's, one of the leading credit rating agencies, has recently warned, however, that a failure to lift the debt ceiling would likely result in its downgrading U.S. credit to the AA level.
Thanks to those awful free credit report commercials, most Americans understand that having a low credit rating is a bad thing.  For individuals, low credit scores could result in the denial of credit for the purchase of homes, cars, and other critical items.
For the nation, the impact would be far worse, and much longer lasting.  Initially, a national credit downgrade would signal to investors that U.S. Treasuries are a riskier proposition. This means that in order for the nation to borrow funds to pay for essential services, Treasury would have to provide investors with a higher interest rate to compensate for the additional risk they would be taking.
Once those interest rates begin to climb, investors will lose further confidence in the United States. A vicious circle spins wildly, resulting in even higher interest rate hikes. Accordingly, the U.S. would have to spend billions upon billions more dollars on interest payments, further ballooning the national debt, requiring even more drastic spending cuts and/or tax increases.
What an irony: the far right's refusal to agree to a debt ceiling increase -- in the name of fiscal conservatism -- would dramatically worsen our debt problems and make it much, much more difficult for the nation to address them.
It gets worse.  Many individual states -- particularly those that rely on federal largesse and employment -- would experience their own credit rating downgrades. State coffers already stretched by reduced revenues in the Great Recession therefore would be depleted further by higher interest payments, necessitating likely state tax hikes and/or cuts in education, health care and law enforcement.
Finally, these interest rate hikes would not be limited to our governments' borrowing. They would immediately translate to higher interest rates on our credit cards and mortgages, directly reducing the incomes of hard-working Americans.
And higher interest rates are only the quantifiable impact of a credit rating downgrade. Ultimately, the United States' position as the world's economic leader would be seriously undermined.
Why would credit default threaten our economic leadership, and why is that important?
America's economic standing in the world would certainly suffer if it defaulted on its obligation to repay its debts to other countries.  Not only would this be the first time the U.S. had been in default: No nation has ever voluntarily defaulted on its credit obligations in the world's history. As European leaders desperately attempt to protect themselves from the ramifications of a potential Greek bankruptcy, they must shake their heads in bewilderment to watch America drive towards to brink of default for no reason other than hyper-partisan brinkmanship.  How could anyone ever again trust America's full faith and credit assurances?
Meanwhile, in the case of a credit downgrade, all of the global institutions that by policy or by statute invest only in the safest triple-A rated bonds -- such as many pension funds and investment trusts -- would be forced to dump their U.S. holdings. This would necessarily shift financial transactions away from U.S. institutions, and ultimately could result in the dollar losing its status as the world's reserve currency, a major blow to American global financial leadership.
What can I do?
Don't ever underestimate the power of the citizenry in our democracy.  We are at the brink of credit default because the loudest voices that our elected representatives are hearing come from the extremes of our political system. If the rest of us make ourselves heard -- and polls show that a clear majority of Americans support bi-partisan compromise -- Congress will listen.
So call, write, and email your Congressmen.  Educate your neighbors and encourage them to join in the advocacy.  And if you are looking to join a grassroots effort aimed at restoring bipartisanship and common sense in Washington, join us at No Labels, a new national movement of Democrats, Republican, and Independents, all of whom agree that we must put aside our labels on occasion to work in the country's best interests. Click here to stand with No Labels in demanding a bipartisan solution to the debt crisis.
But whatever you do, act today.  Time is running out, and should the worst case scenario occur, the genie cannot be placed back in the bottle.  It is up to each of us to insist that our leaders stand back from the brink, and do what is right for the nation.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and the wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
"The speaking in perpetual hyperbole is comely in nothing but love" Francis Bacon, Sr.
Voting is like driving a car- choose (D) to go forward- choose (R) to go backwards!
When all think alike, no one thinks very much. Albert Einstein

Offline mirage1988

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Re: Debt Ceiling for Dummies
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2011, 07:25:22 PM »
No point in reading past huffingtonpost.com crusty.

Offline gypsyman

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Re: Debt Ceiling for Dummies
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2011, 07:45:25 PM »
Maybe Obama ought to read and join this organization. He's the one who put us in this situation. When you get him convinced, come talk to me. gypsyman
We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

Offline magooch

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Re: Debt Ceiling for Dummies
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2011, 04:57:45 AM »
So we go on living in a dreamworld where you can forever spend 30 % more than you bring in and believe that that will have no serious repercussions?
Swingem

Offline BUGEYE

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Re: Debt Ceiling for Dummies
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2011, 05:39:50 AM »
it's a fact that we cannot keep borrowing money. sooner or later we'll have to default.
let's bite the bullet and do it now before the debt gets any larger.  my wife who is a mere school bookkeeper could eliminate the waste and balance the budget.
anyone who advocates more debt is a thief, stealing from honest american workers.
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Debt Ceiling for Dummies
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2011, 07:52:21 AM »
Let's see now....if I recall correctly the debt ceiling was raised 7 times under Bush Jr in 8 years, and I believe 17 times under Reagan.  Geee, I'm starting to think perpetual war cost alot of money... ???
 
 
..TM7
Look  we can argue who's fault it is and how much it is raised under each President. and How Tip O'Neil lied to Reagan and was supose to cut spending 3 dollars for every one tax dollar and they spent 3 dollrs more to every tax dollar.
But here is the problem we have now.  What we need ot do is figure out how we can deal with the problem now.
When we borrow money, the law states we need to pay the interest first, then obligations (Items the government is supose to do under the constitution) then the intitlements, and then the descressionary spending.
What we are looking at is about 10 to 12% of our income is going to debt service and raising the debt is only going to add more payments needing us to borrow more to keep up the current level of spending.
Obama is lying and saying we need to raise the limits so we do not default.  By Law we can not default on the debt.  We can default on the other payments but not on the debt service.  The massive give away programs to buy votes have to end.  The masive size and over lap of the government needs to be redone to provide an enviroment where business can thrive and is not bogged down in rules and regulations that are not done by law makers.  That cost Millions of jobs in red tape.  You know shovel ready killing rules and regulations.
You can not run your house hold if you make X and spend 3X and continue to open new credit cards to pay for the 2X your salary you are spending over what you take in.  At some point everything will collapse.  You can not keep going to your boss and demand raises before you are not worth what youa re paying.  With this Government demanding more Taxes less income will be there and more will need to be borrowed.  We need ot have a plan to pay down the debt, lower taxes to get people working, and live up to the obligations we have with Social Security, at the same time changing the system so uit does not take money out of the economy but social security helps to grow our economy and create wealth rather than steal it.
If this were a Republican or a Democrat rather than the Communist / Progressive  that is in office I would be arguing the same thing.  We know socialism does not work.  We have seen through out history that massive governments that loose track of the idea they are there to serve the poeple rather than the people are there to serve them lead to the end of empires and countries.
The English and their excessive taxes on the Americans is what sparked the events leading to the revolution.  The Power battles in the Roman Senate and the Senators all robbihng the central treasury along with the coruption of the power grabs is what lead to the end of the Roman Empire.  The Excessive spending of the French Monarchy lead to the end of the French Kings and the French Empire.
Looking at the end of them I see similar problems with our country.  The Government is in a Cubical Kingdom mode and the more cubes you have the more power you have.  The power is used to give away favors andf money.  The Government has to have the best, equipment, retiremnt and pay. and to do this they are taxing the golden goose (the American private industry) to the point that the eggs are no longer what they government wants but now wants roast goose.
If anyone wanted to break the system. so far we have that where people are being pitted against each other in a government run gladiator battle of those that create jobs and wealth and those that suck up jobs and destroy wealth.

Offline gr8ful

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Re: Debt Ceiling for Dummies
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2011, 07:59:28 AM »
I don't care who got us into this mess, it is time to come up with a plan to get out of it.  The first step is to stop spending.  If it means some of the free loaders have to back up off the Govt. teat then so be it.

Offline BBF

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Re: Debt Ceiling for Dummies
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2011, 09:24:32 AM »
You could start with bringing the Armed Forces back and stop giving away borrowed money to other nations. Refuse business licenses to Co. that manufacture overseas.
What is the point of Life if you can't have fun.

Offline gr8ful

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Re: Debt Ceiling for Dummies
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2011, 11:49:22 AM »
cut off all welfare and social services to illegals, and disability checks to those with self imposed disabilities ex. drug addicts & alcoholics, cancel ALL "discretionary spending", and foriegn aid, and cancel UN funding.  Impose tariffs on any product manufactured in another country by US Companies,  Cancel NAFTA  and Pass a balanced Budget ammendment, It would be a good start.

Offline billy_56081

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Re: Debt Ceiling for Dummies
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2011, 04:26:56 PM »
Let's see now....if I recall correctly the debt ceiling was raised 7 times under Bush Jr in 8 years, and I believe 17 times under Reagan.  Geee, I'm starting to think perpetual war cost alot of money... ???
 
 
..TM7
Look  we can argue who's fault it is and how much it is raised under each President. and How Tip O'Neil lied to Reagan and was supose to cut spending 3 dollars for every one tax dollar and they spent 3 dollrs more to every tax dollar.
But here is the problem we have now.  What we need ot do is figure out how we can deal with the problem now.
When we borrow money, the law states we need to pay the interest first, then obligations (Items the government is supose to do under the constitution) then the intitlements, and then the descressionary spending.
What we are looking at is about 10 to 12% of our income is going to debt service and raising the debt is only going to add more payments needing us to borrow more to keep up the current level of spending.
Obama is lying and saying we need to raise the limits so we do not default.  By Law we can not default on the debt.  We can default on the other payments but not on the debt service.  The massive give away programs to buy votes have to end.  The masive size and over lap of the government needs to be redone to provide an enviroment where business can thrive and is not bogged down in rules and regulations that are not done by law makers.  That cost Millions of jobs in red tape.  You know shovel ready killing rules and regulations.
You can not run your house hold if you make X and spend 3X and continue to open new credit cards to pay for the 2X your salary you are spending over what you take in.  At some point everything will collapse.  You can not keep going to your boss and demand raises before you are not worth what youa re paying.  With this Government demanding more Taxes less income will be there and more will need to be borrowed.  We need ot have a plan to pay down the debt, lower taxes to get people working, and live up to the obligations we have with Social Security, at the same time changing the system so uit does not take money out of the economy but social security helps to grow our economy and create wealth rather than steal it.
If this were a Republican or a Democrat rather than the Communist / Progressive  that is in office I would be arguing the same thing.  We know socialism does not work.  We have seen through out history that massive governments that loose track of the idea they are there to serve the poeple rather than the people are there to serve them lead to the end of empires and countries.
The English and their excessive taxes on the Americans is what sparked the events leading to the revolution.  The Power battles in the Roman Senate and the Senators all robbihng the central treasury along with the coruption of the power grabs is what lead to the end of the Roman Empire.  The Excessive spending of the French Monarchy lead to the end of the French Kings and the French Empire.
Looking at the end of them I see similar problems with our country.  The Government is in a Cubical Kingdom mode and the more cubes you have the more power you have.  The power is used to give away favors andf money.  The Government has to have the best, equipment, retiremnt and pay. and to do this they are taxing the golden goose (the American private industry) to the point that the eggs are no longer what they government wants but now wants roast goose.
If anyone wanted to break the system. so far we have that where people are being pitted against each other in a government run gladiator battle of those that create jobs and wealth and those that suck up jobs and destroy wealth.
.
 
It's important to know who is responsible and hold them accountable, or hang them. Its important to know who is benefitting from this malaise and hold them accountable. Its important to know where the biggest expenditures and waste is and audit and stop it. Its important to do alot of things for we-the-people and less for we-the-TPTB
 
 
..TM7
.

I could care less about water under the bridge, I want it fixed!
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline CannonKrazy

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Re: Debt Ceiling for Dummies
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2011, 05:04:14 PM »
I could care less about water under the bridge, I want it fixed!
 
Exactly!!!! To late to point fingers now. The spending is out of control and has to stop. There aint nothing hard to understand about that but the government sure can't seem to figure it out.

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Debt Ceiling for Dummies
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2011, 05:10:58 PM »
Many who just point fingers don't want it fixed anyway, if you notice they never praise those who are trying to fix it now, or even efforts to work toward fixing it.
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline billy_56081

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Re: Debt Ceiling for Dummies
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2011, 05:11:07 PM »
CannonKrazy that is why I started the Ron Paul, thread that MAtt was nice enough to sticky. I have been a true red republican voter, but I will not vote for several of the turds that are in contention now.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.