Tax cuts vs the economy

[mcwoodduck]

Ross Perot was right.  The giant sucking sound.  The free trade agreements implemented by both Dems and Rep in the 1990's caused our manufacturing to move overseas.  Free trade is fine between between like countries already industrialised, like Canada or some European countries, but with former 3rd world countries like China, Mexico, Central American Countries, or Asian countries, no.  Not without some type of parity, like child labor, minimum workweeks, EPA regulations, etc. 
 
If we got our industry back, people would have jobs providing at worse a lower middle class wage, with health care for themselves and their families. 
 
Dems and Reps allowed the Banking Industry to create substitute jobs for manufacturing in home building, thus the housing bubble.  Without any manufacturing to fall back on, we are in a mess. 
 
1) Abolish the free trade laws, bring our industry back.
2) All governments from Feds to local should switch to natural gas vehicles to cut 40% of imported oil, thus creating jobs here.
3) Switch other vehicles to diesel to increase mileage per gallon to further cut imported oil.
4) The 1% national sales tax would include ANY purchase by individuals, corporations, or investments, only groceries and medical expenses would not be taxed. 
 
Simple, it would take some guts by anyone to make these changes.
 
In the meantime, Feds should cut out EVERYTHING in the budget not absolute necessary.  Only social security, military pay, veterans benefits, and the bottom 10% of total population on welfare.  Anything else, vote on a tax specifically for funding it and it alone, can't borrow from it.  Feds have borrowed from social security for years, and have spent about 50% of gasoline tax money on other things than what they were set aside for.

We need to limit the power of non ellected branches of government like the EPA and the Energy Department.  Yes we all want clean air and water, but there is a problem when their budget comes from success and they write not laws but regulations and rules killing those industries.  The way their budget process is they have no need for any industry and the more they can kill with the rules and regulations the mor their budget grows.  The department of Energy was formed to get us away from forgien oil.  It has doen the opposite.  They should be doing things to increase domestic production of fuels.  Changing fuels is only going to add to taxpayer burdens in providing new fleets for the governments (federal, state and local) we need ot have ways to increase production - Drill nad pump from the ground and create now refineries to break that oil into petro chemicals we can use and cheaply distribute.  A national grade of fuel too would help rather than every state being able to set what they want as additives to the enviroment.  We need to stop the subsidies for alternative fuels.  It takes about a gallon of Diesel fuel to make a gallon of ethel alchol from corn.  But as there are subsidies for this it pays to waist fuel to make a less effective fuel.  At the same time taking feed corn off the market raising the price of it and raising the price of foods generated with that feed corn.

[jimster]

The answer is always spending...no matter what they tell you or how political things get, you simply can't spend more money than you take in, nobody can, government doing it is much worse because it's not their money, they have none, it's ours.  We have a spending problem, or you can call it a sickness...whatever.
First order of business is to cut spending, anything else after that is a different deal, always cut spending first.  Argue about taxes after you the first order of business is compete.
Since we know the dems and Obama does not want to cut spending at all...they must be forced to do so, that only amounts to laying them all off...and hey...it's their turn to be laid off...no big deal to me...shrink government until we start to heal.  Taxes only fuels their hunger to spend.
Math has no political party, it has no emotions, if you don't follow it you will crash, simple as that.  Our problem is simple, but government does not want to be laid off and they do not want to shrink....that is the real problem. It must be forced.
They are doing the same thing now they have done to pass all their spending..scare people into thinking we have to spend and tax. That's how they got all this spending passed, health care, stim packs, bail outs, all scare tactics. 
The sky won't fall if we let much of government die off...all that happens is we began recover.  Lets lay them off...show them how it feels to not be needed anymore.  They don't have anything to contribute to the people, therefore, we don't need as many on the job anymore. 
I

 

[DDZ]

Good posts MC and Jimster.
Not sure how we are going to change things when about half the people in this country are feeding at the public trough, and asking what government is going to give them, or do for them next next. Then you have many that think the rich should pay even more in taxes. They don't think the wealthy pay enough even though the top 10% pay 70% of the taxes, and 50% just about pay all the taxes. Our government has them thinking they are entitled to others money, just because they have more. Just read some of the posts here on GB.
Its really going to be tough to change things by voting when half the people are able to vote money out of the other half's pockets. To many people just don't give a damn how intrusive government is anymore, just so they get something that government stole from others. I really hate to think about what our government has become, because all it does is get my blood pressure up.

[billy_56081]

Jr. how about you answer me this? What will be the effect upon a product if the over head costs are higher by adding a tax.
 
Let's see if you can explain this mathematically.

[Gary G]

Some people just down right HATE the idea of others being able to keep more of what they earn. If higher taxes are the answer then lets start by asking for voluteers. Anyone here want to volunteer to pay higher taxes?

No need to volunteer.  They'll either finally collect some income taxes from trillionaire oil producers or collect more income taxes from the middle class.  Since you don't want oil producers to pay any income tax, you must be one of those who like giving money to the government.  There's lots of them lately, all with an (R) behind their name.

Economics lesson for Junior:
There are no trillionaire oil producers. They are all corporations (meaning owned by investors). In fact, if you have a retirement fund, you are probably one of the owners. These oil companies plow about 70% of their profits, when they have them, back into exploration and development. Now Junior, if you want them taxed more that means less money available for exploration and so less oil is found which means you want to pay more for gas at the pump.

So if it's good that big oil doesn't have to pay income taxes why should plumbers pay income taxes?  It couldn't be because plumbers don't give millions to Republicans to keep their 15% loophole, huh?  So you'd cut or eliminate grandpa's Social Security and Medicare so big oil can keep their 15% loophole?  Do you realize that you just said if a corporation's stock is included in someone's retirement fund, then the corporation shouldn't pay income taxes?  Who should pay income taxes?  The middle class?  Maybe that circa 50% of Americans, you right wingers like to mention, who pay no income taxes should pay, huh?  That's children, students, and people living in poverty, by the way.  How do you get income taxes out of a man who makes barely enough money to survive?  Squeeze it out like you'd squeeze blood from a turnip?  Put him in jail?  Establish poverty prisons?  We could build them beside the prisons we already have and maybe save a little money.

Junior, we have a Federal bureaucracy that consumes 40% of the nations wealth and you would have them consume more so long as it is fair to the poor. That is precisely why we have so many poor.

[mcwoodduck]

Jr. how about you answer me this? What will be the effect upon a product if the over head costs are higher by adding a tax.
 
Let's see if you can explain this mathematically.

I can.
Higher taxes = Higher costs.
Higher costs = Higher consumer prices.
Higher consumer prices = Less demand
Less demand = fewer goods sold
fewer goods sold = less tax dollars + fewer workers (still fewer tax dollars + unemployment and food stamps)
Fewer goods sold can also = looking to lower costs and that can include forgien manufacturing ( higher unemployment + fewer tax $ + added demands for government services), forgien based company (lots fewer tax dollars) alternative materials used (lower Quality in most cases) that result in lower demand.
There fore
Higher taxes = More unemployment  (higher demands on Government services) - tax revinues of goods and production not employed due to demand or moving production + inflation ( your $ is worth less goods).
 
Lower taxes + fewer regulations = healthy economy. (lower Government spending in ratio to over all GDP)  With a higher demand for labor an wages rise and usually greater than the inflation (your $ can buy more = Higher standard of living.

[Val]

It amazes me how liberals continue looking at the Country with tunnel vision. They impose business taxes, cost incurring regulations in the name of saving the planet, and pro labor regulations that cost businesses and corporations money and want the rich to pay higher taxes. The rich and small business owners do not keep their money under their mattresses. They invest their money which provides cash for business which results in growing business and creating jobs. The US currently has the highest corporate taxes in the world. The regulations that are imposed on business and the pro labor laws are driving our corporations off shore because they are competing in a world market.
The State of Kalifornistan is a prime example where the US economy is headed. For decades, increased taxes on individuals and business have been driving business out of the states for decades. Tax paying people have been fleeing the State in droves as their companies leave or to follow the job market. Lower paying jobs are created as the higher paying jobs leave the State. When I had to work for a living in the Aerospace business, there were hundreds of thousands of high paying jobs that have left the State. Retirees are leaving the State because they need to have lower taxes. The State is just plain running out of people to pay for all the welfare that the "progressives" have passed. Illegal aliens and welfare recipients are flooding the State for welfare checks. Kalifornistan has 18% of the US population and 30% of the US welfare recipients. The liberals just can't understand what their doing to Kalifornistan and the Country.

[BUGEYE]

I don't think liberals are capable of learning and they sure don't look at history.

[billy_56081]

Why does Jr not answer my simple question?

[BUGEYE]

Why does Jr not answer my simple question?

because he can't dispute mcwoodduck and val.

[Junior1942]

Jr. how about you answer me this? What will be the effect upon a product if the over head costs are higher by adding a tax.
 
Let's see if you can explain this mathematically.

If you're speaking of crude oil at the wellhead, the well owner paying income tax has no effect on the price of gasoline at the refinery.  The refinery buys crude oil  on the open market.  Companies like Exxon will make slightly less profit on domestic crude oil production so they will probably have to give executive bonuses of only $350,000,000 instead of $400,000,000. 
PS: if ol' John D. Rockefeller could smile, he's wearing a big one.  The fact that middle class Americans actually approve of his company paying no income taxes and them paying more income taxes would surely bring joy to his black dead heart.

[us920669]

Taxes on anything raises the cost of it, no way around it.  Money in the economy is like blood in your veins - if someone is draining a little out every day it's going to slow you down.  As far as 400 million dollar bonuses, that was no doubt a stock option deal.  The cost is to the people who buy the stock, and yes, investors should pay more attention to such things.

[Junior1942]

Just thought of something.  If we can give oil producers a 15% off-the-top tax break in the form of an "oil depletion allowance" why not give actors, entertainers and athletes a 15% off-the-top talent depletion allowance?  But I'd guess they'd have to donate millions of dollars to Republicans, so no talent depletion allowance I suppose.  Oh, well, it was worth a try.

[Casull]

 

The fact that middle class Americans actually approve of his company paying no income taxes and them paying more income taxes

 
junior, that is a lie (one you've repeated).  I've taken you to task for it before, but please show where middle class Americans are "paying more income taxes".   

[Junior1942]

The fact that middle class Americans actually approve of his company paying no income taxes and them paying more income taxes

 
junior, that is a lie (one you've repeated).  I've taken you to task for it before, but please show where middle class Americans are "paying more income taxes".   

Well, it sure looks to me like middle class guys like YOU would rather pay more income taxes than have Exxon pay ANY income taxes.  You certainly like it that Exxon pays zilch income taxes.  Explain why a tax loophole installed when oil was $2 a barrel is needed when oil is circa $100 a barrel, please.

[Gary G]

The fact that middle class Americans actually approve of his company paying no income taxes and them paying more income taxes

 
junior, that is a lie (one you've repeated).  I've taken you to task for it before, but please show where middle class Americans are "paying more income taxes".   

Well, it sure looks to me like middle class guys like YOU would rather pay more income taxes than have Exxon pay ANY income taxes.  You certainly like it that Exxon pays zilch income taxes.  Explain why a tax loophole installed when oil was $2 a barrel is needed when oil is circa $100 a barrel, please.

Exxon paid income tax of 29.8B in 2007
                                       36.5B in 2008
                                       15.1B in 2009
                                       21.5B in 2010
http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/financials/financials.asp?ticker=XOM:US

Junior, you just can't believe Obamu. He lies. He is a politician.

[powderman]

 why not give actors, entertainers and athletes a 15% off-the-top talent depletion allowance?
 
 
junior. HEH, if most modern actors lost 15% of their TALENT they would have nothing. 15% of zero is still zero. POWDERMAN. 

[Casull]

Well, it sure looks to me like middle class guys like YOU would rather pay more income taxes than have Exxon pay ANY income taxes.  You certainly like it that Exxon pays zilch income taxes.  Explain why a tax loophole installed when oil was $2 a barrel is needed when oil is circa $100 a barrel, please.

      No, YOU try to explain how middle class Americans are paying MORE income taxes under Republicans.  You've made that claim several times and have yet to offer ANY evidence.  BTW, I know you can't offer any evidence since it is NOT true.   

[us920669]

This is a case of forests and trees.  I'll bet the post got started because of this debt ceiling BS going on right now in Washington.  Obviously, I have no problem with Exxon paying more taxes, and I would shed nary a tear if this corporate jet deduction, whatever it is, was eliminated.  There are also all kinds of liberal special interest that get tax breaks, or even subsidies.  If the elimination of these was part of a comprehensive overhaul of the tax codes I might well support it, depending on the details.  But seeing the democrats take one or two down, dust them off and use them as a reason why they should win a big pecker contest with the Tea Party is just plain sickening.


We need to reduce the size of government to the point that we could have balanced budgets and meaningful tax cuts for everyone.  It would be tough but it could be done.  If the democrats prevail on this we will simply postpone the day of reckoning and continue our long march toward utter ruin.

[Junior1942]

The fact that middle class Americans actually approve of his company paying no income taxes and them paying more income taxes

 
junior, that is a lie (one you've repeated).  I've taken you to task for it before, but please show where middle class Americans are "paying more income taxes".   

Well, it sure looks to me like middle class guys like YOU would rather pay more income taxes than have Exxon pay ANY income taxes.  You certainly like it that Exxon pays zilch income taxes.  Explain why a tax loophole installed when oil was $2 a barrel is needed when oil is circa $100 a barrel, please.

Exxon paid income tax of 29.8B in 2007
                                       36.5B in 2008
                                       15.1B in 2009
                                       21.5B in 2010
http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/financials/financials.asp?ticker=XOM:US

Junior, you just can't believe Obamu. He lies. He is a politician.

No, you lie.  Rather, you don't tell the entire story.  They paid those income taxes to FOREIGN countries for profits they made in those countries.  They paid zero USA income taxes.
PS: Google "exxon usa income tax" for doubters on the Exxon need for a continued tax loophole.  In short, they pay ZILCH USA income taxes as I have repeatedly said.

[us920669]

I see TM was typing while I was. SS always was and always will be a ponzi scheme - Bernie Maddof on steroids.  When the demographics turn against it, as they have, it's toast.  That's why the bipartisan panel recommended the privatization plan almost 30 years ago.  Trying to get a conversation going on it was probably the best thing Bush ever did.  And Obama using SS as the thing he would welch on if the government doesn't get its credit limit raised is despicable.  That's why Big Gov loves the current plan - it lets them scare people.

[billy_56081]

Jr you are side stepping the question. The executive bonuses do not make me envious I am glad folks can work their way to the top. Your class warfare gibberish shows that even though you know the answer to my simple question you do not want the answer to be heard.

[Casull]

Ah Billy, it's useless.  junior won't answer mine either.  He can't really, or he wouldn't be able to keep posting the same male bovine manure.

[jimster]

No, you lie.  Rather, you don't tell the entire story.  They paid those income
taxes to FOREIGN countries for profits they made in those countries.  They paid
zero USA income taxes.
PS: Google "exxon usa income tax" for doubters on the
Exxon need for a continued tax loophole.  In short, they pay ZILCH USA income
taxes as I have repeatedly said.

The IRS has already reported what the oil companies paid...to THEM, which is the U.S.A. ...it was in most major news papers. They also pay local property taxes, state taxes, gasoline taxes and payroll taxes. Uncle sam also gets money in other ways including sales taxes and duties.  One thing you won't EVER hear in Washington was their U.S tax bill was higher than actual U.S. earnings.  If they make 9 cents on every dollar, they consider that a good quarter.  They also hold federal leases to federal land and pay millions for those leases...at the same time can't get a PERMIT TO DRILL.  They also paid out 15 billion to foreign countries because they charge them as well. Grand total in global taxes for the year? A whopping $78.6 billion.  Total income tax rate...about 47%..highest in three years.  If you want to blame anyone for oil companies drilling out of the country...blame your congress.
I say if people don't like the oil companies, quit using oil...and shut up.  It doesn't so any good to lie about things you hate...but you can stop using the product if you have a problem.  Maybe these people need to invest in some drilling equipment, put in for a permit, and try to drill it themselves...they would soon find out how much money you need to invest and not get a damn permit to drill. I doubt they would be selling oil any cheaper, and I doubt they would try to pay more taxes than other companies.  they would find out in a hurry making 8 or 9 cents on the dollar and having a bunch of ignorant people callling them the evil enemy gets old pretty fast.
If there is anyone who thinks they can drill for oil, not pay anything except rake in trillions, and all easy money...go for it.  Start out with a small rig...work your way up.  Lots of made up stuff on the internet as far as money stuff. Drill for it yourself and find out how it really is.
All "lefty" does is complain and covet other peoples money....that's getting old, and it sounds pathetic.  Lefties needs to get off their azzes and try something themselves and stop bitchin so much.
 
 

 
 

[Hooker]

If you're speaking of crude oil at the wellhead, the well owner paying income tax has no effect on the price of gasoline at the refinery.  The refinery buys crude oil  on the open market. 

You really have no clue what your talking about. You ought to run for office.

Pat

[jimster]

If you're speaking of crude oil at the wellhead, the well owner paying income tax has no effect on the price of gasoline at the refinery.  The refinery buys crude oil  on the open market. 

You really have no clue what your talking about. You ought to run for office.

Pat

I might add the highest office,  president of the United States, is now within reach of blathering idiots as well. 

[BUGEYE]

I discovered juniors mindset this afternoon.  I was reading a book and halfway watching fox news.
they brought on a liberal congressman "didn't catch his name" I knew he was a liberal because cavuto was yelling at him.  anyway, what got my attention was him railing about billionares owning all those cars and houses.  he said it was ridiculious to own that much.  so, junior is jealous of people who earn a lot of money. I'm sure junior would like rich people to give him some.

[billy_56081]

Ah Billy, it's useless.  junior won't answer mine either.  He can't really, or he wouldn't be able to keep posting the same male bovine manure.

He parrots the class warfare/envy that the liberal left uses to boost their lack of self esteem.

[Junior1942]

I discovered juniors mindset this afternoon.  I was reading a book and halfway watching fox news.
they brought on a liberal congressman "didn't catch his name" I knew he was a liberal because cavuto was yelling at him.  anyway, what got my attention was him railing about billionares owning all those cars and houses.  he said it was ridiculious to own that much.  so, junior is jealous of people who earn a lot of money. I'm sure junior would like rich people to give him some.

BS.

[Dixie Dude]

I work for a natural gas company.  There is a Federal tax at the wellhead, when they sell it to a cross country pipeline.  There is a tax when the cross country pipeline sells it to the distribution company.  Then there is a tax when the distribution company sells this to the end customer.  It is not income tax.  Income tax has write offs for drilling expense, charitable contributions, etc.  Income tax is only ONE tax of many.  Natural gas is taxed all down the line per mcf.  What about the liberal owned software companies like Google and Microsoft, who make like 200-300% profits, give millions to Obama.  They always jump on big oil.  What about big coal, big agribusiness companies (who gave to Obama for his support of ethynol production driving our food prices up)?  What about the biggest  manufacturing company in the world, GE, who gave to Obama and paid no income taxes?  Sure there are tax loopholes.  Dems want to close the Reps loopholes, Reps know it theirs are closed, they will have to close the Dems supported also.  Jr, needs to look at the reasons for the loopholes, who benefits, not just Republicans.  That is why a national sales tax would be more fair, and eliminate the complicated income tax system we have.  Republicans have pushed for a flat tax, but dems don't what it because their supporters benefit.  Flat would be fair all across the board.  Why can't jr. see this?