Advice on 308 hunting bullets with specific characteristics

[cpileri]

Sirs and Ma'ams,
I am looking for .308 hunting bullets (for TX whitetail and feral pigs) in the 150-165-ish gr weight range that are:
1. flat based, and
2. have the longest bearing surface
 
not necessarily the largest bearing surface, but the longest. that is, they can have friction reducing bands or lube grooves, but the distance from the (flat) base to the beginning of the ogive is what I want to be long.
 
I just dont have lots of bullets around to measure.  anyone have a selection, even without actual measurements, but just for a visual comparison? 
i am thinking this bullet will have to be non-lead, and Barnes TSX or Hornady GMX would be great.  But they are all boattailed in the weight range I need.
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,237809.0.html
For what its worth, this is in reference to this thread:
 
Thanks,
C-
 

[streak]

Any particular reson you are restricting your bullet weight to 150-165 grain?
In the .308 Win I have always found the 180 gr RN to be the cat`s meow on deer and hogs!
Either the Rem 180 RN Corelokt or Hrndy RN.

[cpileri]

Yes, Sir. its because the rifle is a semi-auto and it was designed around ~150gr projectiles; though it does seem to fire 168's OK.
As I mentioned in the thread (linked) ; I am not married to the idea of 150-168gr bullets.  But I was thinking for action timing as well as subjecting the action to increased abuse purposes, totry to stick to lighter if possible.  If NOT possible, then there is a flat based TSX in 220gr!
(But is there a 308 load for it??)
 
thanks for the reply, sir!
 
C-

[necchi]

The only thing that comes to mind is the Sierra Pro-Hunter.
Round nose #2135
Spire Point #2130 http://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=bullets&page=rifle&caliberID=9
 
The flat base is the part what's gonna gitchya. You could move up too the 180's.
I don't think you'll find a full copper in a flatbase
I guess Speer has several that are flat base,,
[/color]http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballistics/default.aspx?caliber=7&usage=1&brand=0&firearm=1

[oneoldsap]

                  For many years I used the Speer 165 Gr, RN in the .308 , but for some reason they discontinued it . Probably didn't sell enough of them ! They were the cats pajamas on whitetail . At 2700 FPS they would Pulp both shoulders and be under the hide on the off side ! I never had a Deer take another step after being hit with one .  Now no one makes a 165 Gr. RN , too bad they worked great !

[336SC]

                  For many years I used the Speer 165 Gr, RN in the .308 , but for some reason they discontinued it . Probably didn't sell enough of them ! They were the cats pajamas on whitetail . At 2700 FPS they would Pulp both shoulders and be under the hide on the off side ! I never had a Deer take another step after being hit with one .  Now no one makes a 165 Gr. RN , too bad they worked great !

I'm in complete agreement with oneoldsap!  I also used the 165gr RN Speer in my .308's with total satisfaction!  Have 3 or 4 hundred
squirreled away after they discontinued them.  It's funny but the darn things don't shoot worth a hoot in my 06's, or 300 Savages but my
.308's love em.  One of my finest loads in the .308 was built around the Speer 170gr HCFN @ 2500fps.  This was pre Nosler Ballistic
tip days and my load with 170gr Speer really opened up on deer yet always exited.  Never found a 165gr or 170gr bullet in any deer I
shot.  I won't use the 170gr Speer in my 30-30's as I feel it is too "tough" of a bullet for the 30-30 after my experience with them in the .308 Win.
336SC

[streak]

Yes, Sir. its because the rifle is a semi-auto and it was designed around ~150gr projectiles; though it does seem to fire 168's OK.
As I mentioned in the thread (linked) ; I am not married to the idea of 150-168gr bullets.  But I was thinking for action timing as well as subjecting the action to increased abuse purposes, totry to stick to lighter if possible.  If NOT possible, then there is a flat based TSX in 220gr!
(But is there a 308 load for it??)
 
thanks for the reply, sir!
 
C-

What type of semi-auto are you shooting?

[Lloyd Smale]

i have to wonder why your looking for a longer bullet?  Ive got an ar10 and it does its best with accuracy with sierra 150 flat based bullets and nosler 150 ballistic tips. I shoots tsx barnes into minute of barn door. One thing you have to keep in mind is if your gun has a twist that is best with 150s the longer tsx/gmx/nos solids are going to be longer and because of it will need a faster twist to stablilize. A 150 tsx is at least as long as a 165 grain cup and core and most likely as long as a 180. Another BIG problem is i dont know about you but i like to take my ar10 out and just blast with it and using tsx bullets would make it just a bit expensive.

[cpileri]

To address a couple questions:  rifle is a Saiga in 308 Win.
Longer bearing surface was a recommendation by Mr. veral Smith, see:  http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,237809.0.html  because of the large chamber throat (evidenced by expanded casemouths); so as to have the crimped casemouth, after reloading, act as a support and the long bearing surfact engage the rifling before the casemouth "lets go" of the long bullet.  Thereby, the bullet will enter the bore straight and hopefully improve accuracy.
Most all these recommendations come from that thread.
 
Rate of twist for Saiga is 1-in-12.5", and most agree that this is good out to ~170gr projectiles.  But if 200gr's will be accurate, i'l shoot those- no problem.  I just wantt to stick with what will probably work before i head off into 'last resort' territory.
 
So i am looking for the best one; the limiting factor seems to be the flat base.
Thanks all!
C-

[Bigeasy]

After reading you correspondence with Veral, I would suggest you first lead lap the barrel as you planned, then try again with regular factory loads.  You might find accuracy has improved quite a bit.  Bear in mind, most AK's, unless accurized, will never be one inch guns.  A chamber cast will tell you what you really have going on.  If your chamber does have an over sized neck, and a barrel closer to .310 / .311 then .308, then you might want to try using a .310 / .311 bullet.  There are quite a few out there to choose from, including a big selection from Sierra.  Another option, that might be a good idea in the long run, is to just re-barrel the rifle with a properly dimensioned barrel.  It would not be that expensive in the long run, if the gun is otherwise a keeper.
 
Larry

[Hooker]

Nosler 165gr Ballistic tip  boat tail.
The average over all length of this bullet is 1.385 the boat tail design and the ballistic tip put a lot of weight forward of the ogive.
This bullet also is very accurate and has been very stable for me out to 500yds.
It also has performed perfectly on deer and hogs from 60 yds to just under 400yds in my 308.

Pat

[cpileri]

I do have a tendency to think ahead to the "what if" steps.  But, yes, my plan is to lap the bore first then see how she shoots.
 
the Nosler 165's are on my list of possibles, if the not-flat-based shape is deemed OK based on a question I have asked Mr. Smith (re: bearing surface, etc); otherwise the Partitions in 165 are FB. 
 
So are these:  http://site.cuttingedgebullets.com/bullet_detail?id=29  expensive, but flat based and loooong bearing surface.  I am googling for terminal performance and if its acceptable, I may try some. 
 
Other choices (if my "what if (lapping doesnt work well enough)" situation comes to be):
.311's:
Barnes 150gr TSX (for the 30-30): http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=913729
Cast Bullet: sure there's this one: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=467736 but if I come to cast, I will almost certainly pay LBT for a custom bullet to match his own recommendations)
Speer Hot-Cor: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=282179
 
.309's: ?? havent found any that scream 'try me!'
 
.308's:
Barnes 150 TSX: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=388970
 
Thanks again to all advisors!
C-
 
 

[rickt300]

I would be tempted to get in touch with the manufacturer and tell them the problem. sounds like a factory defect to me.

[necchi]

I do have a tendency to think ahead to the "what if" steps.
 

 Ya, with all respect, I'm beginning to see that come out in this thread. I guess I don't really git what your original question is going to gain or what your goal is with the Original Thing,,
,,What's to be gained (or not) with bearing surface variations?
  Sure the drag factor and possibly rifling engagment, but what can't be compensated or adjusted using the charge as the variable in conjunction with bearing surface?
 
 And you started with flat base. What was the goal with that?

[TommyD]

At the moment I can't recall if it is flat based or not, but the 168 Barnes tipped triple shock (TTSX) worked just for me last year. Two whitetails at 117 yards each dropped like the proverbial stone. My 308 Win Encore pistol launched these beauties at 2400 fps and delivered them both right into the boiler room. Even with the reduced velocity of the pistol, they left large exit wounds, so I presume they expanded even though no bullets were recovered.

The load with Varget powder was tuned for my Kimber rifle but the state legislature again failed to legalize rifle hunting in my county. Fortunately the load also gave acceptable accuracy in my Encore and the deer never knew what hit them. Maybe this fall I'll get to use the Kimber. :-))

Tom

[RaySendero]

Sirs and Ma'ams,
I am looking for .308 hunting bullets (for TX whitetail and feral pigs) in the 150-165-ish gr weight range that are:
1. flat based, and
2. have the longest bearing surface
 
not necessarily the largest bearing surface, but the longest. that is, they can have friction reducing bands or lube grooves, but the distance from the (flat) base to the beginning of the ogive is what I want to be long.
 
.....
Thanks,
C-

C-,
 
Even though your criteria would not be mine,  I'll propose 3 options that fit your criteria:
 
1)  Old school cup and core flat base round nose bullets.
 
2)  The newer solid copper bullets.
 
3) and MY recommendation - Look hard at the Swift "A"s

[BBF]

Look at a 200 gr Speer SP !

[cpileri]

Thanks! I appreciate everyone who is sharing their information.
Mr. TommyD:  i keep looking at the TSX's, and as i said before, I want the TSX to work really bad.  They just work so well on game!  I love them! But so far they have not fired accurately in my rifle(*).  Even the boattailed ones are only 'slightly' so, and have a nice long bearing surface so that the projectile will still be held square to the bore when the projectile engages the rifling as my rifling begins 0.17" from the case mouth- most any bullet has a >0.17" bearing surface: thus meeting Mr. Smith's advice for helping accuracy with an oversized chamber throat. (**)  So I am not sure if his flat base recommendation has to do with an even pushing surface for the expanding gas, or obturation of the bullet base, or something else. 
 
Mr. RaySendero, I have also looked at the Swift A-frames.  I know they are similar in construction to the Nosler partitions.  DO the "A's" have an open base? how do they perform on game animals?
 
So my issues are that I have 2-3 variables going on at once (***), and am taking the advice of Mr. Veral Smith, as written in the linked threeads; someone whose vast knowledge and experience with this matter soundly dwarfs my own.
 
Mr. Scatterbrain, have you loaded and fired the 200gr in a Saiga 308? or any semi-auto 308 even?  I'd love to hear how they performed.  Also, your experience perceived recoil and wear-and-tear on the rifle itself would interest me, esp. because the 200gr TSX's are also flat based!  I always thought them too heavy for the rifle, but if they work; well, i am good with that.
 
Many thanks again to all who have shared advice and experience!
Have a blessed and peaceful Sunday!
C-
 
(*): if after lapping the TSX shoots well, then I am done; problem solved. 
 
(**): that is, that the rifling will be engaged by the bullet squarely before the casemouth 'lets go' of the bullet. the casemouth acting as a support for the bullet.  Normally then chamber would do this, but mine is oversized.
 
(***): variables to my ultimate accurate hunting load are; 1. oversize chamber throat (.345-.346) 2. bore constriction of .001 at the muzzle end of my barrel (from land/groove of .302/3095 until the last inch or so then tightens to .302/3085), and 3. possible inherent slop in my rifle (which i have not yet addressed, but the sad possibility has occurred to me)
 
 
 

[BBF]

cpileri
I didn't realize you are writing about a 308 Win. Your original posts asked for information on 308 bullets.
 
My experience with the 200 gr bullet is for several 30-06'es and one 300 Win Mag.
 
In the 30-06 group were two bolt action, one pump and one semi-auto rifles the latter two being Remington's. In all of those the same load with H-4831 brought good to excellent groups.
 
The Speer bullet would sit deep into the powder space of the 308 Win case unless you have a standard action allowing you to set the bullet much further out.
 
Using Win 748 or 760 if you have enough room in the case for the slower powder should produce 2400 fps. Both powders are in the medium range for the Burn/Speeding Rate.
 
BTW My SiL uses the 180 gr Speer Spitzer in a Rem 788 with the 18 1/2" barrel successfully on Moose.
 
 

[mcwoodduck]

Any particular reson you are restricting your bullet weight to 150-165 grain?
In the .308 Win I have always found the 180 gr RN to be the cat`s meow on deer and hogs!
Either the Rem 180 RN Corelokt or Hrndy RN.

I agree.  I read that you have a semi auto.  But the round nose bullets have great effects on game.
If you can get 150 grain round nose soft points for 30-30 then I think you would be ahead of the game.
I have tried almost every bullets on deer made for the 308 and the 180 grain Round nose soft points seem magical with their effects on game an the super high tech bullets do not act like the bolt of lightining they advertise being.
A couple years ago I needed to use 150 grain NON lead bullets that are super high tech bit did not show it on the hog.  he was dead but got back up and started to run, Got another one and stayed down.  The heavy round nose bullets are the start of the brush busting myth.  The knock down game and keep them down making deer and hogs easy to find where the pointed bullets allow the deer or hog to run off a little ways.

[BBF]

Both Sierra and Speer have a better B.C. then Hornady, however Hornady is the only one that has a crimp groove.
 
BTW I've seen Rem 150 gr RN(30-30) advertised in bulk packages but never the 180 RN's.

[cpileri]

Sirs!
Thanks again!
Yes, I should have mentioned the exact chambering up front.  I started more broadly to capture as many responses as possible, but i then run the risk of getting info that I can't really use.(*)
As for seating depth on the 308 w/200gr's, Barnes manual #4 does list loads for it with the same COAL as the others; so it seems they have taken that into account.  So although a last resort, the 200's are not off the list entirely.  I do also have a 30-06 bolt that shoots well, but if I need to take her after tougher game, the 200's are an option; and so purchasing them would not be a total waste in any case.
About the roundnoses, you know what? As soon as I told a firend, a hunter of 50+ yrs experience, about this he immediately said, "That's because you haven't tried Remington Core-Loks" So some Rem Core-Loks are coming to the range with me tomorrow.  Are the Hornady RNSP's open base?
(I found my answer to the Swift A-frames. Yes, they are open based and flat)
Sincerely,
C-
 
(*) I have to sincerely thank you both for reading the threads through.  One thing I dont care too much for is reading posts where the author seems not to have read the original question.  That's one reason I myself tend not to answer threads that are many many pages long even if I am interested in it: I know I wont wade through 5 or 10 or 50 pages of prior posts.  Thus I would risk being redundant and/or off point, so I avoid them.

[243dave]

I had a fellow once tell me, if you can't get a 180gr sierra pro-hunter to shoot well in a 308 it never will, and I believe he was right.  I know it is the easiest bullet (hunting or match grade) to get to group well I've ever used.  In a custom barreled encore I developed a load that would shoot 5 shots into the .2's regularly(no neck turning or anything special done).  It always bothered me because I could never get the beautiful streamlined match bullets from berger or sierra to shoot close to that.  The 180 pro-hunters work well on deer but when punching paper at over 500yds the steam bleeds off quickly then gravity and wind starts to do its thing.  Try the pro-hunters, they may not be the most accurate in every rifle but it seems they do well in just about every 30 caliber I've tried. 
Oh yeah, in the 308 win, load it on top of Varget powder, good stuff !!
Dave
     

[BBF]

cipileri:
 
Hornady bullets are basically cup and core with  an internal configuration of the jacket to control expansion and are not open base.
 
 
Dave: As much as I like some Sierra bullets I suspect the 180 gr 30 cal bullets not expanding well with
 30-06 velocities on smaller deer. A friend of mine lost several Black tailed Deer in British Columbia in very dense brush.
 
A dog would have been a real boon there.  IMO a good dog is a worthwhile investment anyway.