45-70 "hot" loading limit in break-action rifles

[jpuke]

I'm looking at H&R and New England Firearms rifles in 45-70 and I'm wondering if anyone knows how hot they can be reloaded for these rifles.  Logic tells me that since they chamber them for the 450 Marlin they'll take the hotter 45-70 loads also.  Anyone have any experience with this?  My goal is to shoot 500 gr paper patched bullets between 1300-1500 fps.

[Prince of Wales]

I cannot give you an exact answer but the normal procedure is to begin at a 10% reduced load and work up watching for pressure signs such as flattened primers or sticky extraction. Best of luck and keep us posted as you go . We all might learn something from this. POW

[EDG]

>>My goal is to shoot 500 gr paper patched bullets between 1300-1500 fps.<<
If you do not use fast burning powders the pressure will not be the limiting factor. Due to recoil , you will probably not shoot many 500 grain bullets once the pressure and velocity exceeds Trapdoor load levels.
ED

[Ed Harris]

You can use any load data listed for the 1886 Winchester and the 1895 Marlin, but NOT loads listed for the Ruger No. 1

[marlinman93]

H&R advertises that their guns are suitable for all modern ammo, so I'd say they will handle pretty stout loads. Due to their light weight, I'd wonder if you would even want to go with anything hotter than factory loads?

[freddogs]

I believe the paperwork with my new H&R Buffalo rifle suggests you can load them to Lever action levels but not to the levels of Rugers or Siamese bolt actions. The NEF forum on yahoo discuss this issue a lot. I've only run 10 rounds of Federal 45/70 300 grain factory ammo through mine so far. It worked fine.

[OhioCruffler]

I'm looking at H&R and New England Firearms rifles in 45-70 and I'm wondering if anyone knows how hot they can be reloaded for these rifles.  Logic tells me that since they chamber them for the 450 Marlin they'll take the hotter 45-70 loads also.  Anyone have any experience with this?  My goal is to shoot 500 gr paper patched bullets between 1300-1500 fps.

I load the 500 grain bullet to near 1550 (guess) fps using surplus 4895.  The other posters are right; the recoil will be the limiting factor.

Cast bullets are lower pressure than same weight jacketed, so I found a lever level load that used 50.0 grains of 4895 and a 500 grain Jacketed bullet.  It is compressed using the Lee cast bullet, so that's about all you could do anyway.  Note that this load may be unsafe in any gun but mine, so you must start low and work up.  Do not exceed listed loads.  etc.

It hurts.  But it carries a lot of authority.

An example/comparison:

An 8.5 pound rifle firing full power 30-'06 will have 14 ft/lbs energy at 10 fps recoil velocity.  this load has 40 ft/lbs at 20 fps.

Larry

[Redhawk1]

jpuke, seeing how you plan to use 500 gr. bullets. Have you thought about using blackpowder in your cartridges? You can load the all the way up to 70 gr. of Goex and push the 500 gr. bullets to 1200 to 1300 fps. We hunted this year with them in our Shiloh Sharps in 45-70. The bullets went through both sides of the deer. That was with pure lead bullets with paper patches. I little more work than smokeless but a blast to shoot. I get my bullets form Montana Bullet Works at a great price. Also you would not have to worry about high pressure at all. Good luck and have fun.  

[Leftoverdj]

Prince, you can't use normal pressure signs on the .45-70 for the Handi. You are way over the redline before they show up.

On the other hand, the Handi is easily safe with anything the Marlin will take. In practice, the rifle ain't the limiting factor, your shoulder is. The Handi is a light rifle and it kicks like a goaded mule with the heavier bullets.

[handirifle]

jpuke
You are correct in your assessment of the strength of the action.  It will handle the 450 loads and up to an including the modern Marlin level of 45-70 loads as well.

With the bullet weight and velocities you mentioned it will be no problem at all.  My buffalo Classic has been pushed much harder and the 45-70 will hurt you before it hurts the gun.  Not to say you couldn't over do it just not at Marlin levels.

It will also handle Buffalo Bore and Garrett ammo as well and these are very hot for the big bore gun.

As someone else mentioned, many use the black powder as well, especially with the PP bullets.  Most find the slower velocities best for accuracy with cast bullets.

[dpastor]

jpuke

Ed Harris has it right.  NEF will tell you the same thing when you call.  Murphy's 37th law:  Maximum tolerable recoil is directly related to the expense of replaced dental work.

aka Trapdoor