Tax cuts vs the economy

[DDZ]

Tm, Government has had years to run the SS program correctly.  What the SS program is now, is how government runs things. If they had intentions of making it right I think they would have done so by now.
 They turn every program they create into a big bureaucracy that needs more and more money to keep it afloat. Then they say we have to fix it, and end up never fixing anything, because government is incapable of fixing anything. Really the only thing they are good at is putting the country in debt, starting more programs, and making every bureaucratic program into a money sucking black hole. 

Who will do the auditing? Government themselves, the same corrupt bunch that run it into the ground? Who couldn't keep their corrupt hands off of it, because they saw it as more money to spend, in hope of keeping their useless jobs by buying votes. Having the government audit the SS program would be like asking the fox to watch the hen house. 
 In the past the Republicans have even said that government doesn't work, then they get elected and prove it. 

[mcwoodduck]

mcwoodduck...you missed the point again...SS is a good deal for folks...it works...its cheap and nothing else like it in the insurance world...it needs to be kept in repair and not raided or snuffed out by eltitist slobbering for the monies.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with the governmnet adminstering such a program as long as they are audited and run it correctly.
 
..TM7
 
TM7
.

We will just have to disagree.  SS is a bad program that destroys wealth, makes citizens slaves to past generations, and makes you a puppet to a political moron that is willing to cut off your payments to get what he wants politically.  If you think it is OK to steal the American dream from your kids and grandkids and are willing to have the next generation worse off than past generations and having the American standard of living decline due to over taxation.  Fewer people able to go to college because you think a government Ponzi scheeme is some how good and right.  The problem with a Ponzi scheeme is it takes more and more "investors at higher levels to feed it till it collapses and no one can be paid"  When we are borrowing 40% of what we spend as a nation some how we are going to run out of $ quickly.  Even if you take Socilaism to the next level and you were to confiscate 100% of the top 20% of the nations wealth you would run out of Money in 2 months.
Some how you have no problem taking from your friends, neighbors, kind and grandkids to get what you want or think you are somehow entitled to for being born.   

[us920669]

I'm sure most of us could care less about this Dickens/Rand business, but I know a bit about the era and it irks me to see so much disinformation.  The big fight was not over industrialization or "crummy jobs", it was the British class system vs. classic republicanism.  Classic republicans felt anyone should be able to go as far as their energy and ability could take them.  A rich kid back then was virtually guaranteed a life of ease, unless he decided to purchase a commission and become a colonel so he could wreck regiments and get people killed, secure in the knowledge that no captain would dare criticize him.  Meanwhile, the lad from humble origins faced strong headwinds no matter how good he was at whatever he tried to do.  From a historical perspective, the republicans had a winning hand, but the mistake they made was to believe in politics.  It worked for  a while, and the battle lines were drawn with the liberal/socialists standing up for the little guy.  Unfortunately, government is always controlled by the wealthy, and today the situation is completely reversed.  Hard work and industry is discouraged, membership in protected classes assures advancement and ambition is denounced as "cannibalism".  Rand, whatever her personal shortcomings, saw this early on, and it's time for the rest of us to wake up and smell the roses.

[sidewinder319]

The fact is 49% pay no taxes at all and many get refunds, income tax credits.  If they were putting all these nontaxpayers in prison we would have thousands of new prison jobs.

[mcwoodduck]

The fact is 49% pay no taxes at all and many get refunds, income tax credits.  If they were putting all these nontaxpayers in prison we would have thousands of new prison jobs.

Maybe we need to change the one man one vote rule.
Everyone gets a vote but you get extra votes for every 10K you pay in taxes.  Would stop the 51% that don't pay from stealing from the 49% that do pay.  there is a problem when 25% pay more than 75% ofthe total tax burden and are told they are not paying their fair share.

[yellowtail3]

Maybe we need to change the one man one vote rule.
Everyone gets a vote but you get extra votes for every 10K you pay in taxes. 

Sounds like a Golden Rule, sort of - him that has the gold, will make all the rules (even more so than now)

[mcwoodduck]

mcwoodduck...guess we'll have to disagree.  Main problem with governmnet is kicking out those that have perverted it for their own 'Randiesque' elite reasons; actually same people running the private sector.. Until that happens we will limp along and you can invest in the private sector all you desire. Still SS remains the best social safety and elder program ever devised in the civilized world, and citizens should demand that adminstration is proper, fair and honest. And there is not one thing wrong with citizens demanding such a program in an evermore crass 'Randiesque' world.
 
..TM7

As long as SS can be used as a weapon to allow one group to steal from another it is a bad program.  Whe 40% of the payments are borrowed to make the payments there is a problem.  When opperation cost (paying all the people working at SS) is more than 10% if the income taken in you are going to have a failure.  The Democrats have perverted a safty net system into problems.  Democrats are the ones that have made the changes and then screamed to make more changes to fix the things they broke!  Government is NOT the answer to the Problem most often Government is the CAUSE of those problems!  Until you under stand this, you can quote Dickens, Rand and Atlas shrugs all you want but laws of economics are laws like gravity is a law.  No gernment program can change either of those laws no matter how they package it or what illusions they make laws of Ecomonics are going to take over and prove it all an illusion.  Socialist economics is like Lance Burton magic.  Neither is real the problem is the magic that defies physics is amusing the Socialist economics is evil when it collapses.  Notice I said when and not if.

[Casull]

Sounds like a Golden Rule, sort of - him that has the gold, will make all the rules (even more so than now)

 
How about - them that pay, get the say.

[yellowtail3]

Sounds like a Golden Rule, sort of - him that has the gold, will make all the rules (even more so than now)

How about - them that pay, get the say.

We'll not hear you ever complain about lobbyists, will we?

[Casull]

We'll not hear you ever complain about lobbyists, will we?

 
That's a ridiculous statement.  Hardly worth responding to.  But in case you did not understand my prior post (which I'm sure you did), I was referring to those that pay the income taxes, not bribes.  Now, go troll around somewhere else.

[yellowtail3]

We'll not hear you ever complain about lobbyists, will we?

That's a ridiculous statement.  Hardly worth responding to.

That's uncharitable response to an mild point.

But in case you did not understand my prior post (which I'm sure you did), I was referring to those that pay the income taxes, not bribes. 

I understood that, and would write the same thing again. Democracy isn't supposed to be about, those with the money get more vote/say than those without.

[Casull]

I understood that, and would write the same thing again. Democracy isn't supposed to be about, those with the money get more vote/say than those without.

 
You do understand that the Founders did not create this country as a democracy, don't you? 

[Casull]

 

  Quote from: Casull on Today at 11:26:06 AM

  Quote

We'll not hear you ever complain about lobbyists, will we?

  That's a ridiculous statement.  Hardly worth responding to.

  That's uncharitable response to an mild point.

       Nothing charitable about the snide remark that preceeded it. 

[yellowtail3]

I understood that, and would write the same thing again. Democracy isn't supposed to be about, those with the money get more vote/say than those without.

You do understand that the Founders did not create this country as a democracy, don't you?

Yes, I  do understand. I used democracy to refer to popular-type gov't generally, rather than type, specifically. I'm all in favor safeguarding the rights of minorities, even if they're not white (and/or not Christian).

Is there something I'm missing that you'd like to explain, related to your recommendation that the wealthy get extra votes?

[Casull]

Is there something I'm missing that you'd like to explain, related to your recommendation that the wealthy get extra votes?

 
It has to do with the tyranny of the majority.  As in when you have more than half not paying income taxes, but determining what rates shall be applied to those that do pay them.

[mcwoodduck]

I understood that, and would write the same thing again. Democracy isn't supposed to be about, those with the money get more vote/say than those without.

You do understand that the Founders did not create this country as a democracy, don't you?

Yes, I  do understand. I used democracy to refer to popular-type gov't generally, rather than type, specifically. I'm all in favor safeguarding the rights of minorities, even if they're not white (and/or not Christian).

Is there something I'm missing that you'd like to explain, related to your recommendation that the wealthy get extra votes?

When the country first started you needed to own land to vote.  owning land and property you had a steak in the course of the country.  A renter did not have a say in how the land was used or sold as he did not own it.
The problem with a democracy is if more than half of  the people choose to do something even if it is wrong. 

[us920669]

No, just trying to be accommodating.  I think current trends indicate that, like it or not, people are going to have to start taking care of themselves, rather that waiting for someone else to do it for them. 


We devote a fair amount of time and treasure to helping the needy in our immediate area.  Not long ago the wife and I spent the night in a homeless shelter, voluntarily, a project run by our church.  The people we talked to were delighted to be out of the government run shelter, and this is not a poor county.  Neighbors helping neighbors is so much better than being sucked into the system.

[DDZ]

  Neighbors helping neighbors is so much better than being sucked into the system.

This is the way it used to work until government decided to take our money and try and do it for us. Of coarse they could care less about helping anyone. Its all about gaining power, and buying votes to stay in power.

How is it even remotely fair that half the people pay no income tax, and that same half votes for those that offer to give them the most goodies from the public treasury, that the other half pays for?

Our founding fathers gave us a Constitutional Republic that requires the three branches of government to support the Constitution. Since that doesn't happen anymore I guess all we have left is a democracy with a corrupt government.
The majority of government actions and expenditures anymore are for things that are not Constitutional. The fact is the federal government is prohibited from doing anything not specifically spelled out by the Constitution. (What part of the constitution does the SS program fall under?)
 When 30% of the population can't read, and around 85-90% have never read the Constitution, let alone understand it. Is it any wonder we got what we got. Its no accident that our government run schools don't teach children to read and have an understanding of our Constitution. If it was mandated to be taught in schools, as it should be. Many of our so called public servants in power now, wouldn't have a job. 

[BUGEYE]

us92, thanks for walking the walk, not just talking the talk.

[powderman]

US92. It's always better for the needy to look to Gods people than the State. Good for you. Better to hear, THANK YOU LORD, than thank you obummer. POWDERMAN. 

[us920669]

Thank you, others do more.  I found myself wondering why anyone has to do anything.  Our species has been able to find shelter for 40,000 years.  Now, we put a man on the moon but many people can not find shelter.  By the economics I read, most homelessness is caused by zoning laws, land use restrictions, etc.  In other words, the dead hand of government.


It's not an easy call.  People have certain standards for their communities - no shacks.  I just wonder if people realize, when they set their standards, that they may be depriving someone else of their shelter.


Many of the people I talked to are barely working or looking hard for any work.  It would help if we didn't have a president who can't get out of bed in the morning without killing a few thousand more jobs through drilling bans, workplace regulations and of course, TAXES!

[mcwoodduck]

Thank you, others do more.  I found myself wondering why anyone has to do anything.  Our species has been able to find shelter for 40,000 years.  Now, we put a man on the moon but many people can not find shelter.  By the economics I read, most homelessness is caused by zoning laws, land use restrictions, etc.  In other words, the dead hand of government.


It's not an easy call.  People have certain standards for their communities - no shacks.  I just wonder if people realize, when they set their standards, that they may be depriving someone else of their shelter.


Many of the people I talked to are barely working or looking hard for any work.  It would help if we didn't have a president who can't get out of bed in the morning without killing a few thousand more jobs through drilling bans, workplace regulations and of course, TAXES!

Once again Government is the Problem and not the solution.  If you were to give $1million to the local government for shelter.  Nothing would get done.  If you gave it to the Church they would buy or bulid a shelter and get people out of there and into their own place.  When ever Government got around to using your Million for what you gave it, they would build a system that keeps those people in the shelter.

[sidewinder319]

Maybe, but why do some churches have multimillion dollar buildings?? That's all tax exempt as well. Why they don't use this money to provide help for the poor makes us wonder why? The churches should not own mega properties should they??  The churches are no better than the government that do these things.

[Dixie Dude]

Sometimes a rich person wills land or a building for a church.  I don't have a problem with a churches building program IF they don't borrow the money.  Money is donated specifically for that program.  My church has a food bank for the poor, a building program, and supports missionaries overseas as well as within the US in the inner city, all without debt. 

[mcwoodduck]

Maybe, but why do some churches have multimillion dollar buildings?? That's all tax exempt as well. Why they don't use this money to provide help for the poor makes us wonder why? The churches should not own mega properties should they??  The churches are no better than the government that do these things.

See that is what is great about our country, you can do what you want with your money.  If the people of the church want a palace to worship in they can have it if they are willing to pay for it.  A problem arises when other people think they know best how you should spend your money or have it taken away and have the government spend it for you even if it is against your principals or agains the law. 

[dukkillr]

Maybe, but why do some churches have multimillion dollar buildings?? That's all tax exempt as well. Why they don't use this money to provide help for the poor makes us wonder why? The churches should not own mega properties should they??  The churches are no better than the government that do these things.

See that is what is great about our country, you can do what you want with your money.  If the people of the church want a palace to worship in they can have it if they are willing to pay for it.  A problem arises when other people think they know best how you should spend your money or have it taken away and have the government spend it for you even if it is against your principals or agains the law.

It's stunning how quickly those who claim to be "conservative" will start telling others how to live when things are happening that they don't like... 

[mirage1988]

The church raises money thru private donations, not by wage garnishments, penalties and fines and therefore can spend their money as they wish.

[us920669]

I was on our vestry for a while, and it ends up that sometimes you need a loan.  We have a small loan, but we needed the expansion, and because we expanded, we'll be able to pay it off easy.  My wife belongs to a Korean church (Christian) - talk about mega-churches, the Koreans have them, but she hates them.  Her churches are so small they meet in people's houses.

[BUGEYE]

if government didn't confiscate more than half of our money, churches would be able to do the things they should.   as already said, churches encourage, governments discourage.

[sidewinder319]

Why does a religion have to have a Mega-Church? I can not believe Jesus would live in one of these castles while his people huddle under bridges.  These churches are tax exempt properties. This means some one else must pay more taxes to make up for this lost revenue. Jesus often cautioned his followers to give their extra wealth to the poor. What is wrong with a simple house of worship??